Let's talk about opening moves

[ShinigamiKenji]

Another thing: Is it me or do the Congo and Roman UUs not get a chance to shine in Emperor and above? You pretty much don't need swordsmen at all, all you need is a kajillion archers and 1 or 2 warriors... by the time you can make another push (possibly with crossbowmen) the time for swordsmen to shine has passed.

When walls are up, most civs need cavalry units, because they can come to the frontlines faster and don't need Iron (harder to get than horses, in my opinion, and even without horses you can use Heavy Chariots).

Rome don't need that, since their Legions are either on the frontline, or can get there faster due to free roads between cities (which makes them ignore terrain between cities, at least). Legions don't need Iron too, and are so strong that 3 of them might take a walled city without siege engines. You also free up the production you'd use for cavalry for other things, such as districts.

 

[Bowman in a Bad Mood]

Good point teks. Turn advantage is so important in this game that cavalry come with a huge edgr, and you'd expect melee and anti-cav to have some "turn advantage" back through a lower cog cost. But no...

 

[diamond geezer]

Interesting stuff, typically on deity I'll go with two scouts, for those goody huts, 1st envoy & compulsory settler stealing. Then builder to finish craftsmanship for the 50% off army sale usually in time for either barbs or ai rush.

So that's 3 units built and you still have only your starting Warrior? I've definitely had games where that would have seen me cleared by the AI; twice I've had two AI Civs declare surprise wars before my third build. Not to mention the barbarians which you might trigger with your Scouts.

 

[camomilk]

The last couple games I've had success with Scout -> Slinger -> Builder -> Settler. Then I wait until I get the +50% unit production policy, and churn out a bunch of Warriors and Slingers for as long as it is active. I am not playing on Deity though.

 

[Quillan]

I'd like to know what happens when the Barbarian Horsemen come calling, or you find one of the aggressive Civs nearby. The earliest I've been attacked is before my third slinger was built. As the little barbarian said to the big barbarian, "Dad, that Emperor's got no clothes!"

Still, at least your Scouts might be reincarnated as Builders for Monty, I suppose. So it's not all bad.

One of the advantages of building scouts and using your warrior is you can reveal and take down nearby barbs before they become a problem. It seems too many people are waiting for trouble to come to them rather than nipping it in the bud early. When I do have a bad barb situation because I didn't clear the camp or stop the scout and they have horses of course you deviate from exploration, pump out a couple of slingers/archers and push them back. Same with the AI - if you're next to a bad one then be flexible . I only remember one game where I was swarmed by sumeria before I could react and gg.

The opportunity cost of NOT scouting is too much to give up. Goody huts / cs free envoys / situational awareness are the most powerful early game resources imo (other than starting on good terrain ). Consider the folks who builder slinger slinger etc --- you are likely giving up a lot for that. Meeting a cultural cs = monument, meeting a science is a LOT of science for early game, religious gives you that early pantheon with the flexibility that brings, and the prod cs, well who doesn't like free production.

 

[Victoria]

You forgot the free builder and free population or the double eureka.
However, if you are going to build an army and attack, slinger, slinger slinger also makes sense because time does matter to get in before city walls.
There is no one answer. I certainly use all the strats here from time to time. Its great.

 

[Noblebenj]

So that's 3 units built and you still have only your starting Warrior? I've definitely had games where that would have seen me cleared by the AI; twice I've had two AI Civs declare surprise wars before my third build. Not to mention the barbarians which you might trigger with your Scouts.

Yup more often than not it works but barbs are usually on my borders when switching to slingers (its almost as if there an algorithm for them to locate & attack once you improve two tiles). The real risk is a neighbouring ai learning where my capitali is very early on or if horses are close by. Making it imperative to locate/kill the barb camp even sacrificing the warrior so long as it gets clear before they spawn the second wave. Also getting that ureka for archery from a gh is easier than trying to do it with the slinger.

 

[diamond geezer]

YAlso getting that ureka for archery from a gh is easier than trying to do it with the slinger.

Sure is, but it's not as certain. At least I never got it yet. You seem to have luck that is in a different league to what I experience.

It's not as though you don't get GHs with Slingers either - they move 2 squares instead of 3, or the same 1 if you're surrounded by hills/forests, which all too often seems to be the case for me.

 

[Noblebenj]

Sure is, but it's not as certain. At least I never got it yet. You seem to have luck that is in a different league to what I experience.

It's not as though you don't get GHs with Slingers either - they move 2 squares instead of 3, or the same 1 if you're surrounded by hills/forests, which all too often seems to be the case for me.

Yeah, it doesn't happen that often tbh but then neither does killing units with a slinger. It's important to maintain the three move advantage with xp.

 

[teks]

2-3 slingers have no issues killing things or finding things to kill. Though I do scout, slinger slinger, then either builder or slinger, depending on proximity of enemies. More often then not, the scout pays for itself in an extra hut, or city state bonus, but I'm not sacrificing the 3 slinger start for the scout.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

I've been experimenting with the Slinger > Builder > Slingers, with some success. The inspiration for Craftsmanship is quite strong, meaning more units in less time. I didn't have many issues with barbarians, as long as I keep the Warrior fairly close. I did have some issues with scounting, though. Maybe I'll try going Scout > Slinger > Builder > Slingers, and hope it''s enough.

EDIT:

Just tried to open with a Scout, but I think it wasn't worth it. It didn't net me any additional CS or goody huts than what I'd net opening with a Slinger, and took some 7 turns to build it.

It may not seem much, but those were the first 7 turns of the game. It really set me back, because it delayed my Archery eureka, which delayed my first war, during which another AI suprise DoW'd me with Heavy Chariots.

 

[sugerdady87]

I've been experimenting with the Slinger > Builder > Slingers, with some success. The inspiration for Craftsmanship is quite strong, meaning more units in less time. I didn't have many issues with barbarians, as long as I keep the Warrior fairly close. I did have some issues with scounting, though. Maybe I'll try going Scout > Slinger > Builder > Slingers, and hope it''s enough.

EDIT:

Just tried to open with a Scout, but I think it wasn't worth it. It didn't net me any additional CS or goody huts than what I'd net opening with a Slinger, and took some 7 turns to build it.

It may not seem much, but those were the first 7 turns of the game. It really set me back, because it delayed my Archery eureka, which delayed my first war, during which another AI suprise DoW'd me with Heavy Chariots.

Interesting I just tried a double scout opening with great success.

 

[A+ombomb]

It can be somewhat map dependent too. If you have alot of food resources that don't improve with a worker (banana, spices, etc), then you are better off rushing out a settler asap, and planting a city in a place that has more similar resources that are naturally powerful without improvement. This is significantly faster for building up than building a worker first.

As far as the rest, I'd favor scouts over slingers at the very beginning. Hitting the city states is a big deal, not to mention huts and just generally knowing where people are. If you hit a relic hut or an early cs for units you'll have a really fast early game. The culture/science cs's are also extremely good in the very early going, although it will take alot of planning to ensure you hit the boosts faster, when your science/culture rate is higher.

 

[c4c6]

if you're surrounded by hills/forests, which all too often seems to be the case for me.

Karma?

 

[Noblebenj]

I understand the slinger rush but for me they are too expensive without the '50% card' or military cs. Going double scouts, using the 'recon card' (which is the only time you will) significantly increases the odds of finding either unit or districts bonus cs. Just finding ONE of those gets me back 6 turns of the 10ish I put into the scouts (quick speed) and these are considered the worse cs! That said I hedge my bets, I'll go two scouts or none.

Guess it's just styles of play. Providing I can hold out an invasion, I've always focused on economics before conquering & double scouts support's this style.

 

[teks]

On deity, in the last three matches I've played, barbarians are at the gate by the time thebsecond scout would have come out. I'm not sure how you guys are doing that and living.

I already have a warrior scouting from turn 1, then a quck scout. After that, the returns on getting a third scout are low. Any City states would be visited already, which is the biggest gain to be had. If the scout can't score some benefit by exploring in short order, he ends up being wasted resources. Now a second slinger however. He is immediatly useful always, and he springs a vital eureka easily covering his cost.

 

[Noblebenj]

I only play quick speed, continents, standard size with either England or Spain... maybe that makes things easier?

 

[KmDubya]

I only play quick speed, continents, standard size with either England or Spain... maybe that makes things easier?

I think Quick speed helps you recover if attacked easier as you can make a defender very quickly if needed. I know on Epic speed that getting caught without a defender is bad as it takes a long time to build a unit.

 

[Victoria]

I am a scout luvver but woukd never build 2 on deity first.
If the layout was goid I woukd go scout slinger slinger. Other wise def slinger slinger scout.
I would also never send my barb scouting, he is so useful to take a spear camp out early and that can be worth 5 eurekas in value

 

[Forbiddentwo]

Is it ever worth it to go for drama before political philosophy (say, with Japan if you are planning to (ab)use the Meiji restoration bonuses)?

Is it ever worth it to not go straight from political philosophy to feudalism?