Liberty is very hard...

as justice said, the happyness in the liberty tree is not good enough to be good for "empires who wish to expand quickly"

not to mention the fast settler policy (which is not doubling settler build speed btw, only making them 50% faster) is so far down the tree, you will definetly not expand fast...

the 50% faster settler build needs to be moved to the opener, and the free settler policy should also give a free, passive happy face bonus to every city, such as 0.5 happy for every city... just like traditions monarchy gives a completely passive happy bonus, liberty needs one much more, and its not even as passive ( you still have to settle cities to gain from it)
 
Oops yeah 50% faster lol. Well still, if you only want 3 expos, the net savings is pretty close. 3 settlers in the time it normally takes to build 1.33.. I think that's close enough. Point is it's awesome. Y'all can keep thinkin' it sucks, meanwhile the HoF is full of record times that were achieved using liberty. ;)
 
not to mention traditions landed elite gives extra food, which can be translated into 2 extra hammers in most situations, which early game can be the same as the 50% faster build speed. also, you can get to it faster...

also the fact that your capitol is now a bigger size, allowing those settlers to come out faster anyway; if the first settler wasn't "free", no one in their right mind would use liberty.

And Cro, liberty DOES suck going peaceful; if you warmonger however it's a different story as you want more troop production.
 
Oops yeah 50% faster lol. Well still, if you only want 3 expos, the net savings is pretty close. 3 settlers in the time it normally takes to build 1.33.. I think that's close enough. Point is it's awesome. Y'all can keep thinkin' it sucks, meanwhile the HoF is full of record times that were achieved using liberty. ;)

Well yeah, it's hard to relate the Domination VC to actual empire performance. You're winning out of a combination of tons of space on your side versus AI's who are being hurt directly by what you're doing.

So, the reason for Liberty isn't because it's good at surviving and keeping pace. The reason for Liberty in win-or-go-home Domination games is because after conquering a high city count at great sacrifice to your capital pop, that low population in a high number of cities is right in Meritocracy's sweet spot. So it ends up being good for keeping rebellions from happening and getting a lower turn time in a game you've already won.

Tradition, on the other hand, is good for surviving on Deity and higher difficulties in any number of bad situations that the AI can foist on you. The old "what amounts to skill?" debate. Getting a lower turn time for Domination? Or being able to win any game from any start as any civ? HoF suggests one playstyle, but on the other hand, there are three times as many Let's Play videos out there, all under the idea of being able to win any given game. Most of them go Tradition.
 
That's just the current preference. If you've played ten times as man tradition games as liberty and have a set start, you just get complacent. Liberty works perfectly fine peaceful or just one early war. See my last 5 posts for reasoning. The rest anyone can offer is anecdotes. For what its worth, my liberty games take 3x as long man-hours as tradition. So, maybe that counts are harder? There's more to do. It probably makes for a more tedious LP. But, the payoff is worth it.

We're just repeating things at this point. Even if Liberty is not strictly better in most cases than tradition for peaceful wide (and I would argue it usually is), it's not that far behind. The culture bonus is 2 SPs by end of game, which means you get EACH policy X turns faster. People just can't see its power.

Wide tradition is comparatively lackluster. The thing with happiness is that once you have enough that's all you need. You don't get more for having more in the midgame. The difference is gold and food vs culture and hammers.

Like I said, I don't think wide is liberty slam dunk, but in most cases, going wide, you'd rather have hammers than growth, and you need culture because its an exponential curve, while you already have plenty of gold by midgame anyway.
 
Well yeah, it's hard to relate the Domination VC to actual empire performance. You're winning out of a combination of tons of space on your side versus AI's who are being hurt directly by what you're doing.

So, the reason for Liberty isn't because it's good at surviving and keeping pace. The reason for Liberty in win-or-go-home Domination games is because after conquering a high city count at great sacrifice to your capital pop, that low population in a high number of cities is right in Meritocracy's sweet spot. So it ends up being good for keeping rebellions from happening and getting a lower turn time in a game you've already won.

Tradition, on the other hand, is good for surviving on Deity and higher difficulties in any number of bad situations that the AI can foist on you. The old "what amounts to skill?" debate. Getting a lower turn time for Domination? Or being able to win any game from any start as any civ? HoF suggests one playstyle, but on the other hand, there are three times as many Let's Play videos out there, all under the idea of being able to win any given game. Most of them go Tradition.

Most people play Tradition because it's easier to manage, easier to learn, easier to wrap your head around how to use it right. Liberty shines when you play aggressively. I don't mean warmongering. I mean pushing the pace. I mean 4 cities with enough CBs to defend yourself on Deity or in multiplayer, early, with a fast NC and a free great person that will boost me in the early game ahead of my opposition, no matter how I choose to use it. Is it as good at record SV finish times? No, clearly not. But the only weakness Liberty has is the science penalty. Otherwise you could easily keep pace in tech for SV. But it has so many other strengths. Tradition isn't inferior, that's not what I'm saying. Liberty is *safer*. People wear Tradition like a security blanket, when in fact Liberty leads to more survivable starts.

The idea that you can win more reliably with Tradition is a joke, unless you're a relative beginner at Civ. Tradition does require less planning, less optimal play to use effectively, I'll give you that. But, conversely, if you ARE good, Liberty specifically shines at surviving the bumps in the road of the early game. And the way Deity works right now, that's the only hard part of the game. I see so many people saying they got overrun by Shaka. Never, ever, ever happens to me when I play Liberty. I have cities out and defenders up and I smack that fool around if he comes my way. Yes, my science victory won't be *as optimal*, but I also didn't lose on t60. Grats on the re-roll. :P

Whatever, it's a time-honored debate. I exclusively played Tradition (and won on Deity with it) until I got bored of it. I know how to use Tradition. Now I also know how to use Liberty. What I sense from most of the pro-Tradition posts is people who tried Liberty, struggled with it (like I did) and went back to Tradition, deciding it was better, instead of figuring it out. (like I did)

Bottom line: If you threw me in a map with no idea what map type it was, who my opponents were, what my own civ was, whether raging barbs was turned on, etc. etc. and told me to choose, I would *always* choose Liberty in that situation, because it IS better at surviving ANY start, map, opponents or difficulty. If you know how to use it. Just my two cents, and I still regularly play Tradition, FYI. It's not like I'm in one camp. I just recognize that they're both equally valid. Yes, going wide is nerfed, but Liberty is still very strong. It's not all about Domination. Liberty is better at self-defense in the early game.

In fact, it's better, period, at getting an army up, whether your goal is offense or defense. While you're building settlers, I'm killing barbarians, because I have more production and the settler discount frees me up to build about 4 archers instead. That's how you survive a tough start. Can you do it with Tradition? Sure. You can get both an army AND cities up fast with Honor and Piety too. It's just easier with Liberty. :)
 
True, when your start is hammer poor when doing tradition, you are screwed. Good luck with those jungle starts.

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What I like doing is going with a tradition opener first and then decide whether to go some form of lib-trad hybrid (either just go full lib next or go lib to collective rule and then to tradition) or to finish tradition. If going liberty like that it doesn't slow the first couple policies too badly and I find that the faster border expansion in expos is really useful.
 
Yeah, I frequently take 1 pt in tradition before honor or liberty. But usually only if my capital has lots of third tier resources and I get a culture ruin. Otherwise I don't want to delay my important policies.
 
I played a couple of Liberty starts on immortal and I found that it consistently led to an AI DoW on me in the 500 AD to 700 AD range when I had 4 or 5 cities up. That's doesn't usually happen if I go tall Tradition. So, if that's what you are likely to get if you go Liberty.
 
I played a couple of Liberty starts on immortal and I found that it consistently led to an AI DoW on me in the 500 AD to 700 AD range when I had 4 or 5 cities up. That's doesn't usually happen if I go tall Tradition. So, if that's what you are likely to get if you go Liberty.

Doesn't happen if you know how to deal with the AI. Tall tradition also has 4 cities in the beginning.... I've never had problems with either. Sometimes, you don't have enough room for the number of cities you want, in which case getting an early DOW is a good thing, but I've never been DOWed without instigating it on purpose (once by shaka, out of many many liberty and tradition games).

Especially on immortal (AI has significantly less cities than deity). Maybe you're settling your 4th/5th cities too fast?
 
Doesn't happen if you know how to deal with the AI. Tall tradition also has 4 cities in the beginning.... I've never had problems with either. Sometimes, you don't have enough room for the number of cities you want, in which case getting an early DOW is a good thing, but I've never been DOWed without instigating it on purpose (once by shaka, out of many many liberty and tradition games).

Especially on immortal (AI has significantly less cities than deity). Maybe you're settling your 4th/5th cities too fast?

There is a huge difference between immortal and deity; I believe they deserve separate discussions since on Deity you only have around half the land available generally speaking.

If you've never been DOW'd without instigation, you've clearly haven't played enough standard pangaea deity games/play only big maps with lots of space
thanks to warmonger penalty, getting DOW'd is never good. Best to not be so ambitious and settle for whatever number of cities you get (no need to panic if you only have 2, and you can be fully satisfied with 3)

And with tradition you can go 2 or 3 cities or OCC; the bonus is still good since the bulk of the bonuses affect the capitol, unlike liberty where you must expand to consolidate each SP's bonuses.
 
I find a mixed tradition/liberty opening to be really strong, with the policy order varying greatly depending on the flow of the game. Obviously this works best with Poland, but a modified version of it can work really well for other civs if you are willing to nab the oracle. The only downside for the typical route (trad opener> liberty to collective rule>finish tradition) is delayed free aqueducts, with the advantage of extra hammers and the smooth collective rule enhanced expansion.

Also, I often end up leaving the entire right side of liberty unfinished, or on the other hand only grabbing the tradition opener. If you do not like opening trees you do not plan to finish, I would not recommend this strategy. The whole point is its adaptability, which often means leaving a tree unfinished.
 
Whatever, it's a time-honored debate. I exclusively played Tradition (and won on Deity with it) until I got bored of it. I know how to use Tradition. Now I also know how to use Liberty. What I sense from most of the pro-Tradition posts is people who tried Liberty, struggled with it (like I did) and went back to Tradition, deciding it was better, instead of figuring it out. (like I did)

Well tracking my post history from G&K, I actually played out Liberty on roughly half of my starts, and I was a huge advocate of it. I had little problem figuring it out, and in G&K where the turn a city was originally founded was the greatest indicator of its strength, Liberty was capable of some pretty strong openings.

The "you're not doing it right" argument is a bit of a canard. If it were on Europa Universalis or some game like that, maybe. But in Civ V it is really not hard to figure out what do do with what bonuses. Liberty is not some monolithic puzzle to figure out.


In fact, it's better, period, at getting an army up, whether your goal is offense or defense. While you're building settlers, I'm killing barbarians, because I have more production and the settler discount frees me up to build about 4 archers instead. That's how you survive a tough start. Can you do it with Tradition? Sure. You can get both an army AND cities up fast with Honor and Piety too. It's just easier with Liberty. :)

Now on the other hand, this makes me think lots of people are doing Tradition wrong. Really, no one should be hard-building Settlers in this game on Deity, Standard map size, before at least Turn 80. The only games I can think of doing that on would be those win-or-go-home Domination games that I was talking about. If my goal is a survivable opening that keeps pace on tech on Deity, Settlers are not in my build queue.

What Tradition will do is get up Shrine/Granary/Library/NC, then you're free to build units. Scout first, most of the time, and that's really it. Sometimes Trad can build Monument to save Legalism for a free Ampi. If you're going after a Wonder at that point, then you'd better have a somewhat production-rich start, or you're probably doing it wrong. If you're hard-building Settlers at that point, Liberty or Tradition, you're probably going to have a bad time, on top of your city being useless for a good while in the first place. Correct in a vacuum is to save cash for a Settler. With your Hammers, you build a Caravan if available, then units in that spot. Tradition will most often use the Caravan for Beakers/Gold. After all, you're on Deity, so some AI with a huge tech advantage on you has forward settled in your face. Then with the Gold, not to mention the Gold from Monarcy, you buy Settlers as needed. Liberty is more often trying to piece together some Food route to the secondary city for that investment to make any sense, struggling with a smaller capital and lower production at that turn window, and consequently missing out on units.
 
What Tradition will do is get up Shrine/Granary/Library/NC, then you're free to build units. Scout first, most of the time, and that's really it. Sometimes Trad can build Monument to save Legalism for a free Ampi. If you're going after a Wonder at that point, then you'd better have a somewhat production-rich start, or you're probably doing it wrong. If you're hard-building Settlers at that point, Liberty or Tradition, you're probably going to have a bad time, on top of your city being useless for a good while in the first place. Correct in a vacuum is to save cash for a Settler. With your Hammers, you build a Caravan if available, then units in that spot. Tradition will most often use the Caravan for Beakers/Gold. After all, you're on Deity, so some AI with a huge tech advantage on you has forward settled in your face. Then with the Gold, not to mention the Gold from Monarcy, you buy Settlers as needed. Liberty is more often trying to piece together some Food route to the secondary city for that investment to make any sense, struggling with a smaller capital and lower production at that turn window, and consequently missing out on units.

EXACTLY. On immortal and below, this is the strat to go for; get that NC done and over with and your cap around 10 pop, THEN, only then do you expand (and about this time your empire is rather more secure; and if you have to hard build settlers, you do it in 2-4 turns rather than 7-10)

On deity this sometimes results in not having any spot left over to expand, which is the main drawback of tradition (however if terrain allows you to block settlers; you have an isolated spot which only you can access, tradition is clearly better); that's why I love civs like Polynesia or Austria who can "expand" in spots no other AI can reach (although I'm not that fond of Venice)
 
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