Liberty is very hard...

You keep assuming NC is in capital. If you're going wide, and one of your first two city spots has a mountain, the NC should be there. The only thing that doesn't synergize with this is CS, but none of your cities are growing as hard as tradition anyway.

Wide liberty plants more observatories, so freedom is actually IMO better than order (with capitalism and the specialist one as your happy boosters, the specialist one has anti synergy with tradition's happiness mechanic anyway, so freedom is very good for wide).

Anyway, I share your issues with the game's resistance mechanic, and how they apply to science and not culture. This (and hammers and gold) is why IMO, peaceful wide is a better route for science. It's harder to pull off though. I have to think this is not intended and if the game was actually receiving patch support that it'd get tweaked.

Interesting point about anti-synergy. (More specialists == less growth is I assume what you mean)

I do find it ironic that Liberty might be more appropriate for Wide, and Order for Tall. Fast-build factories help a small empire more, because small empires are more hammer-starved. (tough choices to make, whereas a wide empire can build units/etc. in satellites, allowing the capital to keep up with Wonders or new buildings it needs)

But, again, I still think that in order for a wide empire to out-perform a tall empire, science-wise, you either need to be Gandhi or get really lucky with respect to faith-based happiness buildings or something else, otherwise, you're happiness-limiting your growth. And each city has to be pretty awesome.. like, even with food trade routes, a satellite/expo is useless if it has no good production tiles. Plus you need to get a lot of workers out there to get those improvements out ASAP. That's just a ton of things to manage on top of the extra happiness issues...

I've been tempted to try wide SV with Gandhi for a while. (Another example of an intended behavior backfiring... speaking of balance issues... Gandhi is supposed to be bad at going wide, but after size 6, his wide empire generates less unhappiness!)
 
I think there is a missing factor in this discussion that helps liberty a bit - great scientists.

All else equal, having more cities WILL result in more GS over the course of the game, due to the way the counter resets and cities cycle through GS production. The more "scientist factories" you have, the less gap in turns from one GS to the next.

Having more cities is also going to provide a higher max BPT base. Pop growth in tall cities has diminishing returns compared to wide cities, which tend to be smaller so they grow faster. AS long as happiness is secured, by the time labs are built the wide player has had enough time to grow their cities large enough so that their output should always be larger than a tall player.

The downside of course is that peak will come significantly later in the game, for all the reasons discussed above.

But if the liberty player is getting more GS, AND gets more beakers out of those GS, it's not hard to imagine a situation where much of that disadvantage is actually being made up for, on the back end.
 
I've been tempted to try wide SV with Gandhi for a while. (Another example of an intended behavior backfiring... speaking of balance issues... Gandhi is supposed to be bad at going wide, but after size 6, his wide empire generates less unhappiness!)

Its not really unintended behavior as the unhappiness component of India's UA is simply there so you can't REX and take advantage of the UA early on. The unhappiness portion of the UA is static, the happiness portion is infinite.

India is a strong civ its just so bland though I can't stand to roll them often.
 
I think there is a missing factor in this discussion that helps liberty a bit - great scientists.

All else equal, having more cities WILL result in more GS over the course of the game, due to the way the counter resets and cities cycle through GS production. The more "scientist factories" you have, the less gap in turns from one GS to the next.

Having more cities is also going to provide a higher max BPT base. Pop growth in tall cities has diminishing returns compared to wide cities, which tend to be smaller so they grow faster. AS long as happiness is secured, by the time labs are built the wide player has had enough time to grow their cities large enough so that their output should always be larger than a tall player.

The downside of course is that peak will come significantly later in the game, for all the reasons discussed above.

But if the liberty player is getting more GS, AND gets more beakers out of those GS, it's not hard to imagine a situation where much of that disadvantage is actually being made up for, on the back end.

Anyone seen a "record" SV time on Deity? I know the Tradition record is somewhere in the t18x range. In my personal experience (admittedly, this is probably a result of not attempting them much) my Liberty SVs tend to be about 30 turns slower than my Tradition SVs. I haven't tried Diplo since the fall patch, and my Cultural times with Liberty are comparable to my Tradition times because I tend to supplement with conquest.
 
to be clear, i'm not saying that means liberty is faster. it's just another piece of the puzzle. SOME of the disadvantage can be made up for on the back end, presumably not all of it.
 
Anyone seen a "record" SV time on Deity? I know the Tradition record is somewhere in the t18x range. In my personal experience (admittedly, this is probably a result of not attempting them much) my Liberty SVs tend to be about 30 turns slower than my Tradition SVs. I haven't tried Diplo since the fall patch, and my Cultural times with Liberty are comparable to my Tradition times because I tend to supplement with conquest.

I think the real question for SV turn times is if you use Mongolia or not. Babs SV turn times don't mean much for how most civs play. Start at the baseline and work your way up.

The problem is that tall and wide are almost exactly balanced right now for a peaceful Mongolia. So, not having a benefit to actually going wide is kind of a buzz kill. It's more work for nothing. It's not that it doesn't work.
 
I think the real question for SV turn times is if you use Mongolia or not. Babs SV turn times don't mean much for how most civs play. Start at the baseline and work your way up.

The problem is that tall and wide are almost exactly balanced right now for a peaceful Mongolia. So, not having a benefit to actually going wide is kind of a buzz kill. It's more work for nothing. It's not that it doesn't work.

I don't think I'm ever going to agree with the idea of using civs who don't have synergies for a victory type as the measure. Every civ has advantages to *some* kind of victory type. It's silly to play Mongolia if you're not going to attack someone. Ridiculous and pointless except for the roleplaying humor value. At the same time, I agree that one shouldn't use the statistical outlier either. In the case of SV though, there are about 4-5 civs that can compete for record times and it's very hard to say which one is the best, but I do think that using one of those civs is perfectly valid unless said civ has specific synergies with going tall.

For example, The Inca have specific synergy with going tall in general, because even if you re-roll you will usually only find a few spots capable of supporting bad-ass terrace farms.

In fact, I'm inclined to believe that in general it's true that you will be hard-pressed to find 8+ awesome city spots, so that's another advantage to going tall, unless you're playing on an under-populated map type/size.

But, the point is, Babylon IS a good example, because they don't specifically benefit from going tall. Babylon's UA actually scales. (More cities = more GS)

Anyway, I do think it would be useful information. If Babylon can't do as good with Liberty as it does with Tradition, that tells us a lot about where the theoretical limits are. And even if you disagree with the validity of such conclusions, *I* would still find such information useful.

Also, this completely ignores the fact that the MAP has waaaay more to do with the outcome than the CIV. My second-fastest ever SV was with a warmonger civ, because I got perfect dirt, DF + Floodplains + forest to chop + a NW in my first expo, + an extra unique lux in the capital, and my neighbor built both Hanging Gardens and Temple of Artemis for me to steal, etc. etc.... There are so many factors involving luck that which civ you use isn't the most important factor unless you do many re-rolls.

So, given all that, yes I'd like to know who set the liberty SV Deity record in BNW, and what that was. (Or Immortal for that matter, probably a more valid measure)
 
You keep assuming NC is in capital. If you're going wide, and one of your first two city spots has a mountain, the NC should be there.

NC on top of observatory? I guess if you are committed to planting all academies and guilds in the mountainside expo it would make a difference. I mean you will almost definitely want science specialists maxed in both - 2 scientists with nothing plus 2 scientists with NC and observatory is the same as 2 with NC and 2 with observatory. Any per-city beaker yield including base population would be the same with the NC in either. Only academies and guilds are "per empire" so you would benefit from doubling them with NC and Observatory in one city. But it has to be gauged with population yield. Will the mountainside expo have high pop? Losing NC x50% on capital population science might not be worth an extra x50% on academies, even on wide, especially since guilds follow population.
 
NC on top of observatory? I guess if you are committed to planting all academies and guilds in the mountainside expo it would make a difference. I mean you will almost definitely want science specialists maxed in both - 2 scientists with nothing plus 2 scientists with NC and observatory is the same as 2 with NC and 2 with observatory. Any per-city beaker yield including base population would be the same with the NC in either. Only academies and guilds are "per empire" so you would benefit from doubling them with NC and Observatory in one city. But it has to be gauged with population yield. Will the mountainside expo have high pop? Losing NC x50% on capital population science might not be worth an extra x50% on academies, even on wide, especially since guilds follow population.

I had a pretty much dream second city, with only one mountain, high food yields, excellent production and forked tailed riverline, in my second city.

I put the observatory there, and I mistakenly put the NC early game, into my capital, I think.

My capital was really kind of horrible start, food poor, half the tiles were flat desert (with petra it became manageable), no sea resources. I only had truffles there, and iron. Here are some nice pics. http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/594776084417400960/D634D189C92BEA14F6A08E19CE25D94198401725/1024x576.resizedimage

Bronx, my second city turned out to be a monster-city with excellent hammers, gold and beakers, and most importantly high food, even though my capital city Manhattan had all the wonders mid-late game. (more out of necessity I suppose)
http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/594776084417398754/99A347B7DDEE8238B3E4FA5F35EADFFCFB626B27/1024x576.resizedimage


My tactic in that game as America? build two cities, and capture and puppet everything else LOL :D

-Started war vs Assyria, comp bows, swordsmen.

-followed by wars with trebs, longswords, minutemen, x-bows

-finished up with artillery, Great War infantries and cavalries.

PS: I SHOUDL HAVE USED MORE FOOD TRADE ROUTES LOL. Instead of manual growing, toiling in the agricultural farms, why work in the field when you get food "out of magic wall", free food from caravans lol :D
 
NC on top of observatory? I guess if you are committed to planting all academies and guilds in the mountainside expo it would make a difference. I mean you will almost definitely want science specialists maxed in both - 2 scientists with nothing plus 2 scientists with NC and observatory is the same as 2 with NC and 2 with observatory. Any per-city beaker yield including base population would be the same with the NC in either. Only academies and guilds are "per empire" so you would benefit from doubling them with NC and Observatory in one city. But it has to be gauged with population yield. Will the mountainside expo have high pop? Losing NC x50% on capital population science might not be worth an extra x50% on academies, even on wide, especially since guilds follow population.

Well, the extra science on academies is 8, 10 by midgame and 12 by endgame. Not even counting the freedom tennant, that's plus 4-6 science per academy per my second city versus your capital. Starting midgame, that's 5 extra pop the capital needs to catch up, per academy. Or, if we count non-science specialists, because you'll be working the science ones anyway, that's 1 academy per 2 extra pop. Or, after Freedom, that's 3.5 extra pop. After freedom and uranium, that's 4 extra pop per academy. If you're science focused, you'll have at least 3 academies. That's 12 endgame pop needed for the capital to break even with the observatory city. No food routes.

Now, compared to the capital, each pop is worth ~33% more starting mid game with an observatory, and 20% more endgame after labs. So, factor that into the baseline for each extra pop, via food routes you send. You've basically made your food routes and happiness 20% more science efficient overall. And liberty is desperate for happiness efficient science mid-game.

It's really not much of a contest for Liberty to be sure to use a mountain city as NC city, even if it's not the capital. Tradition has a growth bonus to pop, which evens out the pop more (still ultimately not worth it, but it's much closer, and you can get the NC up earlier in your city with much more pop, and you get more happiness and gold to offset the slight loss in science).
 
So, I just completed the first 200 turns of a Liberty game as Denmark (Deity level), and I have to say I do think the ideal play has changed a lot from G&K to BNW.

First, let me share a bit about the map conditions. Initially I rolled Denmark with the idea of a Metal Casting-Beserker rush. I began on a relatively Hammer-poor coastal site for my Capital, opened Tradition, and a bit into the game I discovered a phenomenal single-tile choke to the East blocking off 3 civs on that sub-continent. Far to the Northwest, there was also a great double-choke around both sides of a mountain range, holding back Sweden on a Petra start. There was probably enough space on the right for 4-cities, and enough on the left for 4 more. Two mercantile CS's in range, each with unique luxes. More importantly, a Beserker rush was going to make for a boring game. So, I restarted with the aim of testing out Liberty.

The result was that I was impressed overall, but not until after a great amount of patience. I did manage to open two Culture huts(!!), but I don't think that quite invalidates the game. Then, I understandably went for CR first, and I just expanded as fast as my legs could carry me. Pretty fast, that is, considering that I was able to ally both Mercantiles, multiple luxury trades were open, and half the new cities had a unique luxury of theirs on top of that. At turn 200 now, I am at or around the tech leader. Population has been the main driver of my Science all game.


The main thing that I noticed about this approach was how back-loaded the tech tree is in terms of raw Beakers. It probably takes the same number of Beakers to research two or three Medieval techs as it does one Renaissance tech. The result is that being behind in the early game only puts you slightly behind overall, once you do catch-up. Looking at the tech tree in terms of Beakers needed rather than total techs reveals that you can sacrifice yield of ~10 Beakers/Turn from T60-T100 due to delaying the NC, and it only amounts to a fraction of a tech come Industrial Era. The main objective is to get to Education ASAP to get those Universities staffed. That goes with basically every other tech. It's not so much about slogging through them as it is being able to use their benefits right away, or not. And Philo is one tech that an expansive opening is not able to use immediately, most of the time. In theory, going to Education through Civil Service first rather than Theology should be just as viable, as long as you don't dally too much getting there and you make up the 10 or so Beakers for the NC elsewhere.

Speaking of that, the ability to select the optimum Science site for the NC while going wide often more than offsets the penalty for not getting it early, at least in terms of Beakers per game. In this game, I found a very nice Coastal city with plenty of Jungle as my second. The NC on top of the University and Jungle TP's there have led to really great yield. I imagine the same would apply for an Observatory city. The only trick is getting high enough production, whether through ITR's or tile yield, because the NC is much more expensive on 6-7 cities.

Balancing against vertical openings as well, there is a point in the game after you've hit your 2nd GP or so that you are far more limited in your Beaker yield by your Population and Land Area than you are your ability to dedicate the Capital to Science. Land is still power in that spot, and that's also the point where conquest becomes appropriate for a standard Trad opening, but there is something to be said about settling those sites yourself, if available.

If you do settle those cities, you definitely want to settle them early, notwithstanding ITR support. The reason is, certainly, that 5% static cost increase. For an empire with a Beaker yield of 20, that's break-even when you add the Beaker from that first pop, and then all positive thereafter. So in that stage of the game, settling helps you tech. For a post-NC empire with a Beaker yield of 100 though, you're only break-even after 4 pop and Library, and behind on every input other than tech to even get there. That's to say nothing about the T150+ empire with beaker yields twice or three times that. At that stage, it's probably just expansion through conquest, keeping prime city sites only. It's a bit of a canard to say that early cities cost you less, because it's all 5% across the board, but the issue is a city being able to contribute immediately to your tech progress. Building Beaker yield early-game then expanding is rear-end backwards, seen in that light.

Another thing that I noticed but did not try in this game, Liberty openings seem to hybridize with other SP trees much better than Tradition openings. With Trad, I always want to finish ASAP to get those Aqueducts. But Reformation and Meritocracy are rarely in full effect at the time they become available, and there's even a strong argument to delaying the GP until after the first natural Great Scientist, in order to get a 200 point gift instead. You could start either Piety or Commerce for standard play, left-side Honor for warmongering, or Aesthetics/Exploration on certain starts.

Overall though, I do think that wide Tradition is a safer bet on most maps. If you can settle half a dozen good city sites without angering any neighbors AND if you can have good ITR service to your Capital AND if you can keep happy up all the while, then you'll be able to hold on long enough for Liberty's long-term nature to kick in. But, that is a lot of if's. Tradition with all 4 cities is usually still wide enough for your territory size not to bottleneck your tech progress, with additional cities added through conquest or stacking multiple coastal ITR's. And the assumption at the time you have to make the choice is that you are not on the kind of map for 6+ cities, which puts you in Trad unless you restart like I did.
 
Yay, people actually trying out liberty. And cudos for trying it with an almost Mongolia civ.

150 turns is usually my cutoff for settling new cities (except for CV) too. It's when returns go from "provides a larger safety net to end the game in a timely manner" to, will barely break even.

To your points about the conditions where wide > tall, they are mostly valid, but happens more often than you think:

1. Angering neighbors is okay, as long as it's not super early. For every hammer you waste on units, you can get approximate value back in the wonders and cities you take over. Just be sure to know exactly when you are angering them, and set up your diplo with all the other civs before there's any action. It's the GK philosophy with a diplo element, and slightly lower payoff.

2. Keeping happy. This is key, and the hardest thing to manage. Unless you get an amazing religion, or are Egypt, you will not have enough early happy to go more than 4 cities. Scout well, save your gold, check your allies' luxuries often, and fight hard for those 2 mercantile CSs.


3. You only need good ITR service to two cities, your guild city, and your NC + mountain/jungle city. The culture city really only needs 1 or 2 30 turn food route to get going, so this is not a horribly difficult condition overall. Because liberty has no growth modifiers, it's really not as imperative to have good food routes as it is for tradition. It's obviously preferable though.
 
My previously mentioned Austria game has turned out to be the "tallest" wide game I've played in BNW, which I'm happy about. I lucked into allying 2-3 food CSs from early game. I avoided farm tiles a lot of the time to compensate, but still all my cities were medium-size in no time.

My second - fourth cities were settled between turn 30-50 and fifth to seventh were turn 105-112. I always settle in batches now. Eighth city was Lhasa around turn 170?ish?, which I bought for the navy. Wide is a lot healthier in gpt when your cities are also tall. This is an obvious theory but it's hard to put in practice. Pagodas helped, but really I just lucked into having access to all but 2 of the luxes for most of the game. With tall cities I've been making money since about turn 120 which is another first for my BNW wide games.

It also helps that I had four flood-plane calendar luxes in my capital - working gold tiles is more appealing when they have a faith dot too. Commerce tree was appealing since I was working gold in cap.

Immortal, Large, no reloading, intentionally avoided Rationalism for a while because I like longer games. Missed out on so much. Missed Petra - and NC was hugely delayed by trying for it - missed Eiffel, missed first adopt of Order (I ended up taking Freedom instead - Freedom + wide, it's been interesting), just tons of stuff went wrong. But Freedom turned out a good choice since I popped 8 landmarks. About 25% chance of pulling diplo victory in 10 more turns, I'm not racing.

Spoiler :
civaus1.png
 
Freedom is really nice I got to to admit. Who doesn't like lady liberty? Nicest wonder in the game IMO :D



I played that game of mine as Liberty America, with later pick autocracy (I think). So, I had only settled 2 cities, and killed off everybody else, in due time. It was only king difficulty though.

I gotta admit, it feels really CHEEKY escorting workers protected by minutemen, into enemy improvements surrounding their cities.

Then you attack with line units, pillage improvement, repair improvement within the same turn (liberty + pyramids worker improvement boost)

Next turn, pillage improvement and attack again. :D
 
Was playing earlier and had a great idea.

I think liberty needs another small mini-rework. A small buff would be that something like, the capital would be able to produce settlers without stalling the growth of the city building them, and slightly nerf the +50% settler production to something like 25%.

Or, we could revert the Republic and Free Settler policy, but I did think having a free city that early was kind of OP.
 
I did a few more Liberty openings, and I'm noticing some awkwardness.

The Collective Rule opening seems awfully contingent on a Culture Hut. If I don't have one, my Capital always gets to the point where I'm growing into 2f tiles, in which spot I've gotten into the habit of building Settlers under Liberty. So, I get no bonus unless I wait. The other alternative is to go Citizenship first, which seems terrible.

Also, Happiness can range anywhere from a chore to a game-ender. I have to look for Mercantiles, then hope their personality trait gives me an achievable quest. What I really want, in the meantime, are Cultural CS's. The native Meritocracy not only comes very late relative to Monarchy, but it also asks for a bit of Gold maintenance in advance for Roads in the process of being connected, which I am not at all disposed advancing with a warlike, 6 cities empire. Can't wait for Pillage-Repair.

Bottom line, Liberty needs luck in several specific spots to even play its own game, much less out-compete Tradition.
 
1. Angering neighbors is okay, as long as it's not super early. For every hammer you waste on units, you can get approximate value back in the wonders and cities you take over. Just be sure to know exactly when you are angering them, and set up your diplo with all the other civs before there's any action. It's the GK philosophy with a diplo element, and slightly lower payoff.

2. Keeping happy. This is key, and the hardest thing to manage. Unless you get an amazing religion, or are Egypt, you will not have enough early happy to go more than 4 cities. Scout well, save your gold, check your allies' luxuries often, and fight hard for those 2 mercantile CSs.


3. You only need good ITR service to two cities, your guild city, and your NC + mountain/jungle city. The culture city really only needs 1 or 2 30 turn food route to get going, so this is not a horribly difficult condition overall. Because liberty has no growth modifiers, it's really not as imperative to have good food routes as it is for tradition. It's obviously preferable though.

1. This you will have to commit to (there is no turning back); the city will be there all game and even if you are on good terms with them early game, by late game you need to either kiss their ass or prepare to deal with them militarily. Hence, an expansion that, for example, nets you two new neighbors is a risky venture; I find that easiest games are the games you have only one immediate neighbor, but that neighbor starts out surrounded by multiple civs. In your own words, the hammers you spent on defending that outpost NEEDS to be consolidated by taking over their wonders (not always a sure thing unless you commit to going domination, and even then if your neighbor is a warmonger himself, chances are he doesn't have many wonders...) Meanwhile another civ on the other side of the world has started running away because he stayed peaceful.

2. I agree; I always wonder about people who open 8+ cities... do they have mods that add more mercantile luxes like chocolate or whatnot? You only need ally 2 mercatile CS, the rest you can remain friends but simply porcelain and jewelry is a mere 8 happiness... barely enough to satisfy 4 cities in my experience... either you need to go deep in mercantilism, stay flat on some cities, not growing them, or somehow make so much money you also ally a good portion of other types of CS on the map... (or waste a ton of hammers building the horrible buildings that are zoos and stadiums) and don't even get me started on if you missed out on a lot of tourism/culture wonders and start taking ideological pressure...

3. Unless they are sea routes, one is far from enough in my experience... their growth starts to stall out in their teens (that, and somehow you will need to build/buy aqueducts, which tradition doesn't need to do); you say liberty has no growth modifiers, so you should give up on extra food and going tall altogether?
 
IMO, the hammer cost is not terribly significant on a medium size army. In the scope of an entire game.

Of course early military and early war are crucial in a certain sense, though (rushes and defending against them)

What tends to be more expensive is the gold unit maintenance.

Every turn your army takes away gpt, which can be used in turn for maany things, to make your empire economy stronger, instead. (buy gold buildings or science buildings etc...)

Tradition, even partially to oligarchy, allows you to maintain cheap army fortified into cities, but beyond that your army starts costing loads o' dough

The thing that sucks about BNW is that warmongering isn't really "profitable" anymore in a certain sense. War is not that difficult in BNW, it's simply that war is penalized too much with arbitrary modifiers in BNW (compared with vanilla and GnK - it doesn't make warmongering strictly more difficult, it just makes warring more unprofitable and tedius from gameplay perspective). Also warmonger penalty is kind of silly. I would have preferred that it scaled more in line with domination victory condition progress (such as number of capitals held by civ)

Compared to GnK and vanilla of course.

Arbitrary modifiers which nerf warmongering playstile are world congress voting, (no mechanic to veto, or renege on resolutions, which infact happens in reality), also most importantly the science penalty which penalizes utterly, the conquering playstyle of warmongering.

Early war simply exhausts your empire because of negative science modifier, and undeveloped low pop cities. Late war is slightly better in this aspect, though. (because cities are more juicy targets and more developed infrastructure)

Remember guys that in CIV4 we didn't have this mentality of "let's raze every city because of science/culture penalty". The mentality in that game was, "Thanks for the hammers you spent on settler and nicely built city that was granted to me"
 
1. This you will have to commit to (there is no turning back); the city will be there all game and even if you are on good terms with them early game, by late game you need to either kiss their ass or prepare to deal with them militarily. Hence, an expansion that, for example, nets you two new neighbors is a risky venture; I find that easiest games are the games you have only one immediate neighbor, but that neighbor starts out surrounded by multiple civs. In your own words, the hammers you spent on defending that outpost NEEDS to be consolidated by taking over their wonders.

3. Unless they are sea routes, one is far from enough in my experience... their growth starts to stall out in their teens (that, and somehow you will need to build/buy aqueducts, which tradition doesn't need to do); you say liberty has no growth modifiers, so you should give up on extra food and going tall altogether?

1. Not at all. No commitment needed. On Deity, your neighbor is almost guaranteed to have wonders. Also, just the city/land itself can offset the hammers. It's not that many hammers to build a nice 6 unit CB army or 8 unit artillery-based army. If you play your diplo right, you can attack someone with friends and AI won't care that much. Take his 2 starting cities, sue for peace and take his other ones in the deal. That's only 2 cities of warmongering. Bonus if you can liberate something.

3. It's not black and white. You just don't have to push it. Aqueducts come after workshop, etc, except in the 2-3 cities you're actually growing. I find the midgame 10-12 pop more than sufficient for most cities to stop growing until hospitals, it's not like you have happiness until then anyway. The guilds city needs at least 15 pop for CV and 18 for non-CV. It's not like tradition where you blindly push growth, because that's the I win button. You have to actually micromanage everything. A lot more work and thinking, but you get results. It's like how war is more work than peace, with uncertain payoffs. But, if you do it right, there ARE net payoffs.

I think if people really went for it, they'll find that for most civs, 6 city tradition > 4 city tradition, even in BNW.
 
3. It's not black and white. You just don't have to push it. Aqueducts come after workshop, etc, except in the 2-3 cities you're actually growing. I find the midgame 10-12 pop more than sufficient for most cities to stop growing until hospitals, it's not like you have happiness until then anyway. The guilds city needs at least 15 pop for CV and 18 for non-CV. It's not like tradition where you blindly push growth, because that's the I win button. You have to actually micromanage everything. A lot more work and thinking, but you get results. It's like how war is more work than peace, with uncertain payoffs. But, if you do it right, there ARE net payoffs.

Yeah, I still see a lot of good players in LP's blindly growing into 2f tiles early game. With Tradition, it doesn't really matter, in Capital at least, because every Citizen is at worst 2 Beakers, and you've probably built all it makes sense to build anyway without switching to that 2h-3h tile. Arguable mistake, no penalty. That makes Tradition best, right? No, just make fewer mistakes.

Or worse, I keep seeing LP's where that Grassland/Jungle city with no Hills is 6 pop just because it could get there, stuck building a Library, and meanwhile the magnificent Double-Iron, Horses, etc city is stuck at 3 pop building a Colosseum to support all the 2f workers down the road. Makes sense why players bad at managing cities would favor builds that have them managing fewer.

On the other hand, I see other players, notably as Shoshone, simply grow to work all bonus tiles, then switch to those unimproved 2h Hills. As Tradtiion. And get Turn 200 win times doing that.

There's actually a lot to consider, and people should be prepared to do that. Is it worth it to pay Maintenance for that Granary right now? Do I want to work that 2f3g Luxury tile or that 3f Farm? Do I go negative Happy to Settle or wait? Among these questions, what tiles am I growing Population to work within my satellite cities is among the most basic. You won't get the best results out of either Liberty or Tradition, not to mention your city placement, unless you're in the habit of asking those questions early game.
 
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