Liberty is very hard...

Bananas. With jungles, I try to keep at least 6 jungles alive and obtain food elsewhere.

The problem with science slots are that mid game GS are worse than GEs for all play besides science VC, so you're actually trying to avoid working scientist slots. Also, let's not bring Korea/Babs into this. In these discussions, I assume we're playing Mongolia peaceful.

The whole point of food is that its benefits roll forward into science. But, that logic goes out the window when you have actual science. That's why you work specialist slots. That's why science civs are better than food civs.

How many farms do you need to support 3 slots until hospital anyway? Oh yeah, 3. Or, 2 bananas and a granary. And if you have a river, instead of chopping, you already get an extra 2 food from the water wheel. Upkeep is fine with no farms, or 2 farms max. One ITR will grow you there. Then you can upkeep without worrying about growth.

I would only chop if desperate for hammers. But, I usually buy tiles (or a workshop) instead. Gold is less precious than science.

The problem with this low-pop, slot Scientist strategy is that a ton of your empire-wide Science comes from multipliers on your leading cities. That's University, National College, etc in Capital. It's like that all game because your cities are always in the process of getting to the next population point, building or tech level where it becomes productive. That is the slog of the game. You get more Beakers because you got more tech and built more buildings. Your Beaker yield going up does not mean that you're out-pacing another opening. It's just the pace of the game.

Put another way, you should consider your change in Beaker yield rather than your flat Beaker amount. However many Beakers are coming from whatever source, the relevant thing to measure is the marginal cost of the next Beaker. How much does it cost to get one more? In terms of Food and Happy, the cheapest Beaker at the margin throughout most of the game is going to be one Citizen in the Capital (or whatever city has best Food and Science multipliers). As above, you turn Hammers into Beakers at a more or less constant rate along with the pace of the game. You also turn Hammers/Gold into Happy through various means, which turns into pop. But the marginal Beaker at the bottom line comes from a Citizen.

Tradition is better at Science precisely because it keeps the Food and Happy (and thereby Hammer and Gold) cost of that marginal Beaker down. Monarchy, Landed Elite and the Finisher do that in the Capital, and in such a way that a Citizen there, along with multipliers, most often represents the cheapest Beaker anywhere in the Empire. Sometimes you are unable to pay the marginal cost, and sometimes you are unwilling due to other Empire metrics, but that's the cost. Expanding to give yourself more stuff to pay the marginal cost is a less effective means than just reducing the cost, because the game is designed to restrict your acquisition of that stuff (cities, etc) for reasons that have to deal with general gameplay rather than just Beaker yield.

So all considered, growing a Jungle city with an ITR for the sole purpose of getting it to zero net Food and building a University there is at best a break-even proposition by the point in the game that you can do it. Much more so with the +5%. You simply want as many Citizens and Happy as you can possibly get.
 
This is why bonus slots for internal trade-routes is one of the most sorely needed buffs to liberty/wide for BNW (I say liberty should give two free internal TR slots (instead of rip-off Golden Age), some have said 1 every 5 cites). The benefit of TRs to satellite cities never outweighs the opportunity cost of TR to cap.
 
This is why bonus slots for internal trade-routes is one of the most sorely needed buffs to liberty/wide for BNW (I say liberty should give two free internal TR slots (instead of rip-off Golden Age), some have said 1 every 5 cites). The benefit of TRs to satellite cities never outweighs the opportunity cost of TR to cap.

That would make liberty overpowered. Maybe only 1, not more than that.

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Maybe Pyramids should enable one additional Trade Route, like Petra/Colossus. Those are two of my favorite Wonders right now. But I don't think that this game is getting another content patch like that. Too bad really, because I think SP's are one of the areas that this game is the most flat, with trees like Honor out there competing with Tradition.
 
That would make liberty overpowered. Maybe only 1, not more than that.

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Possibly. It's essentially 8 free apples or hammers for the Liberty civ to shuffle around, early game, so it's dangerously on par with the Tradition percentage bonuses which make Tradition so OP, but the thing about playing wide (not just liberty but wide) is that you are never perfectly efficient. You have exponentially more to do, so you make poorer decisions (every added decision is a chance to get something wrong with generates the need for more decisions, some of which you will also get wrong, especially when you factor increased AI dislike and friction due to your land-grabbing). Your cities finish buildings to become better but then you just end up broke paying for the buildings. Your cities grow to become stronger but you end up unhappy and miss the crucial Civil Service -> Education growth spurt in your capital.

Whereas in a tall empire (not just Tradition but tall), everything just works out. Your resources are so concentrated that anything positive you do generates more positive outcomes later, and you are never punished for success. You end up with these 3 or 4 unbelievably healthy cities that can finish any new building in 5 turns.

Giving a wide empire free TR slots won't remove the essential checks on growth and success. Those extra 8 food/hammers will essentially be wasted when things are going well. They will make their impact when things aren't going well - they will help the wide civ bounce back after an unhappy period or when a founded city is lagging.

But in this spirit, scaling it to empire size makes a lot of sense - 1 extra iTR slot per 5 cities, I'm starting to lean toward that.
 
But in this spirit, scaling it to empire size makes a lot of sense - 1 extra iTR slot per 5 cities, I'm starting to lean toward that.

Maybe limit it to cities you actually found, and not conquered. World domination would be too easy otherwise. Or just straight up give one extra trade route and a free caravan similar to the Petra bonus, since I doubt anybody would want to found 10 cities just for an extra trade route.
 
Maybe Pyramids should enable one additional Trade Route, like Petra/Colossus. Those are two of my favorite Wonders right now. But I don't think that this game is getting another content patch like that. Too bad really, because I think SP's are one of the areas that this game is the most flat, with trees like Honor out there competing with Tradition.

No way! The Pyramids is already an extremely strong wonder. That would make it crazy OP!!
 
No way! The Pyramids is already an extremely strong wonder. That would make it crazy OP!!

Agreed. Liberty needs two things:

1) You shouldn't be able to repair improvements outside of friendly territory. End of story. Nerf-bat.
2) The science penalty should be reduced from 5% to 3% per city with the Liberty closer.

But, long before any changes should be made to Liberty, Honor and Piety need tweaking to be more competitive as starting trees.

Liberty is awesome right now. In most Domination games, it far outshines Honor and even Tradition, primarily because of the tremendous advantage pillage-repair gives invading armies. Where it suffers is with other victory conditions, because of the aforementioned Science penalty. Going wide is just a bad idea right now.
 
Where it suffers is with other victory conditions, because of the aforementioned Science penalty. Going wide is just a bad idea right now.

In what respect? Even a really flat wide empire is going to take over a tall empire in science and turns-until-next-tech eventually. In my experience it's always by turn 250.

In the meantime a player should not notice any non-puppet city generating less than 5% of their total science, ever. No city is ever contributing less science than it "costs" via the penalty. Even if they look really hard they should never find a time that the penalty is out-doing the benefit for additional cities, beyond the odd city-founded-in-the-mid-turn-100s.

The real cost of the wide empire's additional cities is lower growth in the capital / core cities (via happiness caps, lower gpt for rush-buys, higher incidence of AI friction, etc). Flatter capitals mean lower return on NC, lower time teching to Education, longer time finishing university, lower return per university, etc. It means lower beakers until turn 250. Then the wide empire has more.

The only reason tall is "better" at science is that it gets to Radio or Artillery faster. At which point it can just conquer a ton of cities and become wider than the self-founded wide empire.

Removing or tempering the science penalty might get the wide empire to Radio/Artillery on turn 180 but actually, probably not. Even if it turns on education 10 turns earlier. Probably won't make a difference, and isn't the real science problem for wide empires. I'm curious why you think it would be different.
 
In what respect? Even a really flat wide empire is going to take over a tall empire in science and turns-until-next-tech eventually. In my experience it's always by turn 250.

In the meantime a player should not notice any non-puppet city generating less than 5% of their total science, ever. No city is ever contributing less science than it "costs" via the penalty. Even if they look really hard they should never find a time that the penalty is out-doing the benefit for additional cities, beyond the odd city-founded-in-the-mid-turn-100s.

The real cost of the wide empire's additional cities is lower growth in the capital / core cities (via happiness caps, lower gpt for rush-buys, higher incidence of AI friction, etc). Flatter capitals mean lower return on NC, lower time teching to Education, longer time finishing university, lower return per university, etc. It means lower beakers until turn 250. Then the wide empire has more.

The only reason tall is "better" at science is that it gets to Radio or Artillery faster. At which point it can just conquer a ton of cities and become wider than the self-founded wide empire.

Removing or tempering the science penalty might get the wide empire to Radio/Artillery on turn 180 but actually, probably not. Even if it turns on education 10 turns earlier. Probably won't make a difference, and isn't the real science problem for wide empires. I'm curious why you think it would be different.

thing is, the really good players have already won SV by turn 250 :lol:

The -50% unhappiness from capitol that tradition has becomes game-breaking late game as well; liberty can only out-science tradition only when happiness is not an issue (which it is atm unless you play with mods that add more luxes)
 
thing is, the really good players have already won SV by turn 250 :lol:

The -50% unhappiness from capitol that tradition has becomes game-breaking late game as well; liberty can only out-science tradition only when happiness is not an issue (which it is atm unless you play with mods that add more luxes)

Exactly. I mean this is why any discussion of the science penalty feels like a red herring. What would really even up game performance for tall vs wide? Well, closing off early victory routes, making it so the game is still up in the air post 250. I don't personally care about this - I prefer to avoid tech leads in my games as they displace all the other game mechanics. It's fine with me to go past 250, I don't worry about optimal tall play. I like liberty, I like wide, but true wide play doesn't really work right now (doesn't even get turn 300 victories), and it's for other reasons (huge gold income penalty, religion changes, etc).
 
Agreed. Liberty needs two things:

1) You shouldn't be able to repair improvements outside of friendly territory. End of story. Nerf-bat.
2) The science penalty should be reduced from 5% to 3% per city with the Liberty closer.

But, long before any changes should be made to Liberty, Honor and Piety need tweaking to be more competitive as starting trees.

Liberty is awesome right now. In most Domination games, it far outshines Honor and even Tradition, primarily because of the tremendous advantage pillage-repair gives invading armies. Where it suffers is with other victory conditions, because of the aforementioned Science penalty. Going wide is just a bad idea right now.

Disagree with science penalty. What if I just choose not to build more than 4 cities? Wouldn't liberty be out teching Tradition 4 cities by alot? Even now, with 7 liberty cities properly developed they are already out teching tradition.

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Disagree with science penalty. What if I just choose not to build more than 4 cities? Wouldn't liberty be out teching Tradition 4 cities by alot? Even now, with 7 liberty cities properly developed they are already out teching tradition.

Probably the food bonus on tradition out-does a hypothetical liberty 9 - 13% tech cost discount (100/109-100/115) on a four-city-only empire until everything's over 20 pop ie turn 250 so it wouldn't change the balance much. It would mean tall empires are great at teching to Modern first whether they take Tradition or Liberty, which is already true in certain terrain (liberty can be good for tall empires).
 
Hi guys, I have been following this forum for quite a while, but never wrote anything. Here I want to add something regarding the science penalty.

Isn't the science penalty basically the same thing we had in Civ IV? Back then founding a new city increased maintenance costs, therefore taking away commerce from the science slider to pay the maintenance. If you founded too many cities, you had to reduce the slider. To overcome the increased maint., you had to invest in the new cities to make them worthwhile.

How is that different from the penalty in Civ V? Here you also reduce your tech rate by expanding. And you also have to overcome it by making the new cities worthwhile.
 
Hi guys, I have been following this forum for quite a while, but never wrote anything. Here I want to add something regarding the science penalty.

Isn't the science penalty basically the same thing we had in Civ IV? Back then founding a new city increased maintenance costs, therefore taking away commerce from the science slider to pay the maintenance. If you founded too many cities, you had to reduce the slider. To overcome the increased maint., you had to invest in the new cities to make them worthwhile.

How is that different from the penalty in Civ V? Here you also reduce your tech rate by expanding. And you also have to overcome it by making the new cities worthwhile.

If I am not mistaken that penalty was applied additively as opposed to as a percentage... I am not sure how much that distinction matters, but I will say that the penalty is proportionally a lot heftier in Civ 5 BNW than it was in Civ 4. Also, it felt a lot more organic in civ 4 than civ 5's current state (it feels unnatural that the extrinsic factor of expansion directly reduces the effectiveness of the science my preexisting cities produce, as opposed to indirectly reducing it by calling for a shifting of priorities from science to commerce to meet the financial demands of a larger empire). The penalty arose likely as a slapped on solution to the problems of runaway ai's and the old supremacy of ICS over going tall. Most people would have preferred a more thoughtful approach which targeted underlying balance issues.
 
Tradition is plainly better than liberty but only by a small margin. On the last big modifications, they hampered early gold and happiness, Tradition not only maintained all the bonuses, but got the Ingeneer faith purchase. Also they tackled against wide and early warmongering, and toned down religion a bit, indirectly giving a better position to Tradition.

The problem lies in how to play both trees, liberty works very different, and you have to work out more to make it work, as it has low happiness and gold, unlike Tradition that gives you what you need with little work.

Some quick advices:

- Don't over-expand: With both Tradition and liberty you goal is to setup your 3 to 5 city initial setup. Liberty is no longer a way to get more initial cities working, you get your initial cities up and running faster, but that's all. On midgame at least you have the upper hand for more expansion once your base empire is running.

- Don't play like tradition: focusing on growth at all times, and building any core building at all times carelessly. Coloseums have much higher priority, and you may wan't to not grow a city for some time until you have the luxuries up and running and some extra happiness from and source beforehand.

- Pay extra attention to CS quests and trade as much as you can, plan your happiness and gold more carefully. Spend the little gold you get in buying important tiles.

- Liberty nature is so different, a good advice is to lower difficulty and try a few times until you get the hang of it.

If anything it makes sense that Engineers should belong to Liberty, not Tradition.

Totally agree, after all Liberty is THE productive ancient policy branch. I guess is just about the preference towards tall and peace that the developers have.
 
IMO to fix the early branches,
Liberty buffed, should get a reduction to the science penalty per city from 5% to 3%.

Tradition nerfed, the benefit to Monarchy should be reduced to 1 unhappiness per 3 citizens also Landed Elite split in two parts +2 food in capital and growth bonus where Oligarchy is currently

Honor buffed, Gets Oligarchy in addition to Culture and Happiness from Garrisons also cities with a garrison get a 10% growth bonus.

Piety buffed Theocracy gives +1 culture for shrines, +2 culture for temples. Religious Tolerance, you get the follower beliefs of the second most popular religion
 
For certain situations, Tradition is better, undoubtedly. But I think the overwhelming preference for it among players is because most players would prefer to play unmolested. In other words, OCC, cranking out all the buildings and wonders they want, making a settler when they finally decide they want to expand, no pressure, just building their city up. The bonuses from Tradition support that mindset very well.

The bonuses in Liberty are all about getting your cities up fast, your workers up fast, your archers up fast, your improvements up fast. Fast, fast, fast, aggressive play. Which just so happens to suit Domination well, and also Deity, because you can defend yourself better and get your cities out in the choice spots. (Which often triggers aggression)

Now, the consistent response I keep hearing is that settling cities that aggressively is a mistake, you don't need 4 choice city locations, etc. etc. but the reality, backed up by the comments in every challenge thread, is that often you get attacked even when you don't forward settle, and that two cities, or non-ideal spots, just don't have the growth, production or unique luxuries to keep you competitive.

Aggressively settling 4 strong cities and defending the DoWs if they come will often ensure you don't get Shaka'd or struggle to win your victory condition later.

Yes, if you can get 3 strong cities out with trade routes, you can win the game with Tradition or Liberty. But the difference between getting a good expo spot and not getting (On Deity!) it is almost *always* whether you settle before t45. Which is why when I play tradition I always start building settlers by roughly t30 or 4 pop. It's the only way to keep up with Liberty when it comes to getting 3 cities up. Which you eventually need. This only 2-city NC thing is great in a vacuum or on Immortal or below, but if you do 2-city NC, 2 is often all you'll get.

And, for getting 4 cities settled, Tradition can't compete. So, Liberty's (notable) nerfing in BNW doesn't change the fact that it's very effective on the higher difficulties. I'm not saying you can't warmonger with Tradition, or that you can't get 4 cities up with Tradition, but most of the tradition proponents are suggesting starting with 2 or 3 cities, in the long run, if you don't get more, will counteract the advantage of tradition's extra growth, and likely cause you to struggle to keep up with the AI in the long run.

Yes, if you do get your cities up quickly, Tradition outperforms liberty in the science game, especially IMHO because of the free, instant and early aqueducts. (IE before teching engineering if you have good culture) And civ is all about science for CV, SV and Diplo. But only for the long haul. For the early science game, Liberty is actually better. The early academy you can place makes a big difference. And the stronger infrastructure, and (likely) better placed cities, plus more production early for units, makes Deity more survivable.

But, it's not "next turn, select building, next turn, select research" for the first 100 turns, which, no offense intended to anyone, is what most civ players are most comfortable with. Most civ players have been playing primarily peacefully forever, and since they're not experienced at warfare, they're intimidated by and unfamiliar with how aggressive play can benefit you in a game that ultimately doesn't end in a domination victory. Just my two cents, having been that guy. For a long time, I was only attempting Domination on lower difficulty levels because I just wasn't that good at it. I liked OCC because it was less to think about. I liked SV because you didn't have to juggle warfare, tech, and build priorities all at once. Then I got bored of it, and that's when I started appreciating the benefits of Liberty. Up until then I was exclusively a Tradition player. For years!

And yes, I'm completely influenced by Deity play. But here's the thing, Deity play is different, admittedly, but in many ways it's the true test of an efficient strategy. Inefficient play can still lead to victory on lower difficulties, but on Deity, it starts to fall apart. Which is why I think you see way more Liberty on Deity than on lower levels. You can "get away" with things on lower difficulties (things FYI that would never work against an aggressive human opponent) that allow you to maximize the benefit of tradition... like building workers and buildings instead of troops. As soon as you start to need to defend yourself, (which you should always need to in a properly balanced game) Liberty starts to look a lot more appealing.

Also, I totally agree, Liberty should get the faith GEs... doesn't make sense that Tradition gets them. The free aqueducts is of comparable benefit to the free GP in Liberty. The faith GEs are just the gravy that makes Tradition better in the late game, and for a growth-focused tree, GEs are the balancing factor. IE you've focused on growth so don't have great production... boom GE to save the day. With Liberty, you focus on production, and then there's no growth to save the day... :P
 
As soon as you start to need to defend yourself, (which you should always need to in a properly balanced game)

I really really agree with this. The current mode which is default - if your tech is strong you never have any threats - makes the game fundamentally broken. When you learn how to beeline for Education it's not a strategy game, it's Sim City (and on Deity the AI functions as your "funds" button, I have to laugh a bit at the idea that Deity affirms whether strats are efficient when it introduces so many free resources for the human player). The game needs some historically implausible dues ex machina to throttle tech speed, like barbarians popping up in borders if you're too far ahead. This is not satire; the game is toothless right now. This device could be turned in Advanced Settings off for the huge "I don't want challenges I want a sandbox" contingent. Anyway.

Bet I'm confused how you could say Liberty is better for science early due to the academy. It comes when a Tradition civ would already be near education even given a 4 city before NC start, and the Liberty civ has 10-20 turns to go. An academy at that point isn't enough to make up for getting universities later, usually. I mean as I keep saying I like Liberty but don't see it as a path to early tech lead.
 
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