Let's Vox Populi! (#3)

I've played modded MP before but only live, but it seems unlikely this could be less stable. Live games needed a restart occasionally but were mostly fine.

I do think we need simultaneous turns, there is a difference between games taking years and taking decades. Players should be able to work something out during wars.
 
I've played modded MP before but only live, but it seems unlikely this could be less stable. Live games needed a restart occasionally but were mostly fine.

I do think we need simultaneous turns, there is a difference between games taking years and taking decades. Players should be able to work something out during wars.

Regarding workinng something out.
Me and buddy did simultaneous and during war we agreed whoever declared war gets to move all his units before the person being attacked.
 
Sorry not following.
What do you need my vote on?
For map i prefer oval to pangea.
For ocean i dont have a preference.
Rainfall, temp, age of planet im good with whatever..
Yeah, and you may find this odd, but in the ranked voting system that Im resolving the question with - Instant Runoff Voting , batch style - your vote among the candidates (post #67) amounts to #1 given to both Old Earth Pangaea and Normal Earth Pangaea, with the others tied for third. But a ballot in this system where you dont pick a preference for #1 would be an unfair, multiple ballot & the runoff procedure just eliminates that ballot without counting it to anything.
It's entirely valid for this to be your proposal, in which you really are equanimous to the alternatives, but you cant express a one-variable preference unless we were to let the ballot to have -both- counted as an increase of the chance of your top picks, but also continue without any compromise should either one be the most unpopular in a runoff. So it's like a multiple ballot. Alternately, if your two top votes were popular, your ballot doesn't carry the meaning of distinguishing them anyway.

--
afaik no one has done a multiplayer before *and talked about it on forum (I mean, the modpacks were made so people musta been using it in local friendgroups); except me when I tried doing this contest the.... i think second time. We put the 8 people together, but right at setup some players mishandled... they picked each other's civs instead of their own? and I dont even understand what that is? it doesnt make sense, but immediately interest died instead of just swapping around - also a 2 button process. Also I dont even understand how a person could mistakenly tell me the wrong civ they wanted in direct question, but they did.
They somehow mistook not their civ, but themselves as being another player

I have unresolved angst about this, clearly.

But anyway, GMR can run it. I 100% promise you. If there's a bug we find, it's in VP itself.
As for online, I finally got around to checking it and it looks like the most recent discussion of any modpack for VP multiplayer was by the Magnus Mutatio team and they have not delivered a version since last year. That means we can't play live multiplayer period. There's simply no way to make Civ 5 load a mod data in multiplayer without someone making a "modpack" which is more like a patch to the game install, but which embeds the mod's changes into it (so, you can't have a generic modpack that makes mods loadable in general, or no one ever did it, anyway).

Pitboss is still a possibility, but as I mentioned, I am unable to do the server because the Oracle corporation, which makes the product I would use to do the server clean, has some bizarre blindspot to my identity where they simply ignore all my contacts and my attempts to make an account for their services always fail. (and though the products are free, they need an account etc.) I can't physically put my main computer through being the server, I've been forced to go without routine maintenance during this year and I can just tell the fans are about to go.
I could send someone else on to a HowTo page for using this software to make the server.


Yes, surely if we do Pitboss, my inclination is to adopt some of the rules of etiquette that held Civ4 pitboss games together - involving assigning a player's turns to a certain time of day (universal time) as though we were sequential, and war rules, and so on. I have second hand knowledge of it but would research. If someone knows about it I'd love to see them nerd it out in the thread.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, and you may find this odd, but in the ranked voting system that Im resolving the question with - Instant Runoff Voting , batch style - your vote among the candidates (post #67) amounts to #1 given to both Old Earth Pangaea and Normal Earth Pangaea, with the others tied for third. But a ballot in this system where you dont pick a preference for #1 would be an unfair, multiple ballot & the runoff procedure just eliminates that ballot without counting it to anything.
It's entirely valid for this to be your proposal, in which you really are equanimous to the alternatives, but you cant express a one-variable preference unless we were to let the ballot to have -both- counted as an increase of the chance of your top picks, but also continue without any compromise should either one be the most unpopular in a runoff. So it's like a multiple ballot. Alternately, if your two top votes were popular, your ballot doesn't carry the meaning of distinguishing them anyway.

--
Still not following
 
1) Old planet Pangaea
2) Middle-aged planet Pangaea
3) Old planet Oval
4) Middle-aged planet Oval

Are these the choices you are referring to?
Where you asked us to pick 2?
If so then my votes would be 4 then 3
 
1) Old planet Pangaea
2) Middle-aged planet Pangaea
3) Old planet Oval
4) Middle-aged planet Oval

Are these the choices you are referring to?
Where you asked us to pick 2?
If so then my votes would be 4 then 3
Great.
Same story to Rongute. You gotta put one Pangaea before the other.
I'm updating the OP with an InkAxis substitution for Grassland Farm, then a sanity check because I dont trust myself to not do an oopsie (recounted votes like 8 times :yuck:) but that's eight people. The vote can be called when Rongute confirms.

I've put several things just by eyeballing the consensus and/or vibe such as cutting the AIs. Refer to the Blue part in the middle.

There is wildly opposite ideas for the difficulty setting though and I'm perplexed on that. Did someone say we need to put up the difficulty to prevent an exploit? I just want the City-States to be "normal" and the barbs to be consistent and fair as they can be as disruptors. Perhaps, at the same time as the Difficulty/World setting, we would pick whether to do a Strategic Balance resources or Normal resources. (we already locked in standard abundance), since City-State territories are relevant to resource acquisition. We'll do it when world is confirmed and then we'll have to talk about session scheduling commitments.
This is the part where someone would make a Discord channel? For faster (and more obscured) talk about scheduling stuff, but I dont have a server.... if I made one I really *really* dont permanently want to be the admin for a "VP games" server, its not my energy.
 
I'll look into pitboss again on the weekend.

There are several things to figure out.

The main one is potential instability, which could force us to switch to hotseat. That's not possible without editing the save. I found some tools which might make it possible. I tried one, not actually editing anything yet, but just checking if it even recognizes the save file. It worked for old versions of VP, but didn't work for the current one. I might be able to figure that out by checking what changed in VP's source code. I'm only superficially familiar with C++, so it could be quite a pain.
There's also another tool that I haven't tried yet.
If this fails, we could also just take the risk and play anyway.

Second concern is password protection. As far as I know, you can't put a password on your civ in pitboss.
It might be possible by editing the save. If people want to have a password on their civ, they'd have to share it with me (or whoever ends up doing all this crap), or set up the tools themselves.
The protection isn't absolute. Anyone with sufficient dedication could get around it.
But one perk is that it'll avoid stupid issues with people logging in to other people's civs by mistake.

Final concern is that it seems like you can't even start a pitboss game without all human players being present simultaneously. I don't know where you all are in the world. I'm sure we could arrange something, but it could be annoying.
I believe there are workarounds, but I'd have to look more into it.
If you start with some humans and some AIs (with the intent for humans to log in and claim their civ within a day, before end of turn), the AIs immediately take their turn, as opposed to after all humans or after the timer runs out. So it's not as simple as that.

Making a modpack shouldn't be an issue. I've done it dozens of times, though not recently.
The question is do you trust me any less than other random people that made packs in the past.

I can also look into editing the source code such that saves are made when people join the game, and when they end their turn. I don't think either of those things happen automatically.
This should be easier than figuring out the save game format. I already did something similar for myself - enabled post-turn autosaves, which the devs broke many years ago for unclear reasons.
Obvious perk is that in case of issues or disputes or crashes we waste less time. Don't have to reload all the way back to the start of turn.
The second perk is that I can set up a script on my computer that monitors the presense of saves, and reports that to a simple website.
Ideally you'd be able to go to the site and check if someone you're at war with has already made their turn.
I don't know how the in-game turn emails work, or if they work at all. If they don't, then my dream setup gives you an easy ability to check if a new turn has started.

I'll be travelling between Dec 25th and Jan 3rd. I imagine there's a good chance other folks will be busy too, travel or otherwise.
Several people also suggested postponing this until a new version is released.
So my suggestion is to start in the new year.
That should be plenty of time for me to figure all this crap out.
 
There is wildly opposite ideas for the difficulty setting though and I'm perplexed on that. Did someone say we need to put up the difficulty to prevent an exploit? I just want the City-States to be "normal" and the barbs to be consistent and fair as they can be as disruptors. Perhaps, at the same time as the Difficulty/World setting, we would pick whether to do a Strategic Balance resources or Normal resources. (we already locked in standard abundance), since City-State territories are relevant to resource acquisition. We'll do it when world is confirmed and then we'll have to talk about session scheduling commitments.
This is the part where someone would make a Discord channel? For faster (and more obscured) talk about scheduling stuff, but I dont have a server.... if I made one I really *really* dont permanently want to be the admin for a "VP games" server, its not my energy.

I think difficulty is just everyone giving their opinion, and because it doesn't matter much there is a big spread. People might just be defaulting at whatever difficulty they play on normally too?

I don't really see an exploit but prince vs deity certainly does change some things. On lower levels CS are much easier to conquer and much less of a threat to players as allies of their enemies.

Lower levels also make barbs far weaker, which is probably a good thing. I'd suggest emperor as a reasonable balance but I'm not too bothered what is picked.
 
I think difficulty is just everyone giving their opinion, and because it doesn't matter much there is a big spread. People might just be defaulting at whatever difficulty they play on normally too?

I don't really see an exploit but prince vs deity certainly does change some things. On lower levels CS are much easier to conquer and much less of a threat to players as allies of their enemies.

Lower levels also make barbs far weaker, which is probably a good thing. I'd suggest emperor as a reasonable balance but I'm not too bothered what is picked.

The harder the difficulty the more issues one has to worry about is my thinking process. And i like as many problems as possible. I dont like a smooth civ experience. I like dealing with one crisis after another. I like pain :).

I also want the city states to be harder to take and the barbs to be a thorn in our side.

Im curious. Why do you think weak barbs are preferred?

I usually play with them on raging and it forces me to built up an army when my default style is turtling.
 
The harder the difficulty the more issues one has to worry about is my thinking process. And i like as many problems as possible. I dont like a smooth civ experience. I like dealing with one crisis after another. I like pain :).

I also want the city states to be harder to take and the barbs to be a thorn in our side.

Im curious. Why do you think weak barbs are preferred?

I usually play with them on raging and it forces me to built up an army when my default style is turtling.

I think with playing a game with a long time scale you want to reduce randomness and barbs popping up at the worst time can cause a pretty big swing. Probably no one will lose a settler to them but the tougher they are the more likely it is. I don't want someone to end up in a situation where they are crippled early by mistakes.

There is also the fact that MP is different to single player so it is hard to tell what will change so I'd tend to be cautious. Barbs scaled based on average tech level (i think?) so even on deity they won't have stronger units as fast as normal but I'm not sure to what degree. But on the other hand deity AIs will clear barb camps really fast and scout a lot quicker. So they might be a lot more swarming than normal. In the same way I have no real idea how much tributing will be affected by having all humans in the game.
 
I can run the IRV today. It'll have its own post and I'll "show my work" on the result.

--
One thing about barbs is that they might go after one player's lands just because RNG, and be unable to be kept off tiles for a while because RNG, inconvenient hills, whatever. While other players just don't get attacked.
If barbs are raging and abundantly bold, then their bullying of us would be more uniform. Dying to a barb if doing a greedy settler move is possible for all nonzero barb rules; a barbarian menace that we -know- will be at least X strong will mean there is absolutely no greed play at all, so no one will get a random advantage by trying it and getting lucky.

This is just what makes me want to pick a stronger barbarian setting than weaker.

Amask that sounds really great, it's cool if you can use technology to give any perks to the gameplay. By the time of January, when I hope to actually press "start game", any one of those which we could have in hand would be great additions. If you could take into consideration this opinion for your volunteered work though, I think among the four, the hotseat switch fallback is the most valuable, and then the password protection. If we can switch it to hotseat, GMR would give password locks for free, it does this thing where it injects a password you define in your account, in between passing the turn through its server.
 
The votes:

L = Old, M = Middle ; P = Pangaea, O = Oval
[LP, MP] , [MO, LO] , [MP, LP] , [--], [LP, MO] , [MP, MO] , [MO , LO] , [LP, MP]

The rankings for each option's position as first preference:

LP = 3
MP = 2
LO = 0
MO = 2

The candidate with the fewest votes is LO, with none. It is eliminated. ... and then the tie yields a clear winner no matter how you work it.
If the MO is eliminated, it transfers nothing and LP wins. If the MP is eliminated, LP and MO pick up 1 vote, and so LP wins. If you eliminate both at the same time, LP wins.

It is simply the leading candidate.
Reflections: IRV was kind of stupid for an electorate of just eight people. Oh well. Thanks for humoring me.

We are playing on an Old Planet Pangaea.
 
We are playing on an Old Planet Pangaea.

So now that we have the map type and age out of the way, next is... waiting for the Difficulty votes to come in.

Difficulty Votes so Far:

2 Prince: Rongute, STEPHENHOFFMAN
2 Emperor: stii, DoodlesTheDragon
1 Immortal: DoodlesTheDragon
2 Diety: greenfieldpark, DoodlesTheDragon

3 remaining votes: HorseshoeHermit, Amask, InkAxis.

Also... if you could all vote on the following...

Strategic Balance resources or Normal resources:

1 Normal: DoodlesTheDragon
0 Strategic Balance:

For anyone unclear, Strategic Balance resources makes it
so every civ is likely to have at least some strategic resources
to build armies, navies, and air forces with. I'm not sure if this extends
to bonus and luxury resources.

Normal on the other hand, will potentially lead to some countries who
are resource starved and other countries which are resource rich.

While Strategic Balance is more fair, I find the idea of Normal more entertaining,
so I pick Normal.
 
I vote strategic resources

Pretty sure it doesn't apply to bonus/lux. Lux in particular is pretty consistently clustered around each player, at least most of the time.
 
I play normal resources in my games, but seeing as it's all human players, I vote strategic. I would hate to be (or see) a person hamstrung early due to a bad RNG
 
I'm totally indifferent to whether the difficulty is Emperor, Immortal, or Deity, so long as it's none of the ones that give the player a bonus.
Strategic Balance looks to have already won, so.

About documented changes, we do have the CBP wiki, but I am not 100% on how current it is. I don't see anything obviously wrong
https://civ-5-cbp.fandom.com/wiki/AI_and_Difficulty
Looking at this, it seems the choice should be Emperor or Immortal, looking at especially the Needs Modifier row. I do not believe that picking Deity would give City-State units bonus sight, but if they do I have a problem with that.
 
Top Bottom