Let's make iron relevant again

[Boris Gudenuf]

The Iron Relevance problem is two-fold:
Making the Iron-dependant units meaningful (Swordsmen)
Making Iron more generally useful later in the game

Making Swordsmen more useful doesn't require buffing the Swordsmen, just giving the other units their Historical Penalties:

Pikemen: get a -33% modifier on Hill, Forest, Jungle, or Marsh tile
Catapults, Trebuchets: -50% against Units of any kind

That makes the Siege Weapons strictly city attackers, and makes Pikemen very vulnerable to the more maneuverable swordsmen in any kind of rough terrain - which was historically true.

Next, Iron is not required for cannon. Most of the early cannon were made of Bronze or Brass, and (wrought) Iron was only used for heavy siege mortars and naval guns (so it is correct to require Iron for Frigates, Ships of the Line, and Ironclads)

The massive use of Iron is for Railroads - you cannot build them without 1000s of tons of the stuff. Thus, even if you can squeak by without it in the Classical and Renaissance Eras, (be friendly, keep your head down) you will need it in the Industrial Era - but by then you've had a bunch of turns to find some sources.

 

[killmeplease]

how to make RR require iron?
maybe make 1 (or 2?) unit of iron is being 'blocked' while a worker is constructing RR.
so if 3 workers construct RR at the same time, 3 (6?) units of iron are blocked

or permanent 1/3 iron per tile maintenance

 

[Knut_Are_M]

You can give svordsmen the cover promotion.
They die like flies to archers, and they are slow.

You can also make the forge require 1 iron.
You can also make the circus require 1 horse and give +2 happiness if ivory is nearby.
And let them be buildable in all cities.
That way the resourses are relevant for a longer time. A very long time if you ics.

 

[The_Quasar]

The problem I have with making iron more relevant is that it comes at a time when it makes a huge difference if you don't have it. At present, you can get by using alternative units. If you make Swordsmen and/or other iron units too powerful, it could break the game, meaning that if you found you didn't have it, you would have little choice but to restart (as the local opposition would likely have some, but with them having iron units, it would be difficult, if not impossible, at the higher spawn rate of the AI at higher levels, to take the necessary cities to get it yourself). Personally, I dislike restarting, it feels like cheating to me, and I would be against any mechanism that would make that virtually a necessity.

Historically, not everyone had iron, so the present situation is reasonably accurate (strange though how I rarely seem to get iron when I play Rome (1 out of 6 games playing Rome)).

I've found that I often have to attack other civs to get iron (or more iron), especially for frigates, and I think that is right (on a side note, how come Frigates need iron and Privateers don't?).

If the Swordsman is to be rebalanced, it should be quite a small change, one that is not game breaking. If that is done, then I would agree.

 

[Mesix]

Iron should really become visible at Mining. This would be about the same as Horses which become visible at Animal Husbandry which the game already has. You should be able to see it, build a mine on it, but not receive the strategic resource until Iron Working is researched.

 

[Mesix]

Another nice change would be to have a few resources which come from buildings and require other resources to be consumed. One example could be a Steel resource which comes from a Steel Mill (building) and requires 1 Iron and 1 Coal resource to build. This Steel resource could then be a key strategic resource in the Industrial Era and later.

 

[Rooftrellen]

The problem I have with making iron more relevant is that it comes at a time when it makes a huge difference if you don't have it. At present, you can get by using alternative units. If you make Swordsmen and/or other iron units too powerful, it could break the game, meaning that if you found you didn't have it, you would have little choice but to restart (as the local opposition would likely have some, but with them having iron units, it would be difficult, if not impossible, at the higher spawn rate of the AI at higher levels, to take the necessary cities to get it yourself). Personally, I dislike restarting, it feels like cheating to me, and I would be against any mechanism that would make that virtually a necessity.

Historically, not everyone had iron, so the present situation is reasonably accurate (strange though how I rarely seem to get iron when I play Rome (1 out of 6 games playing Rome)).

I've found that I often have to attack other civs to get iron (or more iron), especially for frigates, and I think that is right (on a side note, how come Frigates need iron and Privateers don't?).

If the Swordsman is to be rebalanced, it should be quite a small change, one that is not game breaking. If that is done, then I would agree.

The big issue is that we have 2 problems really, and they are connected.

First, iron isn't used for many units or units that are particularly better. Without siege units requiring iron, they and archers can easily get cities to low health which any unit can take, and pikemen are central on the tech tree while longswords are on the bottom and at most 2 techs from being obsoleted by a resourceless unit. That accounts for 2 of only 3 units that require the resource, the last being a ship that may or may not be useful.

Second, iron isn't everywhere, so it might be hard for some civs to get.

I assume that the second reason is why iron is less used and iron units are weaker in comparison now, the first reason. Due to the first reason, I don't care if I get iron so much (in fact I often don't research IW until the industrial era and on a map with water between enemies and myself, sometimes until the modern era depending on how the game is going). Because people don't care as much if they have iron or not, the second thing starts to become a problem when talking about making iron more used again, which leads to the first problem once more...and on we go forever.

That being said, it is a very delicate balancing act, without other resources to balance it out. Later, it might not matter if you don't have oil. You won't get some great naval power, but with aluminum and uranium, you can fight a ground war to get it. If you don't have coal you can build an army to grab some for factories, while lack of aluminum won't stop you from building oil based units like tanks or a modern navy and air force.

Iron isn't balanced by anything else, which makes it harder to give the proper power.

 

[gorillagogo]

The big issue is that we have 2 problems really, and they are connected.

First, iron isn't used for many units or units that are particularly better. Without siege units requiring iron, they and archers can easily get cities to low health which any unit can take, and pikemen are central on the tech tree while longswords are on the bottom and at most 2 techs from being obsoleted by a resourceless unit. That accounts for 2 of only 3 units that require the resource, the last being a ship that may or may not be useful.

Second, iron isn't everywhere, so it might be hard for some civs to get.

I assume that the second reason is why iron is less used and iron units are weaker in comparison now, the first reason. Due to the first reason, I don't care if I get iron so much (in fact I often don't research IW until the industrial era and on a map with water between enemies and myself, sometimes until the modern era depending on how the game is going). Because people don't care as much if they have iron or not, the second thing starts to become a problem when talking about making iron more used again, which leads to the first problem once more...and on we go forever.

That being said, it is a very delicate balancing act, without other resources to balance it out. Later, it might not matter if you don't have oil. You won't get some great naval power, but with aluminum and uranium, you can fight a ground war to get it. If you don't have coal you can build an army to grab some for factories, while lack of aluminum won't stop you from building oil based units like tanks or a modern navy and air force.

Iron isn't balanced by anything else, which makes it harder to give the proper power.

Iron is balanced by horses. Regardless, I don't get the "Iron isn't everywhere so you're screwed if you don't get it" point. How is that any different from previous Civ games? It was a priority to get the early resource techs so you could find out where the iron (or copper in Civ4) was. Same with horses.

The problem, as I see it, is that units requiring resources aren't sufficiently better than non-resource units. Think about trying to get by in Civ4 without metal or horses. There's simply no way you could field a competitive army with just warriors and archers. You'd be hard pressed to survive long enough to get longbows.

Now, you can not just get by but actually warmonger without ever building a unit that requires a resource, at least until you get to oil. That has to be a first for the entire Civ series.

 

[Gucumatz]

I think being able to add an "upgrade" to melee units is sensible. Reinforcing their armour/weapons what not at the cost of an iron. The addition to strength should be percentage wise. I really like that idea - maybe a mod could be done of it?

 

[krc]

I think being able to add an "upgrade" to melee units is sensible. Reinforcing their armour/weapons what not at the cost of an iron. The addition to strength should be percentage wise. I really like that idea - maybe a mod could be done of it?

If you're going to do something like that, the easiest way would probably be to add a building (armorer? blacksmith?) that (i) uses up one iron when you build it, the way factory uses one coal and (2) simply gives an XP boost to certain units built in the city.

 

[TallNSturdy]

The simplest i saw was to make iron visible (but not exploitable) at bronze working. That way one could plan more easily second or third city to grab some iron hex.

I like that idea but I think I would like to add that you would need to scout the tile to find it. Maybe to much but maybe even a resource scout upgrade you can get for the scout, something that can be gotten on the first promotion so a little later in the game you can produce a scout from a barracks town and let it find where you should plant a city for that coal or uranium resource later in the game.

 

[Rooftrellen]

Iron is balanced by horses.

I'm not so sure I agree with that. Mounted units are really generally made for hit and run tactics. They lack firepower for their cost, and they are meant to in general, because they are fast and get to move after attacking, getting them out of the way of danger or allowing a large number of attacks from a single hex.

The later resources are generally at least a bit more open. You can generally get a melee and ranged unit, and most specific counters are less useful and harder to use well in the late game, while the counter to mounted units is the simple pikeman, requiring no resources.

Actually that might be an idea. The late game makes the resourceless unit the basic soldier, while resources you get allow you to build units to better support it. In the early game, resources are used to build the basic unit but the counter specific unit requires nothing.

How would it change the balance of power and usefulness of iron if the spear line required iron and the sword line required nothing?

 

[gorillagogo]

I'm not so sure I agree with that. Mounted units are really generally made for hit and run tactics. They lack firepower for their cost, and they are meant to in general, because they are fast and get to move after attacking, getting them out of the way of danger or allowing a large number of attacks from a single hex.

The later resources are generally at least a bit more open. You can generally get a melee and ranged unit, and most specific counters are less useful and harder to use well in the late game, while the counter to mounted units is the simple pikeman, requiring no resources.

Actually that might be an idea. The late game makes the resourceless unit the basic soldier, while resources you get allow you to build units to better support it. In the early game, resources are used to build the basic unit but the counter specific unit requires nothing.

How would it change the balance of power and usefulness of iron if the spear line required iron and the sword line required nothing?

Sorry, I probably should have been clearer. I was thinking in terms of earlier versions of Civ and how the early resources have always been horses and iron (and copper in Civ4). That's been the traditional counterweight. Up until now, it was ideal to have all the resources but if you were unfortunate and didn't get one, having the other meant you could at least get by and even conquer someone to get the one you were missing.

As for your last point about spears and swords, I'd add that pikes have always required iron in the past. I think it would balance things out a lot if they added an iron requirement for pikes back into the game.

 

[crawf0rd]

I think being able to add an "upgrade" to melee units is sensible. Reinforcing their armour/weapons what not at the cost of an iron. The addition to strength should be percentage wise. I really like that idea - maybe a mod could be done of it?

Heh, read past the first few replies...

 

[Dogmouth]

I like your suggestions. So much so I think I will make a mod changing the exact things you stated. Sadly, I'm not sure I can make an upgrade from a regular unit to an iron-armor one as well as a regular one, but I will try to mimic the rest as closely as possible.
Changes:
Adds iron requirement to cannons
Adds iron requirement to Eiffel Tower, CN Tower
Adds Iron-Armored unit set {Archer, Warrior, Spearman, Composite Bowman, Pikeman, Horseman, Chariot archer} That all have higher combat strength (More so for ranged units for balance purposes)
Adds +1 Gold from iron
Find it on the workshop, the item named "Useful Iron".
edit: Didn't think about factories and what not. Eiffel Tower and CN Tower will require 1 iron to be built.

Sounds great. I'll eagerly anticipate this mod.

 

[Callonia]

I should mention this at least, if you're a backward nation, and someone else is far ahead like, recently entered industrial era.

U could be able to schmooze some iron and horses off them, they'll give it away for free. But toss some coins their way at least and they'll be happy to keep on renewing the deal for you. I've done this few times to dig myself out of hopeless start locations. Provided that you didn't anger the guy with irons and horses and is in industrial era that is.

I forgot which era, cuz its been awhile. But, yeah, there's a time period where iron and horses basically become very low value for the AI. To the point where they actually will give it to you for free even when you're very weak and inferior to them.

 

[theguy8882]

there are good ideas here, but requiring iron for cannons means that if you don't have iron you are screwed in warfare once cannons come around

 

[crawf0rd]

Sounds great. I'll eagerly anticipate this mod.

Oh its finished. The mod name is "Useful Iron".

 

[joebnr]

Wouldn't it be cool if there were a few types of metals - let's say iron and bronze - that combined, were plentiful enough that everyone had a good chance of having some. But there was more bronze than iron, and an "iron swordsman" had +1 or +2 strength versus a "bronze swordsman", even though they cost the same.

 

[Furycrab]

Personally the only "big" change I would like is if they perhaps made discovering Iron one tech earlier so that it's a bit more like how you discover horses before you actually need to actively use them. Only reason is so that when you do decide to do some early Iron play, you haven't "wasted" that much science if you really really fall flat.

I really don't get all this Iron hate though. I use it a decent amount, Longswords are perhaps a bit short lived but I still use it plenty since any Warriors I keep alive and upgrade properly are going to be the backbone to any invasion later and when I don't have any Iron pikes seem to make for very poor substitutes.

Cannons requiring Iron is nice in a scenario situation, it's frustrating in game. They took it off catapults and trebuchets because it was lame to often have to pick between having a strong backline siege unit or some strong melee units. I know the ITR scenario has them requiring Iron, however in that scenario, it's pretty much the endall unit. It's kinda important that some sort of cap be in place.