Leveraging Liberalism in an SE at Deity

[mercury529]

So you've managed to use the power of bulbing scientists to pull off Liberalism before the AIs. You have beelined to do so and have a roughly empty lower tech tree. Since you ran an SE, your tech rate is reasonable but will fall off in the late game.

How do you personally choose to leverage your Liberalism win:

1.) What victory conditions are usually on your radar at this point?
2.) What tech do you choose from Liberalism?
3.) What tech path (if any) do you use to approach that goal in the Renaissance Era and why?

For me personally:

1.) SE tends to push me toward a Domination, Conquest, or "Diplomatic" victory. Cultural victories are usually not viable for me because of the lack of developed cottages. Space Race victories are more difficult because of a lack of a cottaged infrastructure.

2.) I favor Nationalism. It gives a powerful civic, chance for a Golden Age, and opens up some valuable techs.

3.) Here is where I struggle a bit with decisions. I have not played enough with Cuirassairs to have a strong opinion on their value (especially at the Deity difficulty level). So I am uncertain on whether or not they are the ideal choice for militarily leveraging my newly acquired tech advantage.

Teching toward Rifling seems viable but seems to delay leveraging your advantage.

The other option is pursuing Steel. Going through Chemistry with extra GS's seems reasonable and Cannons compliment a drafted army well.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You can often backtrade the bottom line very aggressively right before winning lib and then take chemistry or steel for cannons. I will vouch for cuirassers ---> they do very well until the opponent gets rifling.

 

[Silu]

1) Any can be on the radar. You can convert to mass cottages easily at Emancipation and proceed later to rushbuy for example, or straight mass production with Communism.

2) The best possible while not losing the Lib to an AI. Nat is nice if you're the first to get it, kinda sucks otherwise IMO.

3) Usually Cav if there's a possibility to get an offensive before the victims get Rifling. Cannons otherwise if there's a possibility for a viable war. Otherwise towards Democracy/Communism or so.

 

[Iranon]

I disagree with several things in the opening post.

You don't need a focus on cottages for a cultural victory. Artists won't allow the blinding speed of tech to Liberalism -> kill science for culture, but especially with the Sistine Chapel they are very efficient and contribute to your overall economy. You also don't waste the output of your non-culture cities. For a lategame cultural victory that features corporations and entertainment wonders, I prefer specialists over cottages.

Specialist economies can remain competitive in tech; in fact I tech better in the late game with them. If I cottage heavily, I tend to run Universal Suffrage. While that allows me to switch focus from production to tech or back instantly, I lose some research potential because my incidental specialists won't be boosted by Representation.

*

1) All of them. Since I'm more confident improving my position than making concessions/taking risks to win faster, I usually shoot for Domination.

2a) trade for the bottom half and try to nab Steel; this should give you a military edge for some time which can be enough to put the game away.
2b) Scientists lightbulbs lead directly to Scientific Method; either Communism or Biology can revitalise your economy depending on your plans. While hoping to get either directly is very ambitious on Deity, this is a deep enough beeline to ensure you can always snag something expensive on the way.

3) Anything past Musketmen is good for a decisive war. Which one I pick depends on what the AIs do and my empire setup... while I generally like Rifles least, it's a strong option if drafting is my only hope to get a decent army quickly. Most of the time I prefer cannons; on Deity the AIs will have the numbers to make collateral damage worthwhile.

 

[DaveMcW]

SE is a Monarch term.

You will need to use better strategies than that to beat Deity.

 

[Nares]

You will need to use better strategies than that to beat Deity.

Oh, so a CE then.

I know, I know, the best option is some well-played combination of the two, with the operative word(s) being well-played, as anything well-played can succeed.

 

[Iranon]

@ DaveMcW: No you bloody well don't.

 

[mercury529]

I disagree with several things in the opening post.

You don't need a focus on cottages for a cultural victory. Artists won't allow the blinding speed of tech to Liberalism -> kill science for culture, but especially with the Sistine Chapel they are very efficient and contribute to your overall economy. You also don't waste the output of your non-culture cities. For a lategame cultural victory that features corporations and entertainment wonders, I prefer specialists over cottages.

Are you advocating switching your specialists in your 3 culture cities to Artists post-liberalism? Is that really viable in a reasonable time frame on Deity? I have never tried it out, but I figured that it would be extremely difficult to generate the necessary culture on Deity without using the slider with cottaging.

Specialist economies can remain competitive in tech; in fact I tech better in the late game with them. If I cottage heavily, I tend to run Universal Suffrage. While that allows me to switch focus from production to tech or back instantly, I lose some research potential because my incidental specialists won't be boosted by Representation.

You really find that you can tech more efficiently with Representation scientists than Free Speech towns in the late game? Towns provide 6 research for no food deficit and scientists provide 6 research for 2 food deficit. And of course, Representation and Free Speech are not mutually exclusive.

SE is a Monarch term.

You will need to use better strategies than that to beat Deity.

I guess it depends what you mean by SE. Personally, I see it as an early game approach that emphasizes food over commerce. Emphasizing food enables production through the whip and research through specialists and GP (particularly GS). By no means does it mean you should avoid cottages entirely, merely that the majority of your empire should attempt to leverage the civics and tactics you choose. Do you really consider that to be an unsound strategy above Monarch?

 

[DaveMcW]

I guess it depends what you mean by SE. Personally, I see it as an early game approach that emphasizes food over commerce. Emphasizing food enables production through the whip and research through specialists and GP (particularly GS). By no means does it mean you should avoid cottages entirely, merely that the majority of your empire should attempt to leverage the civics and tactics you choose.

Then call it a EGATEFOCEFEPTTWARTSAGP(PGS) BNMDIMYSACEMTTMOYESATLTCATYC economy.

The main way to leverage Liberalism on Deity level is to trade yourself back to tech parity. You certainly won't be able to maintain a tech advantage for long.

 

[Rittmeyer]

SE is a Monarch term.

You will need to use better strategies than that to beat Deity.

.

Kind of post that is easy to make, but says nothing and helps nothing. What is this better strategy? Have you already contributed with it in someways in any threads? If you have, why don't you point it to this thread's creator, instead of making this empty argument negating the SE/CE concept?

 

[DaveMcW]

I will make whatever arguments I want negating the empty SE/CE concept.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Then call it a EGATEFOCEFEPTTWARTSAGP(PGS) BNMDIMYSACEMTTMOYESATLTCATYC economy.

The main way to leverage Liberalism on Deity level is to trade yourself back to tech parity. You certainly won't be able to maintain a tech advantage for long.

Hehehehe...you said "warts".

Kind of post that is easy to make, but says nothing and helps nothing. What is this better strategy? Have you already contributed with it in

Not only is it easy to make, it is accurate. When people say "SE", possibly they know what they're talking about. When someone else says "SE", you don't know what they're talking about.

I run the azz up economy! Whatever that means to you is what SE means to you. Better azz up.

Build whatever improvements you need to win. Early on it's usually a mix but not always. Later on you can finally set up a full range of civics to go down one of several paths...but that is not generally where deity or any other game is won or lost.

I don't have a problem with shorthand terms generally, things like mids, AP, and axe rush are fairly descriptive and they tend to mean the same thing. SE means that somebody is attempting to use specialists, and that may or may not be the majority of research. Or GNP, since gold has to come from somewhere.

Come on man, why not tell us how to win deity after running the azz up economy? Why not post something useful?! .

Better azz up .

 

[mercury529]

Not only is it easy to make, it is accurate. When people say "SE", possibly they know what they're talking about. When someone else says "SE", you don't know what they're talking about.

<Shrug> Describing in greater detail on the subject line isn't exactly possible. Beyond that, in my original post I described a fairly common strategy involving using GSs to bulb your way to Liberalism. The bulbing path to Liberalism often results in minimal cottage infrastructure (depending on how many cities you were able to spread to, whether or not you were Philosophical, etc). That can significantly affect late game research potential. That is the situation I described in my OP. I didn't think I was vague enough in my description to get into the SE specificity debate.

 

[Ragrrr]

How to beat deity:

1. scout
2. think about how what you see can let you win the game
3. win?

helpful pointers:if you get stuck on 2., don't skip it and move straight on to 3., it will rarely work. instead: clear your head, try a different angle, all you need is an edge (an angles are quite often edgy). once you have your edge, use it.

 

[Shurdus]

Then call it a EGATEFOCEFEPTTWARTSAGP(PGS) BNMDIMYSACEMTTMOYESATLTCATYC economy.

this comment made me laugh so hard my coffee ran through my nose. It hurts a lot, actually. Thanks Dave!

 

[Silu]

Then call it a EGATEFOCEFEPTTWARTSAGP(PGS) BNMDIMYSACEMTTMOYESATLTCATYC economy.

For reference, here's what Snaaty advocates for the higher levels in his guide:

the B-AGFHDFSSAM(.THBSSAAAHLFHLMOTAVGSITTTMESHBPOID…TIWWAGTDH(WOB…AVAMD…S1CYCEITPAFAPL(WD…S2EG(T1BBAWFRTTYNTITLAYC(WYSRTGA(ATBW(GOHOBUITRFOFAPWHYFWITLAYCCYDNTEITGYCWOSAASAWPITBDOLYHTBADDFAYFWIC(WAWOASDOWYSWODIWAYTB4AAGTCTHCWDSTBASWATGSWWSWWS(WSCBTTK3FFLSYCATYNBAMLAPFYSEWWDSRPAWTGYEGOOTCYHF(2-SFOPAIGATASR(OHTGSBDOTSCSGHITBTBATHITPBABISC(CSTCLTLSGCTBYEOIYCGOOTEHRWTCEBITCBALATIEABIDAGATHCABAM(NCFIYNCTB(BYWNTTKYPRHEFNBATHYPCP4COATSBEFNGB(DWTGTCTHCLYCRTSAWTLIDTHIRAGTFG…S3ETM(T5ADAAREAYNSTSOOAOYNHPA“EADRADRYMTKTAL“YRPAWIA(UBIFIGTANRIAYTTIFAYNODOR2TIAAYCTFIOOOYNHITYCCWYWLMIWEL(YHKSFAYCYCNCTGLWAROLIAUYCSLFSMANYCDSB(MPEC(WBFBSCTIFMACACTWLBOCIRBOATODEIHC(STB…WYCIDWTLAGTHCAWTSYUCSIOMWASHYPCHPWASTBAYLASYCEYONTPCTRSGFC(BRTBEFFECSTCGQITCYUAATSA8CIBTTTCASS(WSBYCEWOBUTVLITGSAYCADWAAHBA1AAAO8U(ASIUETHAPRTPFGBWYPYPRATTLHHYCSHGTFGBAAIYCWHAHSWSTCAYCBTGITCFBTNAHIR2SATTATGATNAFTNGYUTBP(TPAATSRTNFPTNFETNFL(TFMOYCBLIAGSAITBSMTOPFBL(NCMC&CNTFCTTOHYRLTYAGTGLFIPYSHNSAYLAHSL8CADSOYHWTLRYCSRPSTTSTRYARTAYCASBC2M(DOYMSPNAFFLABTTMIYBPCOTTMIFAYGASSTCSAPAATTGAGIYCOAOFRCVRAZOMIYFTFTSBTGYGFAGAAR…S4M(T1APAVYWTCAPAEPOIPAF(IATWWLT8CAETWHTGAPFBTR(FMGEMEBHWRAITBOYHEVWYWOHQECITAPHBBOYCCHMVYNTHABMSTROTAP(TAYCAWYSTCCSWTTHTROTAOBSMWYTGTBM(TYEEPATYMBCTSBREFBYGAYSBATRRA1ARTN(IDAGAFYTM(GYHGEBITKHUYRNHBBC=BRB8SA6TWTTRBYMNTIYWBAFAMATAACIAYCTBDWWIAFRCBTGT…S5L(RNIGREUYC2MTRDSMADOYVYCD2RIECWATHBYHBAYCDFIYGCWRYCSA2YWEUPSW3-4R…YSIFFTF5TITCYWTCFTBD(4SPCTCWLAFAUTTIRTTDTCDFTTOYAYCNATTSRT1FSTTGESPIESGWAYLASIOC(HTMBWU4SPCBYNNYSHYTTIECDTCAC(BBCDBTTWTLIBWSL1–2TYSHDYN(IYVHOCHCAYCTTYNVOSTTHTSATPYSHECAPTEWTGWMOLATSIWSTGH…IWAADGTTGASAIFTTSYCSTIPBITIPEIYSTTBTARDHHFT
economy. Is superior to both SE and CE IMO.

 

[Lansky]

Main issue is that you can bulb your way to Lib with one city, espcially with a Philo leader and/or running Pascifism. Occasionally you can do this in your capital, while still running a Bur cottage city, with some lucky food and caste system.

What the rest of your cities are doing is up to you.

Setting up to whip/draft an army?
Putting down cottages for a late game tech push?
Azz'ing up?

All are options!



In regards to the tech I choose, well it is entirely dependent on what I can take - DUH! I tend to try to not pick Nationalism unless I have a way to quicken the Taj, or plan on drafting an army. If I don't plan on doing either then I only take Nationalism if I don't have a better option due to it being a tight race.

 

[Iranon]

Are you advocating switching your specialists in your 3 culture cities to Artists post-liberalism? Is that really viable in a reasonable time frame on Deity? I have never tried it out, but I figured that it would be extremely difficult to generate the necessary culture on Deity without using the slider with cottaging.

I think we're talking about something different. There's a huge difference between a modern-age cultural victory fueled by corporations/culture wonders (artists are great here) and one that ceases caring about tech in the Renaissance (artists have at best a supporting role here).
The former is still faster than space much of the time, but similar things apply... you may well have to actively prevent someone else from winning.
With the Sistine Chapel, artists provide 64 - respectable culture and only 1/3 less science than Scientists, so running them in your science cities isn't that wasteful.

You really find that you can tech more efficiently with Representation scientists than Free Speech towns in the late game? Towns provide 6 research for no food deficit and scientists provide 6 research for 2 food deficit. And of course, Representation and Free Speech are not mutually exclusive.

This is somethng I really can't answer in a concise fashion. Improvement and civic choice for a lategame SE are more complex than for an all-out cottage spam. Windmills are very strong improvements especially if we run either State Property or Environmentalism (in the former: 1 workshop + 2 windmills has the same production as 1 farm + 2 mines, with free commerce thrown in). If we don't run State Property, lumbermills are a reasonable substitute for workshops (with the advantage that we can still use Kremlin-assisted whipping), and we likely won't have to chop down all our forests in the midgame because we can't work all tiles before Replaceable Parts anyway.
We can make good use of Free Speech but we don't have to unless going for a cultural victory; Nationhood and Bureaucracy have their uses as well and growing cottages might not be worthwhile.

Also, keep in mind that scientists and merchants are the least efficient specialists in the late game. Engineers, Angkor Wat priests, artists, spies... these can compete with 7-commerce-towns pretty much forever, and since windmills are so good I often want production improvements on my flatland.

 

[vicawoo]

Rusten:
More like devolved, the forum is more pro-cottage and narrowminded than ever.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=268007

Aelf:
I agree that whether it's an SE or a CE should be decided by how much of the research is done by either specialists (including lightbulbing) or cottages.
The question is when the cottages gradually take over most of the work (as usually happens, since conquered territories would feature cottages), do you still consider it as having played with an SE?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4911330#post4911330

Unconquered sun and acidsatyr going on about FE's

The popularized hybrid is ideal for the popularized guide to beat deity, but SE's lost their voice due to people quitting more than conversion.

 

[Artichoker]

Main issue is that you can bulb your way to Lib with one city, espcially with a Philo leader and/or running Pascifism. Occasionally you can do this in your capital, while still running a Bur cottage city, with some lucky food and caste system.

What the rest of your cities are doing is up to you.

True, but the GSs remain useful even beyond Liberalism. For example, the double GS bulb can be used on Chemistry as well as Education.

In fact, you can often get more mileage from Philosophical and Pacifism by using multiple cities, instead of only one, to generate great people.