Liberation then War: Someone please explain

[lukasbradley]

Difficulty level is immortal.

Germany has Seoul as a puppet.
Germany declares war on me.
I liberate Seoul. Status bar is full and blue. However, I'm only "Friends." In the message bar, I get the message of China being allies with Seoul.
I gift 250 gold to Seoul in same turn. Status bar still full, I'm only still friends.
Next turn.
China declares war on me, Seoul declares war on me.

WTH?

 

[Brichals]

Surprising indeed but there is an explanation.

Liberating must give X amounts of favour points, say 200. But China still had more than this "banked". They probably pumped a load of money into Seoul or did a request for them, so they had for example 300 favour points. When Germany puppeted them it remembered the prior state with China with normal decay lets presume, so that when you liberated them, China still has the most influence. That's one explanation but then I guess you already considered that, it's still WTH indeed. I guess it's better for balance though that a CS remembers it old friends if it is temorarily occupied.

 

[snarzberry]

I've had something similar, without the DoW. I liberated a CS and was merely 'Friends' on the turn of liberation. I wanted them as Allies so I was thinking 'Do I need to gain more influence?' which seemed wrong. So I thought that perhaps the last ally of the city state before being conquered is still the default ally and that when the turn ends the alliance will switch to me. So I ended turn and that's what happened. If that is how it works it's stupid as the player is vulnerable to exactly what happened to you, liberating a CS and then being at war with them due to an unlucky DoW.

 

[lukasbradley]

Thanks for the replies.

I know we can't expect the game designers to consider all possibilities in the game. But I feel as if this one is a little strange.

Edit: It literally ruined the game. I was on a great run for cultural victory. I liberated Seoul because they were a culture reward city. When they shifted, they got an immediate attack on the already weakened units. I didn't want to re-attack with China moving in, so I can to suffer the continued barrage on the retreat. By the time I got home, it was over.

 

[Putmalk]

This is why liberating is a useless mechanic. I still wonder why they included it if they weren't going to get it right. There could be improvements to it across the board, like:

- Liberated Civilizations are forced to be Friendly towards their liberator for 30 turns, with a huge positive modifier "You have liberated us!" The liberator and the liberated are forced into a 30-turn peace treaty.
- All influence with liberated city states is immediately removed upon liberation, and the liberator receives 250 influence. No matter what happens, the city state cannot be bribed into war against its liberator for 30 turns.
- The Liberated civilization adopts 50% of the liberator's science for 30 turns. This is to help them catch up.
- After 30 turns, the Liberator and the Liberator return to normal diplomacy, with the big "You have liberated us!" modifier turned into a much smaller "You have liberated us." modifier.
- For every city liberated by a civilization, you receive +3 Happiness, in addition to a stacking positive modifier with the liberated civilization. This modifier would be "You have liberated our cities!"

How do you guys feel about this? This would probably promote less expansion wars and more liberation wars (like World War II on the Allies' side)

 

[Brichals]

Good ideas Putmalk. What bothers me with this, if it happens is the following. Now that Seoul declared on OP they instantly go to like -60 influence. He's just lost all the money put in and the army cost of liberation and that CS is never going to become allied again with -60 modifier. It can = quit game so easily.

Liberation of Civs also has problems as seen here many times. On the bright side it could be easily patched I guess and makes the game much better. Just they didn't get round to it yet, I think it would be great if they did.

 

[doctorfork]

One of the other complicating factors I've seen is that if you're at war with a CS and you do something they previously asked, (build x wonder, get x resource, find a new natural wonder) the bonus gets applied when they're friendly with you again. I'm pretty sure this takes effect after liberation as well.

Suffice to say, when liberation occurs, any number of influences could have occurred that makes them friends with someone besides you.

 

[Putmalk]

I'm actually going to post my ideas in a separate thread, hopefully get some more replies on it.

 

[Louis XXIV]

They'll still vote for you in the UN, fwiw. I think liberation deserves more points even if they cap it (i.e., you only get the bonus once even if they're conquered and re-liberated).

 

[RD-BH]

@Putmalk

As peace treaties are only 10 turns,
... it might be preferred to 30 turns for forced peace.
... perhaps a 10 turn exclusivity before the CS "remembers" old friends.

 

[binhthuy71]

This is why liberating is a useless mechanic. I still wonder why they included it if they weren't going to get it right.

To my mind, they have it part right. Your list of suggested improvements is a good one. To it I would add that gifting units to CSs that request them should also buy you some influence with them. It seems odd that you gain influence for answering trivial requests whose fulfillment is usually inevitable ("Connect Iron," "Produce a Great Artist," etc.) but you gain none when you send them units to fight off another Civ. Yes, you do get the benefit of having the unit-gifted CS engage in a proxy war with the attacking Civ but, a CS seems to only act within a limited radius no matter how many units you provide.

 

[King_Course]

I had a game where I liberated Arabia from a Russia who had conquered the continent. Before my armies had moved past his capital towards Moscow, the Arab had wardecced me. He was eradicated from the game a second time.

 

[The Tollan]

I think Putmalk's ideas are on the right track.

Ensuring that there is a very useful and long lasting relations boost between the liberator and its friend is critical to improving the liberation system (pertaining to civilizations). Even if the bonus declines at some point it would hopefully be sufficient to provide significant benefits to the liberator.

Putmalk's idea of happiness and science benefits is also particularly important (only speaking of civilizations here). Cultural and economic benefits could be considered as well.

 

[Putmalk]

Thanks guys. I posted the thread in the Suggestions forums. Link here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=430510

It's a lot more detailed than what I posted. Hopefully if we keep up civil discussion and suggestions, they can change the liberation mechanic for the better!