Let's compare: Colosseum UB's

[Permanganate]

On topic stuff first: yes, the colosseum UBs are mismatched. UBs of the same building should have about the same power, since they come at the same time, unless they're compensating for a bad UU or leader. That doesn't describe the Phalanx or Alexander.

Dikes are not particularly overpowered, IMO; they have a large effect but they're an Industrial Age building. The earlier a bonus comes, the more effect it has...the dike is only as powerful as some of the earlier buildings are for their eras.

...and secondly 1 tile Islands are very useful for everyone

Mildly useful, yes, but they can hardly build anything. Even their lighthouse/harbor/customs house will take a long time without spending money or population to rush.

 

[Thalatta]

Well, as for 1 and 2, playing on Emperor I very often find myself having happiness problems at that point of the game... Why? Simply because there are a lot of games in which I can't nab enough happiness resources. Sometimes I'm not near the jungle, sometimes I have to expand at a distance to get half decent cities and upkeep costs stifle my early economy, preventing me from expanding more than a few cities, sometimes I am dealing with an early war and don't have time to research all those happiness goodies while catapults are a must...

Particularly as an expansive Civ like the Mayans, I find my growth very often far outstrips my ability to maintain happiness in my cities. For them, truth be told, I'd often rather take that +3 happiness to even the myriad benefits of the Odeon. Not to say it's better, just that there are times I'd rather have a ball court than an Odeon, and much rather have it than the Garden.

Just curious, what difficulty/map types do you usually play on? How many civs and what map size? Do you play unrestricted leaders? I usually play Big_and_small on huge, emperor, no unrestricted leaders, marathon, 15 players, and happiness can be a real problem if I don't nab my early religion. All of these factors, and simple luck, can have a huge effect on your happiness situation. Just playing Shaka on those settings last night I had happiness issues flying out my wazoo.

*chuckle*

I play VERY similar settings. I love big and small, like large/huge maps, emperor seems about right for me, I don't use unrestricted leaders either, epic/marathon speed and I like things crowded. I also am a fan of expansive leaders and try to settle by rivers as much as possible (Levees are awesome! ).

I do manage to trade for a fair few happiness resources, but I find that I have little to no happiness issues outside of war after I get a religion going and/or build the Pyramids, which I usually do by 500 BC. During war I build Theatres first and they are often sufficient. I often have health issues as I approach Guilds and then again when I get to Assembly Line.

I think the three are fairly balanced, though, and seem to work well with their leaders - I find myself building Colosseums rarely, but the UBs often. Hammurabi is non-expanisive, but then has a building with +2 health; Pacal is expansive, so gets happiness; Alex and Pericles get some synergy with philosophical.


As for Dikes...well, all I know is that Moai Statues + Ironworks never worked better.

 

[Fugl]

odeons the most useless of em 3 imo

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^ Exactly, it depends on how much you value culture.. if you don't value it that much in your game, then the Odeon is basically +1-2 happy, slightly worse than the Ball court

As for the Gardens.. health has been strengthened in BTS with the massive pollution of the Industrial Era

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

If you don't value culture, then don't play the greeks.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

^precisely, it depends on strategy +situation

 

[dragodon64]

I rank them (I'll explain why) as:
Garden
Ball Court
Odeon

Usually i find health a bigger problem than happiness. For health there are resources, expansive, env. and grocer/harbor. For happiness there is religion, temple, cathedral, market, charismatic, HR, Rep., Nationhood, FR, luxury+col+theatre+broadcast, etc.
Odeon gives a bit more happines, but with focus on culture and artist chances. I am a cultural master with religion+temple in every city, lib in most, etc. And if i have food to spare on specialists it will be engineers or scientists not artists

 

[the Intricacy]

What you should be asking is "Why the eurocentricism Firaxis? Why does Western civ get favored, every single time?"

 

[dragodon64]

What you should be asking is "Why the eurocentricism Firaxis? Why does Western civ get favored, every single time?"

What does that have to do with anything here?

 

[Pikkis]

What does that have to do with anything here?

I guess he thinks that Odeon is overpowered compared to other Colosseum UBs, and it is overpowered because Greece is a European civilization, while Babylonia and the Mayas aren't. I personally totally disagree with that statement (Western civs get favoured), because many of those among the players most favoured (and so the most profitable) civs and leaders (Darius I and Asoka for example) are not European, meaning that Firaxis doesn't favor European civs.

 

[AfterShafter]

I guess he thinks that Odeon is overpowered compared to other Colosseum UBs, and it is overpowered because Greece is a European civilization, while Babylonia and the Mayas aren't. I personally totally disagree with that statement (Western civs get favoured), because many of those among the players most favoured (and so the most profitable) civs and leaders (Darius I and Asoka for example) are not European, meaning that Firaxis doesn't favor European civs.

I don't think that the Odeon is more powerful than the Garden... And the Mayans in general rock the bloody house. What's more, Persia just got given one of the "forbidden" trait combos - taken away from a Western civilization! It's not like the western Civilizations are getting all the breaks - though, this really shouldn't be discussed here, so I'm done with it.

 

[dragodon64]

I also wouldn't call Greece a western civ and barely even a European civ. They really were part of the mediterranean world along with Rome, Egypt, Phoenicia, Carthage, etc.

 

[TheLastOne36]

I also wouldn't call Greece a western civ and barely even a European civ. They really were part of the mediterranean world along with Rome, Egypt, Phoenicia, Carthage, etc.

Another thing i hate. I think Greece represents all of Greek history, including the times it was revolting for the ottomans. So i think that it's ancient history shouldn't be the only part of it's history represented.

 

[MrFelony]

The dike is the only UB that I considered unbalanced. 1-tile island cities are next to useless to most civs except for the resources they provide, but having a dike in a 1 tile island city turns it into a decent source of production especially with forge/factory/power

how many 1 tile water cities are you founding? how much effort do you have to put into making them awesome? When are you actually capable of making dikes? dikes are great, but they're not very over powered. but i guess it also depends on the kind of game you're playing. if you're playing fractal with high sea levels i guess it can be, but then compare them to the other sea civs.

 

[hoopsnerd]

how many 1 tile water cities are you founding? how much effort do you have to put into making them awesome? When are you actually capable of making dikes? dikes are great, but they're not very over powered. but i guess it also depends on the kind of game you're playing. if you're playing fractal with high sea levels i guess it can be, but then compare them to the other sea civs.

1-tile water cities are pretty sweet now for commerce actually, especially with the trade route changes in BtS. The problem is that they have trouble building defensive units AND buildings on their own, which is where the Dike comes in. I haven't tried Dutch yet but the 1-tile water cities i've founded with Carthage getting a Cothon early have been cash cows even when they're size 1.

 

[Antilogic]

I build most of my military units, including defensive units, in already existing production cities. When I build those few small production cities, all defensive units come in with the settlers and then are replaced by neighbors. Then, I build only commerce buildings and later wealth in the city.

 

[dragodon64]

Those island cities exist more for other cities benefit than their own because of the trade route.

Off-topic: how do I include a link to my thread in my signature?

 

[SevenSpirits]

One reason the Odeon is good is that you can conquer a city with a Colosseum and immediately have a culture building in it. (All buildings that were already producing culture get destroyed, but Colosseums don't produce culture.)

If it weren't for this, I would much rather have the happy/health than three culture and artist slots.

 

[DigitalBoy]

The culture can be huge. In my Greek warmongering sprees, odeons are among the better options for culture in new cities, especially in games where I'm neglecting religion. Artist slots are definitely situational, but they have come in handy, even if only for slots in great people farms.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Ball Court seems generally better than Odeon.

People who are obsessed with having everything be equally good drive me nuts. It's a plus for Civ, in my view, that some of the leaders and unique units and buildings are better than others. More variety. If you think a particular advantage is too large or too small, you can always play at a higher or lower level of difficulty, to compensate.