Let's talk about the big bang and uniformitarianism

[Birdjaguar]

Sorry to bring up post 83, but i've just started reading the thread and just had to stop at this point and say something.

The first story clearly states trees, plants, and birds are created before man. Even if we say that man could be created before the animals as they were both created on the same day, the second story clearly states in this order

-Man was created from dust
-garden of eden(plants) was formed followed by trees (all created before man in story one)
-man's put into Eden
-animals and birds (birds were created before man in story one) were created and man got to name them.

So the 2nd story contradicts the timeline of the first!

You may have missed it, but Zany has already dealt with this question: Your interpretation is wrong. You do not understand the bible. His is correct. What don't you understand about that?

 

[ironduck]

Not to forget: Zany knows Hebrew and has made his own translation of the original scripture, unfortunately he tends to forget what the words mean, which is why he hasn't published it yet.

 

[Warman17]

No need to troll me

 

[ironduck]

We're just being helpful in case you seriously expected to get a real answer from Zany to your questions

 

[Zany]

I've already proved this several times, but here is what it says in Hebrew (and also in my translation, you're translations must just be crummy): "And He had ALREADY created all the beasts of the field". It clearly says it already happened, so, it is reinforcing what the previous chronology said. That is why there are two accounts, one gives an overview to familiarize you with what's going on, and the second goes more in detail while make it clear in ways like that how the order goes. Now you, Warman17, you have not been observing the thread thoroughly so you are not wrong in asking that. Birdjaguar and ironduck, you saw me answer it

And vice versa. Why do you still argue with us if you're so secure in the knowledge that we're stupid, fact-ignoring, crazy fanatics?

It's entertaining (right back atcha), it allows to pose my point of view, and to bounce it back at you, why do you (all of you, not you you) start threads like this? But yeah, good point. So long!

Enjoy your fun, I'm gone for two days. Seriously, I'm actually going to be gone for two days. If this is still up by a third day (a sign from Jesus no doubt ), I'll be happy to continue the debate. But this thread has gone on long enough, I would be happy to start a Part II when I get back. Copy and paste what you said before, it will be seen and responded to then. Because in this situation when something new is brought up, it is either looked over because of continuing debating over older arguments or it kills off all older discussions. But a Part II would be clearer and more ordered, this one is just muddied to be honest.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I've already proved this several times, but here is what it says in Hebrew (and also in my translation, you're translations must just be crummy): "And He had ALREADY created all the beasts of the field". It clearly says it already happened, so, it is reinforcing what the previous chronology said. That is why there are two accounts, one gives an overview to familiarize you with what's going on, and the second goes more in detail while make it clear in ways like that how the order goes. Now you, Warman17, you have not been observing the thread thoroughly so you are not wrong in asking that. Birdjaguar and ironduck, you saw me answer it

My Revised Standard Version is a mistranslation? All of it or just this particular passage? Which version is correct?

 

[Perfection]

Nah, just dig up the old one. If it's only gonna be a couple days it'll be pretty easy to spot. And it's not like the new one will make it less muddy, rather the mud would just cover two steaming messes.

 

[Irish Caesar]

I was about to ask which translation was used, also.

I prefer the "New American Bible," but I'm no Bible scholar. It includes the books the Protestants threw out because they didn't like them!

 

[ironduck]

But a Part II would be clearer and more ordered, this one is just muddied to be honest.

I can't think of any post where you've tried to 'prove' creationism that hasn't been muddied and dishonest!

Oh, and I've read the genesis in several bible translations in two different languages, none of them said what you say your version claims to say. Please say which version it is so we can at least look it up, it may be online.

 

[Taliesin]

Young's Literal Translation:

2:4 These 'are' births of the heavens and of the earth in their being prepared, in the day of Jehovah God's making earth and heavens;

2:5 and no shrub of the field is yet in the earth, and no herb of the field yet sprouteth, for Jehovah God hath not rained upon the earth, and a man there is not to serve the ground,

2:6 and a mist goeth up from the earth, and hath watered the whole face of the ground.

2:7 And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

2:8 And Jehovah God planteth a garden in Eden, at the east, and He setteth there the man whom He hath formed;

2:9 and Jehovah God causeth to sprout from the ground every tree desirable for appearance, and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

2:10 And a river is going out from Eden to water the garden, and from thence it is parted, and hath become four chief 'rivers';

2:11 the name of the one 'is' Pison, it 'is' that which is surrounding the whole land of the Havilah where the gold 'is',

2:12 and the gold of that land 'is' good, there 'is' the bdolach and the shoham stone;

2:13 and the name of the second river 'is' Gibon, it 'is' that which is surrounding the whole land of Cush;

2:14 and the name of the third river 'is' Hiddekel, it 'is' that which is going east of Asshur; and the fourth river is Phrat.

2:15 And Jehovah God taketh the man, and causeth him to rest in the garden of Eden, to serve it, and to keep it.

2:16 And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;

2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

2:18 And Jehovah God saith, 'Not good for the man to be alone, I do make to him an helper -- as his counterpart.'

2:19 And Jehovah God formeth from the ground every beast of the field, and every fowl of the heavens, and bringeth in unto the man, to see what he doth call it; and whatever the man calleth a living creature, that 'is' its name.

2:20 And the man calleth names to all the cattle, and to fowl of the heavens, and to every beast of the field; and to man hath not been found an helper -- as his counterpart.

New English Translation

2:5 Now no shrub of the field had yet grown on the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. 2:6 Springs would well up from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. 2:7 The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

2:8 The Lord God planted an orchard in the east, in Eden; and there he placed the man he had formed. 2:9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow from the soil, every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food. (Now the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were in the middle of the orchard.)

2:10 Now a river flows from Eden to

water the orchard, and from there it divides into four headstreams. 2:11 The name of the first is Pishon; it runs through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 2:12 (The gold of that land is pure; pearls and lapis lazuli are also there). 2:13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it runs through the entire land of Cush. 2:14 The name of the third river is Tigris; it runs along the east side of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.

2:15 The Lord God took the man and placed him in the orchard in Eden to care for it and to maintain it. 2:16 Then the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat fruit from every tree of the orchard, 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die.”

2:18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a companion for him who corresponds to him.” 2:19 The Lord God formed out of the ground every living animal of the field and every bird of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them, and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 2:20 So the man named all the animals, the birds of the air, and the living creatures of the field, but for Adam no companion who corresponded to him was found.

More standard translations like the KJV, the RSV, and the NRSV are similarly clear. In the second story, man comes before plants and animals.

 

[Birdjaguar]

His church is probably a small fundamentalist sect that uses their own version of the bible that has been adapted to meet their particular beliefs. Like the JW they will claim they use the only real translation.

 

[Warman17]

The translation in the Jewish bible in my Tanakh (translated by the Jewish publication society - 1985 edition) and and the following passage of an online Tanakh (also translated by the JPS, but a 1917 edition)

I have bolded the parts of importance

1 And the heaven and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day G-d finished His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made.

3 And G-d blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it; because that in it He rested from all His work which G-d in creating had made.

4 These are the generations of the heaven and of the earth when they were created, in the day that HaShem G-d made earth and heaven.

5 No shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no herb of the field had yet sprung up; for HaShem G-d had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground;

6 but there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 Then HaShem G-d formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And HaShem G-d planted a garden eastward, in Eden; and there He put the man whom He had formed.

9 And out of the ground made HaShem G-d to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became four heads.

11 The name of the first is Pishon; that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12 and the gold of that land is good; there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon; the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Cush.

14 And the name of the third river is Tigris; that is it which goeth toward the east of Asshur And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

15 And HaShem G-d took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And HaShem G-d commanded the man, saying: 'Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat;

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'

18 And HaShem G-d said: 'It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a help meet for him.'

19 And out of the ground HaShem G-d formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them; and whatsoever the man would call every living creature, that was to be the name thereof.

20 And the man gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found a help meet for him.

21 And HaShem G-d caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the place with flesh instead thereof.

22 And the rib, which HaShem G-d had taken from the man, made He a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And the man said: 'This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.'

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh.

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

once again, it says man came before animal and plant.

 

[classical_hero]

The translation in the Jewish bible in my Tanakh (translated by the Jewish publication society - 1985 edition) and and the following passage of an online Tanakh (also translated by the JPS, but a 1917 edition)

I have bolded the parts of importance





once again, it says man came before animal and plant.

If you have a look at this passage, it appears that the second verses you bolded are somewhat a paraenthesis that separates the verse before and after it. The verse 18 states that man should not be alone so lets make a help meet for him. These verse seem to show the reason why God needed to do that and verse 21 states God did what he said. So it seems that there is a plausable solution to what you have said. No where in Genesis does it say that mn was created before plants.

 

[ironduck]

No where in Genesis does it say that mn was created before plants.

Of course, if you read everything out of order there won't be a timeline. But then again, aren't you one of those funnies who want to create a timeline for the bible which makes the earth 6000 years old?