Let's Talk About the Civs that WON'T Make It In Despite Popularity

[Tusked]

Diplomacy - I agree it is difficult to judge, but I would argue that America has more enemies in the global community than Canada does. So, Canada wins.

Probably, but again that's just a side-effect of being a global superpower. The USA also has a bunch of staunch allies, whereas what does Canada have? Does Canada ever have giant "declare that we are staunch allies of your country"-fests? 'cause last time I checked a big part of the job of the President of the US was going overseas and making loving overtures to people whose populations want to kill Americans. Sure, they don't want to kill Canada, but that's because they don't care. Nobody particularly wants to kill me, but that's not because I'm a diplomat, it's because I don't matter.

Economy - Yes the American dollar is worth more, but the gap is not that large. Also, Canada exports more resources than it imports, most of which goes to America. America, on the other hand imports more than it exports, and is therefore reliant on other nations to maintain it's economy. This means that Canada is more economically self sufficient and sustainable than America.

Self-sufficient and sustainable, yes. This is not the same as important. I'm not saying that Canada isn't a great place to live. It's just, if the Canadian economy went down in flames... what would happen? The US and some European powers would intervene. Everyone would be very sad about it happening to poor Canada. But globally, it would not matter that much. Wall Street is one of the biggest financial centers in the world. Canada doesn't have wall street.

Culture - This includes more than just movies and music. Besides, many American TV shows and movies are filmed in Toronto and Vancouver. Also, there are major video game developers in Montreal and Vancouver as well. However, culture also includes things like social policies. Canada is far more progressive in terms of education, racial equality, gay/lesbian rights, censorship, freedom of religion, environmental sustainability, and yes, public health care.

Again, being a great place to live is not synonymous with importance. Almost all the things you just said can be said of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland. And guess why the Scandinavians might be in Civ 5? Not because they've got the most wind power in the world in modern days, but because they had a great influence on history. Canada has had no influence on history, and that's what it comes down to. Music and movies are influential culture. The entire world is watching American movies and listening to American music. They're not being gay and thinking "the reason we can do this... Canada." Canada has no influence.

Also, seriously? I say Hollywood, Rock 'n' Roll, and McDonalds and you counter with 'American TV Shows filmed in Canada' and 'Several Video Game Developers'? Laaaame.

Technology - Yes, Americans have invented more technology as a whole, but the quality and type of research that is currently in development is quite similar when you compare USA and Canada. Both countries have similar access to computers, labs and facilities. The education system in Canada is ranked ahead of America, thus producing fewer, but more capable researchers.

Civ is a history game. Sure, they have similar access to technology, and I will not be defending the American education system now or ever, but what has Canada done? (argument in your favor: Just looked it up, and it turns out Alexander Graham Bell moved to Canada when he was 23! Yay, go Canada! Still not enough.)

In a uni-polar world view, America is a superpower and Canada is not. However, in a multi-polar point of view, which, with increased globalization, is a more realistic perspective, America is a great power. Canada would fall in the Upper-Middle power category - and that is mostly because of it's small military and lack of nuclear arsenal.

So? Again, not arguing that Canada isn't awesome. It's just not important. And it hasn't ever been. Thus, there are no grounds for its inclusion in Civilization 5. End of thread, end of argument.

 

[ko3ak]

This does not mean Canada is more economically self-sufficient. In this world of globalization, that you spoke of as well, Canada is dependent on foreign markets (primarily the US).

With globalization as it is today, net exporters and net importers rely on foreign markets, just in different ways.

Ah. Yes, but because Canada has fewer enemies, it has more opportunity to find buyers for it's resources. Whereas, America has fewer options. If other nations halted trade with the USA, it would have nowhere to turn.

 

[Tusked]

Ah. Yes, but because Canada has fewer enemies, it has more opportunity to find buyers for it's resources. Whereas, America has fewer options. If other nations halted trade with the USA, it would have nowhere to turn.

Yeah, but they're not going to. Even so, why does this matter? None of this is advancing an argument for Canadian importance. America sneezes, the world says "bless you." Canada sneezes, the world doesn't care.

 

[NA00]

Ah. Yes, but because Canada has fewer enemies, it has more opportunity to find buyers for it's resources. Whereas, America has fewer options. If other nations halted trade with the USA, it would have nowhere to turn.

Again, that is not true self-sufficiency if Canada is having to find more/new buyers for its resources. In fact, this would be a sign of reliance economies have on other economies because of globalization.

Aside from this, economics does not have a direct tie to popularity. A lot of countries do business with the US, without having particularly fond relations with the US. It comes down to money. Libya comes to my mind as a country that probably does not particularly 'like' the US - but in recent years trade with them has been expanding.

 

[ko3ak]

Wall Street is located in America, but it relies largely on foreign investors.

What you say is "important" is based on your own point of view. Perhaps Rock'N'Roll and Cowboys are important to Americans, but most of the world could do without them. Last I checked, China and India have their own versions of Hollywood. And the UK has more best selling musicians than America. So, yes, America invented Rock'N'Roll, but Britain does it better.

Something like gay rights, or public health care are important in a far more meaningful way. Canada is amongst several nations, including Norway, Sweden, France, Australia, and others, that are pushing the boundaries of social and political development. Those nations ARE important because they lead by example. They are setting the bench mark for other nations to aspire to.

 

[NA00]

Wall Street is located in America, but it relies largely on foreign investors.

What you say is "important" is based on your own point of view. Perhaps Rock'N'Roll and Cowboys are important to Americans, but most of the world could do without them. Last I checked, China and India have their own versions of Hollywood. And the UK has more best selling musicians than America. So, yes, America invented Rock'N'Roll, but Britain does it better.

Something like gay rights, or public health care are important in a far more meaningful way. Canada is amongst several nations, including Norway, Sweden, France, Australia, and others, that are pushing the boundaries of social and political development. Those nations ARE important because they lead by example. They are setting the bench mark for other nations to aspire to.

So I guess we could agree that culture is subjective, at best.

Cowboys and Rock and Roll may only be important for some, not others. But that would also go for the weight you place on "social and political development" when forming your analysis of the cultural importance of Canada and the Scandinavian nations. Some other parts of the world would not consider "gay marriage" or other "boundary pushing" ideas to be culture in the least. Just look at the lack of gay marriage in Many Latin American and middle-eastern nations.

Given this, I guess it would be safe to say that if rock and roll and cowboys are not important to everybody, gay-rights should probably not be considered so important either. It is culturally subjective. Which brings us back to an original point of this thread- which civs are important enough to be in civV?

 

[EMT]

There's a reason Canada's being discussed here rather than in the Civs you think will get in thread. Vouching for Canada's last 20 years as a successful country(while there are several others, such as Taiwan, Singapore, Norway, or Switzerland) doesn't make sense. In other words, let me put it like this. Assuming everything you say is right, then the latter half century of Canada as an actual presence rather than being Greater Great Britain, is half a century really even long enough while not PARTICULARALY standing out to the world at large as an entity different from America or Britain? Comparing America and Canada isn't right of fair....to Canadians. Americans have made greater strides in everything Canada has save education, health care, and homosexual rights. To not make this political, I'll agree with what the above poster said. Homosexual rights are a cultural thing where people view it as good or bad depending on their personal beliefs and the general culture of their country that influences their opinion. Just like Americans seem to hate the idea of Health Care or good education. Being second, third, or fourth doesn't make you qualify for Civ. Russia's in not only for their world impact on history, but also for being 1st in land by a huge amount, making them stand out. Canada may be second, but they're second, and not first, and that's a minor point in why Russia gets in and Canada doesn't.

 

[phungus420]

I'd rather see Poland finally make it in or other countries like Vietnam and Thailand. I also think the Malayo-Polynesians should finally be included in an expansion pack.

I'd love to see Vietnam included. They have a very rich history that extends thousands of years. The last 50 years though is what really makes Vietnam stand out, they have kicked the out of China and the US, and those two nations are 2 of the toughest kids on the block. That's worth alot in my book. I don't think any other nation on the planet could withstand back to back invasions by the US and China; granted they got some help from Russia in supplies during the US-Vietnam war, but they held off China all by themselves, and they border China. Tough little country, plus it's economy is expanding and the quality of life of it's citizens is improving at an unprecedented rate and has been for the past 20 years.

 

[Tusked]

Wall Street is located in America, but it relies largely on foreign investors.

What you say is "important" is based on your own point of view. Perhaps Rock'N'Roll and Cowboys are important to Americans, but most of the world could do without them. Last I checked, China and India have their own versions of Hollywood. And the UK has more best selling musicians than America. So, yes, America invented Rock'N'Roll, but Britain does it better.

Something like gay rights, or public health care are important in a far more meaningful way. Canada is amongst several nations, including Norway, Sweden, France, Australia, and others, that are pushing the boundaries of social and political development. Those nations ARE important because they lead by example. They are setting the bench mark for other nations to aspire to.

You're just being argumentative now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_music_artists - Topmost US artist: Elvis Presley at >500 million. Topmost Canadian: Celine Dion at 200. Number of times United States appears on the page: 68. Number of times United Kingdom appears on the page: 34. Number of times Canada appears on the page: 6.

http://boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm - US films on the list: all of them.

Your definition of culture appears to be "most liberal country". Honestly, you're just yanking out the one thing Canada is good at and elevating it above all the rest. And seriously, you're saying that the rest of the world "doesn't care" about the entirety of modern music? You're starting to annoy me majorly now. I say we invented electricity, you say gay marriage. I say we were one of the two most powerful nations on the globe for 50 years, you say public health care. I say the entirety of modern entertainment and you say "but some of it is filmed in Canada?" You're grasping at straws, your screen name is nonsensical, and I'm in a bad mood.

And you know what? I'm gonna go ultranationalistic on you and say this right now: the United States invented freedom. Yeah, I went there. Ancient greek democracy, yada yada yada, you know who brought freedom back to the people after over a thousand years of monarchy and despotism? That's right, the United States. So screw Canada. Just screw it. I agree with most of your views, but trying to wiggle your homeland into a position of importance based on vague principles and social liberalism is just a bunch of stupid.

 

[ko3ak]

All I'm doing is proposing that Canada (and similar nations) may not be as insignificant as they seem. You shouldn't underestimate other nations. Open your mind to the idea that they may have much to offer. Maybe you can learn something.

Oh yes, and I can see how America brought freedom to the world, even though they endorsed slavery for most of their history.

Also, my screen name is not nonsensical, it is written in the cyrillic alphabet.

 

[Mango Elephant]

All I'm doing is proposing that Canada (and similar nations) may not be as insignificant as they seem. You shouldn't underestimate other nations. Open your mind to the idea that they may have much to offer. Maybe you can learn something.

Oh yes, and I can see how America brought freedom to the world, even though they endorsed slavery for most of their history.

Also, my screen name is not nonsensical, it is written in the cyrillic alphabet.

All he's proposing is that Canada isn't Civ-worthy, which isn't a bad thing. Switzerland is a great country but I'd be damned if Switzerland made it in civ. Canada is like Switzerland, a nice place to live, but not deserving of a spot in Civilization history, despite the few technological and cultural advancements made by the Swiss. Many nations are like this, and it doesn't make them any less for it, so please stop exagerating Canada's achievements, which are about as significant as Switzerland's achievements.

EDIT: It should also be said that he never said that Canada doesn't have much to offer, don't put words in people's mouth.

 

[mechaerik]

I'd love to see Vietnam included. They have a very rich history that extends thousands of years. The last 50 years though is what really makes Vietnam stand out, they have kicked the out of China and the US, and those two nations are 2 of the toughest kids on the block. That's worth alot in my book. I don't think any other nation on the planet could withstand back to back invasions by the US and China; granted they got some help from Russia in supplies during the US-Vietnam war, but they held off China all by themselves, and they border China. Tough little country, plus it's economy is expanding and the quality of life of it's citizens is improving at an unprecedented rate and has been for the past 20 years.

Well, I don't know about a rich history, but Afghanistan managed to hold out against the Soviet Union (as well as its own government), and a bunch of other historical empires. Afghanistan is also one of those tough little countries.

 

[phungus420]

Yeah, but it's also a complete basket case region, and the area known as Afghanistan couldn't really be considered a unified nation, it's still fractured as hell. Yeah, the land itself has been hard to conquer, and has been since ancient times. But there isn't really any singular Afghani nation or peoples that has defended it. Vietnam on the other hand has always fought for its national identity and independence, I don't think what Afghanistan does really compares. I suppose a bit of it has to do with the fact I respect Vietnamese culture as well, but I can't say the same for Afghani society on a whole host of levels.

 

[EMT]

Well, the ancient state of Bactri was a power in the region for centuries. Not sure how much to value that because I haven't really read a lot about them.

 

[Wodan]

Diplomacy - I agree it is difficult to judge, but I would argue that America has more enemies in the global community than Canada does. So, Canada wins.

Another explanation might simply be that Canada lacks influence in the global community, thus nobody cares enough to make them an enemy.

Canada exports more resources than it imports

That's an inevitable result of having a low population density with a modern technological base. Raw materials per capita are huge.

Culture - This includes more than just movies and music. Besides, many American TV shows and movies are filmed in Toronto and Vancouver. Also, there are major video game developers in Montreal and Vancouver as well. However, culture also includes things like social policies. Canada is far more progressive in terms of education, racial equality, gay/lesbian rights, censorship, freedom of religion, environmental sustainability, and yes, public health care.

Again, your definition of "progressive" is not the same as "better".

Technology - Yes, Americans have invented more technology as a whole, but the quality and type of research that is currently in development is quite similar when you compare USA and Canada. Both countries have similar access to computers, labs and facilities. The education system in Canada is ranked ahead of America, thus producing fewer, but more capable researchers.

An education system for the masses do not limit the exceptional "1 percenters" in the populace, in the slightest.

In a uni-polar world view, America is a superpower and Canada is not. However, in a multi-polar point of view, which, with increased globalization, is a more realistic perspective, America is a great power. Canada would fall in the Upper-Middle power category - and that is mostly because of it's small military and lack of nuclear arsenal.

And, as such, why again should Canada be in the game? Let's go back to my list and talk about what point you think it would qualify under (feel free to add a new point #7 if you feel such is warranted).

 

[Wodan]

Ah. Yes, but because Canada has fewer enemies, it has more opportunity to find buyers for it's resources. Whereas, America has fewer options. If other nations halted trade with the USA, it would have nowhere to turn.

That would be abso-friggin-lutely wonderful. The vast majority of America's economic woes stem from manufacturing moving to China / textiles moving to Pakistan / tech moving to India / etc, where they don't have labor laws and thus can produce much more cheaply. If these nations halted trade (or at minimum the U.S. enacted extra duties equal to or greater than the labor costs for U.S. production), millions of jobs would return to the U.S.

 

[Wodan]

All he's proposing is that Canada isn't Civ-worthy, which isn't a bad thing. Switzerland is a great country but I'd be damned if Switzerland made it in civ. Canada is like Switzerland, a nice place to live, but not deserving of a spot in Civilization history, despite the few technological and cultural advancements made by the Swiss.

The Swiss played a pretty darn good game of Curling in the Olympics yesterday.

Good thing the Canadans didn't play the Swiss, though the women did beat them but lost to Sweden.

There! Another thing the Canadans are good at: Curling! They should be definitely in the game for being the world leader in the sport of Curling. (Which they didn't invent.)

 

[climat]

This stupid and futile Canada debate 're'began AGAIN?

 

[kudlaty]

No one mentioned Huns..?

they are just now playing against Celts. 0-0 HT

 

[Wodan]

This stupid and futile Canada debate 're'began AGAIN?

ko3ak got his knickers in a twist because he felt Canada was being dissed. When, for one, I don't think anybody (including me) intended to do so. And, I'm not sure even ko3ak seriously thinks Canada should be in the game (despite winning the Gold medal in Curling).