Let's plan what to include in first playable release!

[Bahmo]

This mod is moving, but slowly, so I feel the best way to gain us a good deal more manpower would be to gain recognition, and the best way to do that would be to release a playable test. So in the interest of getting it all out in time, what should we focus on in particular?

I'm going to finish the Civics as soon as I think of a few more (since no people are helping me think of them), and so we'll need the technology tree to work. Also, try to include all the unique units, buildings, and leaderheads in terms of XML. Art isn't required to make it playable. What we need first is to test what is currently a very lofty mod, and make sure it doesn't crash our computers when we play it.

 

[DVS]

Buddy, this mod is moving fast. Faster than this board. We're not going to release a version that we're not happy with just to try to get a few more people helping us.

I gave you my list of ideas for civics, which frankly I think are great since they are real world civics. Remember, we're building the present, not the future. If you don't want to do the civics, I will.

 

[DVS]

Plus the tech tree has been finished for about two months.


edit: images posted

 

[DVS]

Version 1.0 should include, as you mentioned:

all units
all buildings
all unique units and buildings
all leaders

plus

I'd say we can't release anything before finishing at very least our war escalation and weapons licenses features, as well as a modification to the way the AI uses nukes.


People holding their breath and waiting for a public release right away will be disappointed. We're not going to release something that sucks for the sake of getting something public.

 

[DVS]

Although you are right that we could use another dedicated modder or two.

 

[DVS]

Government
Parliamentary democracy
Presidential republic
Military junta
Religious theocracy
Anarachism

Economic System
Free Market
State Capitalism
21st Century Socialism
Communism
Kleptocracy

Media
Corporate
State run
Independent
State censored

Tax System
Capital Gains only
Progressive Tax
Flat Tax
Regressive tax
Tax free


Population Control
Totalitarian
Police State
Constitutional
Libertarian

 

[sheep21]

DVS, for once a post which I wholeheartedly agree on those civis are bang on, i love it!

this will be a great mod

 

[Mattygerst]

Question:

I don't know that it is exactly relevant...but I was wondering if you had ideas for the positives and negatives for each of those civics AND if we were going to incorporate the AI with a "preference" for certain civics that kept certain ideologies in tune with the real world (and as the human player would provide a penalty for switching to an ideology that was completely out of line with your people's wishes. This is possible, more or less, because Rhye has developed a system where mixing and matching civic types incorrectly produces instability).

I could be wrong, but, it is my opinion that certain peoples of the world prefer a certain system of government/civics (for example, free market type systems have never really been something that the Russian peoples as a whole have taken to - as they seem to fair much better with a stronger central government, despite the western world's thoughts and beliefs).

It would seem a bit weird to have a religious theocracy in the USA, for example...

 

[DVS]

Question:

I don't know that it is exactly relevant...but I was wondering if you had ideas for the positives and negatives for each of those civics AND if we were going to incorporate the AI with a "preference" for certain civics that kept certain ideologies in tune with the real world (and as the human player would provide a penalty for switching to an ideology that was completely out of line with your people's wishes. This is possible, more or less, because Rhye has developed a system where mixing and matching civic types incorrectly produces instability).

I could be wrong, but, it is my opinion that certain peoples of the world prefer a certain system of government/civics (for example, free market type systems have never really been something that the Russian peoples as a whole have taken to - as they seem to fair much better with a stronger central government, despite the western world's thoughts and beliefs).

It would seem a bit weird to have a religious theocracy in the USA, for example...

Yes I agree.

I think the plan is to have ideologies influence which civics a country has. Ideologies are going to be our replacement for religion.

I don't know how to make this work exactly. If you have an understanding of how we can make the AI have a preference for certain civics depending on which ideologies are in its cities, please lend a hand.

 

[Mattygerst]

yeah.

I didn't really mean only ideologies with civ preference.

anyway - it is possible to make civs "prefer" a certain type of civic over another, and it is possible to provide a penalty for mixing & matching 2 types of civics that should not correspond with each other.

honestly - the best person to ask about this would be Rhye. He has the best mod in terms of stabilizing civics with their civ, and to get in on this idea, Rhye has the best mind to approach for this information.

Which brings all of this to where it is heading:

Rhye has a system of "stability" in his mod which is very useful, yet I'm not positive his exact system of stability works well with World 2009.

With that, and to make the mod even more workable, I propose an idea.

Stability (such as Rhye's, yet a softer, less-demanding stability).

In Rhye's and Fall of Civ, if your civ becomes too unstable, it descends into civil war and you are left with only your capital. Now, for this, I don't exactly think that level of force is necessary, but, a softer version is certainly needed.

With that in mind: If civs use civics that do not mess, there should be stability hits. Anarchy (switching civs), should provide permanent stability hits. Wars as an aggressor nation should provide stability hits. Large military losses should provide instability.

Other things that are good (golden ages, gifts to fellow civs, etc.) should provide positive stability points. Having correct civics positive stability. Going to war against an aggressor nation (i.e. when the AI asks for help in a defensive war) should provide good stability.

All of this IS workable - and the man to inquire is Rhye.

With that knowledge: stability should not be as harsh as in RFC. Maybe when you get too unstable, many of your cities descend into anarchy for a large number of turns & many units are disbanded akin to lack of funds/unhappiness. Or even cities have a higher % chance of rebelling and joining a nearby civ that has a good amount of culture present in the city.

All of this keeps the player on top of things...and doesn't allow for a tyrant to take control of a country and represents the people rebelling against the tyrannical leader...

Any thoughts/expansion/contractions of this idea?...

 

[DVS]

I like the idea. We don't really have anyone available to work on this right now though.

I still haven't played around with the RevolutionsDCM mod that has been merged in. I believe this involved some sort of stability rating. Cities can rebel and break off from your civ. I wonder if we still need anything more? I can't say, I haven't tried it.

Right now as far as I know we have one programmer who is going to be working on our economic related ideas, and (hopefully) one more who is going to tack a crack at some of our basic war features. If anyone else with the required skills wants to volunteer to take a crack at this, I would happy to see it included.

 

[Joecoolyo]

I like the idea. We don't really have anyone available to work on this right now though.

I still haven't played around with the RevolutionsDCM mod that has been merged in. I believe this involved some sort of stability rating. Cities can rebel and break off from your civ. I wonder if we still need anything more? I can't say, I haven't tried it.

Right now as far as I know we have one programmer who is going to be working on our economic related ideas, and (hopefully) one more who is going to tack a crack at some of our basic war features. If anyone else with the required skills wants to volunteer to take a crack at this, I would happy to see it included.

I've played a couple Revolutions games, it basically works if that cities are angry, they have a chance to rebel from you in a couple ways, either rise a new civ, civil war (barbs will appear) or join another civ. YOu can quell rebellions by paying them off, forcing more culture and happiness into the cities, or by pure force. I think this system is better than Rhye's (in Rhyes, a civil war means every city declares independence no matter how happy they are).

 

[Bahmo]

I'm still going to do the Civics. I think I only need one more idea for a legal civic; the one I have planned is the utopian one.

 

[DVS]

Let me know if you need any techs for it.

I would suggested the Sustainability tech as the one to require for the utopian civic(s).

 

[DVS]

If you're looking for suggestions (another legal civic), post what you have already.

 

[Bahmo]

I have the last two Legal Civics decided. One is "Martial Law," which speeds military production and allows drafting, trades culture for espionage, decreases war-weariness, and grants two health points for jails, at the cost of one happiness; the second is something like "Mandatory Fair Treatment," whose effect I have not decided upon yet, but that's my choice.

Now, here's one last thing. I've adopted the official suggestion to use media civics in the place of religion civics, but I don't know how to change the name so that they're called "Media" civics. Any help would be appreciated. Also, I still haven't done "membership" civics, as I lack the knowledge of how to do that, too; plus I do not know which organizations are included.

 

[DVS]

Sounds great. Maybe Equality, mandated equality, social justice, something like that as the name for mandatory fair treatment, if you are looking to change it.

I will look in to which files have to be edited to change the civic names.

I'm not sure what you are referring to by the membership civics, please enlighten me. I have not spent any time thinking about civics in a while, I probably knew but forgot. Are you talking about trade organizations?

 

[Bahmo]

Could be trade organizations, or just legal ones. Basically, some of the staff (I think Niknaks was one) proposed that we do something similar to Fall From Heaven II's Overcouncil and Undercouncil, with respect to whether a state was a member of such groups as NATO, NAFTA, Mercosur, etc. I'll look into FFH's coding to see if I can figure out how to do that, but meanwhile some help would be appreciated.

 

[DVS]

You're thinking about our trade organizations feature. We have a programmer trying to figure out how to make this work.

This will not be ready for 1.0, so I would say, don't have a civic group for it. We can always add it later, there is no limit on how many civic options we can have.

 

[Bahmo]

Can you give me one more media civics.