Let's Vox Populi! (#3)

DoodlesTheDragon

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Joined
May 19, 2020
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Voting Update

Difficulty Votes so Far:


2 Prince: Rongute, STEPHENHOFFMAN
1 King: InkAxis
4 Emperor: stii, HorseshoeHermit*, DoodlesTheDragon
4 Immortal: Amask, HorseshoeHermit*, DoodlesTheDragon,
3 Diety: Amask, greenfieldpark, DoodlesTheDragon

Everyone has now voted. Thanks to the tie between Emperor and Immortal, I'm going to eliminate all others from the competition
and start a new vote.

Strategic Balance resources or Normal resources:

2 Normal: InkAxis, DoodlesTheDragon
6 Strategic Balance: greenfieldpark, stii, Amask, Stephen Hoffman, HorseshoeHermit*

Winner: Strategic Balance Resources

*HorseshoeHermit votes count as 2 votes each. For those unaware, I added this because I figured it a suitable reward for the persistence in not only going through the effort to set this all up, but to keep doing so after failing twice. Since there's 8 of us, this also makes HorseshoeHermit a tie breaker. If anyone objects, you are welcome to say so and offer an alternative tie breaking method.
 

DoodlesTheDragon

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Emperor Vs Immortal Difficulty Vote:

So, between Emperor and Immortal, which will you all vote for?*

Since Amask chose Immortal and Deity, I'm going to assume until
further notice Amask prefers Immortal over Emperor.

Since greenfieldpark did the opposite order, I'm gonna guess greenfieldpark also wants Immortal over Emperor.

Rongute, STEPHEN HOFFMAN, and InkAxis all made one choice, below Emperor, so I'll assume Emperor for them.

stii chose Emperor alone...

I choose Immortal.

So...

Assumed Votes So Far:

4 Emperor: Rongute, STEPHEN HOFFMAN, InkAxis, stii
3 Immortal: Amask, greenfieldpark, DoodlesTheDragon

That leaves HorseshoeHermit to settle it, one way or the other.

*I've made assumptions on what everyone wants, so if you want your vote changed just say so.
 
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Rongute

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I think given the length of the game strategic balance would be fairer. Although the decision has been made now anyway.
 

DoodlesTheDragon

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Emperor Vs. Immortal Difficulty Vote Result

Winner: Immortal


Now that that's out of the way... HorseshoeHermit mentioned setting up a Discord for this would be a good idea.

Not counting HorseshoeHermit(who has already declared no interest in this)... Is anyone here interested in being Discord host?



 

Amask

Oogala Boogala
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I'm currently hosting an unmodded game to test connectivity.
If someone is willing to try connecting, PM me within the next five hours and I'll give you my IP within 1h max of receiving your message.

I'm able to connect to my own game from a different computer through LAN, but not via my external IP.
I tried messing with a bunch of router settings, and nothing seems to be working.
I hope that the issue is something stupid related to my two computers already being on LAN and for some reason refusing to connect to each other over the internet because of that. (Sounds stupid, but I've seen stupider things in my time)
Barring that I have no idea what the issue could be. I read some stuff online where people say my router model is pure garbage, and port forwarding might just not work at all.
 

HorseshoeHermit

20% accurate as usual, Morty
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Real life chewing me up and spitting me out again. I was finally able to do something that my mentioned medical problem made me delay all year, but it's a heck of a time for me besides.
I first found Amask's post there at the end of their 5 hour period. That's an aw shucks I guess. We're about to come up on the winter holiday hiatus, so I'll see you all in January.

We actually gonna play! That's so cool! I know that 2-months-ago-me would be so happy about this. Thank you for chipping in with info, problem solving, and task shouldering, Doodles, Amask, stii with the tests. Heck even Recursive if he puts the Diplo Victory voting rule in (that the game should have shipped with) by January version.

Our selections will get into the OP.
 

stii

Emperor
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ok so what else do we need to agree on? A method for picking civs, any other map settings?
 

Amask

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No one yet brought up random events. I'm voting against.

Also voting against raging barbarians. Large map with only 8 players and no high level AIs = loooots of open space.
I feel like authority might be too good.

Also voting against discord. I'm happy with this site. Though perhaps our organizer should make a new thread in the MP forum, so this thread isn't permanently at the top of the VP forum.

I first found Amask's post there at the end of their 5 hour period. That's an aw shucks I guess.

greenfieldpark volunteered to try connecting and failed.
I haven't had time to look any more into it after the weekend.
There's a chance I'll be able to solve it, but it's far from guaranteed, and won't be this year.
I'll report the rest of my findings later.
 

HorseshoeHermit

20% accurate as usual, Morty
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No one yet brought up random events. I'm voting against.

Also voting against raging barbarians. Large map with only 8 players and no high level AIs = loooots of open space.
I feel like authority might be too good.
No one said it would be a large map. It's standard pangaea, oldest Earth setting. We'll fit in the map designed for 8 people.

I'm just disabling random events. They're narrative and I don't trust the balance for one second.

add:
I basically see only one option for the Civ selection. Either we do 1 ban each, then have a random number generator give us selections of mutually exclusive sets of civs from which we each choose; or we do a ban, but then pick with the possibility of collisions and no incentive not to be as obstinate as the redraft process allows (a highly vicious game of chicken will ensue, etc.)
We *definitely* should not do this part until just before we play, when the VP version is locked in.

(actually, we could try one round of a gamble if we can obtain a trusted referee for a process. We'd just DM them all our picks, and then they tell us either there was a conflict and to resort to RNG, or there was no conflict and so we can play with our first choices.)

The only ones to decide on now, then, are Ancient Ruins (pretty sure we're all okay with this?), Raging Barbs, Tech Trading, Tech Brokering (if Trading), and Research Agreements.
The game tells us that Tech Trading was meant to replace Research Agreements but we can have them both.

I don't feel strongly about these last four - though I repeat my argument for Raging Barbs, if it's believable. I will just say if I had to pick, I'd turn off RAs, turn on Tech Trading, and turn on Tech Brokering. If it's all the same to everyone else.
 
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stii

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I think there are lots of civ pick options. Like post ban we could do something like this,

Each player makes a numbered list of something like five civs in order. Anything picked once is assigned then all conflicts are just randomly assigned to a player, with the person moving down their list until an unpicked civ is found for them.

Ruins: yes but fine either way
Raging barbs: no
tech trading/brokering. I think with humans this tends to spiral out of control. You can work together too easily and double your research rate so no
Research agreement: yes but fine either way.
 

Amask

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Not sure where I got the idea that the map is going to be large, but even on a standard map without AIs I feel like raging barbs would be too good for authority and extremely annoying otherwise. Basically I see no reason not to go authority.

Voting yes for ancient ruins, just for a bit of spice in the early game. I don't think it's a huge balance issue.

As far as my pitboss adventures go, here's where we stand.
1. I ran into unexpected connectivity issues. Until this is resolved, everything else is moot. I already invested several hours into this and didn't get very far. There are a few things I can still try.
2. Passwords. It's possible that this will not be required for pitboss mode. I think your slot in the game is tied to your steam account. I'm not 100% sure about this, and can't test this further until the connectivity issues are solved.
3. Starting pitboss game without all humans present. Turns out this is in fact possible, it's just counterintuitive how it works. A human joins the game, picks civ, clicks ready, and LEAVES. But his slot remains his. When all slots are filled the host can start the game even if no other human is actually in the game right now.
4. Switching to GMR mid-game. I reached out to the GMR folks a few days ago, but haven't heard back yet. I figured I'd ask them what they know before investing a ton of my own time into it.

Once they reply, there's another very important thing to ask them.
They do some magical save editing to protect each player's civ with a password.
If they are using the same tool that I already tried, then we might have a problem. That particular tool didn't work for latest versions of VP.
Maybe they're using something they wrote themselves, in which case we might be fine, but should still test it.

Anyway, I'm flying out tomorrow, so happy holidays everyone. All these annoying issues will have to wait.
 

Rongute

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Happy Christmas everyone!

My votes are:
Ruins: Yes
Raging Barbs: No
Tech Trading: No
Tech Brokering: No
Research Agreements: Yes

I thought we had agreed GMR ages ago?
 
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Hi, I'm not part of this project but I wanted to respond to the GMR question because I'm also looking for a solution to using it with my friends, and I hope someone here might know more about it.

Two points to begin with:
- As far as I know, the creators of GMR no longer provide support for it, so will most likely not answer your email, @Amask (I've emailed them a month ago, no response).
- Since GMR operates using Hotseat game saves, and these are incompatible with "normal" multiplayer play, it is impossible to transition to GMR mid-game. Therefore, if you want to play with GMR, one player has to start the game in Hotseat mode and send the save on to the next player, etc.

That's how far I got; however, it's not working for my friends and me, and we're not sure why (after I create the game and send the save to a friend, he can't open it; the game crashes instantly).
I suspect the reason that it doesn't work for us is because we only use MP modpacks and don't have the same Singleplayer version installed. But I hope anyone here has experience with using GMR with VP, so I know whether it's worth it to keep trying to get it to work at all.
 

HorseshoeHermit

20% accurate as usual, Morty
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I'm getting some health things done for the first week of January so I'll get back only after Jan 7th.

Hi, I'm not part of this project but I wanted to respond to the GMR question because I'm also looking for a solution to using it with my friends, and I hope someone here might know more about it.

Two points to begin with:
- As far as I know, the creators of GMR no longer provide support for it, so will most likely not answer your email, @Amask (I've emailed them a month ago, no response).
- Since GMR operates using Hotseat game saves, and these are incompatible with "normal" multiplayer play, it is impossible to transition to GMR mid-game. Therefore, if you want to play with GMR, one player has to start the game in Hotseat mode and send the save on to the next player, etc.
You know, you're right. When Amask mentioned "GMR folks" I only assumed he meant the Discord of the GMR community, but indeed, the original webmaster or whoever, Brian was his name, has merely gifted us this Steam-client web service called GMR and retired to a deserved obscurity.
If you want to reach the community that's still alive, go to https://civ.fun/ .

Your second point discounts Amask claiming to already have technology that transforms a game save data into a hotseat game.

That's how far I got; however, it's not working for my friends and me, and we're not sure why (after I create the game and send the save to a friend, he can't open it; the game crashes instantly).
I suspect the reason that it doesn't work for us is because we only use MP modpacks and don't have the same Singleplayer version installed. But I hope anyone here has experience with using GMR with VP, so I know whether it's worth it to keep trying to get it to work at all.
You do need to have the same game installed to play together. You can avoid sharing all the same DLCs or other products which can be disabled, but you have to run the same game version for GMR or anything else to let you play; the data will be corrupt nonsense transformed by two different applications. But Vox Populi requires in fact all DLCs because it depends on them, so that's not an option for mp VP.
If you are using GMR to do some kind of Mod multiplayer, then, as I alluded to in my OP, there is a special instruction you have to follow to get GMR to work for that save. Make sure you're reading the instructions when playing a mod game carefully.

Merry Happy, everyone. Have a good Yule, a blessed New Year, and enjoy the warmth of family. :)
 

HorseshoeHermit

20% accurate as usual, Morty
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I have been informed that the medical issue I referred to - the one that's kept me bound to the chair in my room for want of not dealing with excruciating unbelievable painful ear popping , kept me from exercising, kept me from taking walks, kept me from eating outside my room, kept me from getting my hair cut, kept me from getting important things from the store, kept me from attending any other routine medical procedure because of the shouting and head jerking I end up doing every few seconds,

is being regarded as a "non-urgent" issue and triaged out to 3 to 6 to 12 PLUS months.

I am actually going to die like this.

I can't. The crazy thing is if I mentioned one further detail that bugs me, it would carry the discursive implication of other things you would assume but those things are importantly false. And so on with clarifying THOSE things until I end up writing somethign 800 words long.
But it involves someone at the doctor's office just straight up not doing the job at the desk they're supposed to do and that I needed them to do for me to get going on fixing the problem because there is not anything that can be done to go around them, and they're probably totally untouchable because who do I e-mail? The desk?
 

DoodlesTheDragon

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What a nightmarish way to start off the New Year.

I would describe what I just read as utterly infuriating, but that would be an extreme understatement. I do not think there are any words in the English language which can adequately describe just how boogalooed this situation sounds. Actually there might be one, but this is a family-friendly forum.

If Covid is what caused it to be triaged out, then hopefully it will be 3 months and no longer-I've read that Omicron is spreading so fast that it will also peter out faster https://www.salon.com/2021/12/23/so...ad-fast-and-out-marking-the-pandemics-finale/ but we'll have to wait and see. And it also depends on whether desk person decides to actually do their job at some point. Can't be good for business to keep patients waiting forever.

A suggestion I have is to request from the desk that you get a chance to speak with the doctor, so that you can then tell the doctor the desk person isn't doing their job, or to ask them... anything you need. I don't think that would work as you've probably already considered or tried that. If you were able to though, perhaps the doctor could use the knowledge to fire the desk person and get someone more efficient in. How many other patients are waiting far longer for treatments then they need to because of this person, I wonder? I can understand though if you don't want to take any risk of infuriating the only(?) people who can help you.

I don't know how much of a hassle it is to switch doctors, but in a desperate situation like this, maybe it's called for. Maybe you can check around to see if there are other medical institutions offering this treatment. You've probably done that too though already.

As for advice on how to pass by 3-6-12 months when you can hardly do anything... hmm... this... this would probably be the perfect time of your life to write a book if you ever had that ambition. Or to read a bunch. Or to learn a bunch of new skills. Or to catch up with old friends. Or to binge watch Youtube. Or to learn and study Lucid Dreaming (probably the only place you'll be able to run for a while, and it might make half of the year more interesting). Or to try winning on Marathon speed on Deity in Vox Populi. I think a position like yours is the only time I'd ever consider using Marathon speed.

Then again, I don't know how long you've had this issue, so you might be already sick of everything I just suggested. I can come up with a bunch more suggestions if you think that might help give you an idea.

How are you feeling on the game plan? Do you feel like it would be a good way to help pass the time if you can spend a bunch of it thinking through your next move, or do you think it's something best organized once you do get the treatment?

If it's the latter, I don't think I'll be one of those who loses interest in this game.
 
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