Liberty Tree-Great Engineer?

[PRCouture]

In my usual games, i race up the Liberty Tree and attain the Great Engineer. He's amazing, i set him up on one of my tiles and i can spam nearly three wonders before i have to worry about expansion/units/buildagrades. I'm just curious, what is the community's outlook at this? I've been getting set in a Plains area when i start, and it's produced quite a bit of production without the engineer; i'm considering possibly getting another Great Person.

 

[grandad1982]

I like to us the GEng to Hurry a project like GLib if I'm in time. I waited till much later than normal the other day and used him to build the Porcelain Tower.

Not really sure about settling as I do i so rarely. If you aren't going for the GEng then a GSci is what you probably want.

 

[vexing]

an early manufactory is really powerful, especially on lower difficulties.
rushing a wonder like great library is also an alternative.

 

[kamex]

an early manufactory is really powerful, especially on lower difficulties.
rushing a wonder like great library is also an alternative.

Agreed, On immortal or above, an instant GL and medieval tech slingshot is very useful. I haven't yet tried the improvement. May be great as Egypt, or as a civ starting near marble.

The problem is that the free GE is in a different tree to Aristocracy, the typical wonder building SP.

 

[slobberinbear]

The Great Merchant improvement is nothing to sneeze at either. More gold is always good. I know rushing stuff (tech, wonder) is more fun, but the improvements have their uses.

 

[grandad1982]

If settling still took place in cities rather than on tiles....

Maybe one game I'll try settling lots more GP and see how to get the best from them. Settling GMerc all game long is probably ok if you have no other immediate use for them such as a GA or or a CS mission. Esspecially near your cap with Commerce.

 

[Martin Alvito]

The problem is that the free GE is in a different tree to Aristocracy, the typical wonder building SP.

A 20% bonus is pretty terrible for the first 75 turns. Once you've improved terrain and built some production buildings, the bonus is a lot more efficient than the Manufactory.

Which one you want depends on when you need the help, and you also need to consider the impact of a guaranteed Wonder now against more total from the Manufactory (which can be used on non-Wonder builds).

 

[Mr Jack]

I tend to prefer the Great Scientist Academy building approach. Especially if you've gone down the NC start route you can a big science boost from it. The only exception is if I'm going for a culture victory and want to rush Stonehenge.

 

[neilkaz]

I tend to prefer the Great Scientist Academy building approach. Especially if you've gone down the NC start route you can a big science boost from it. The only exception is if I'm going for a culture victory and want to rush Stonehenge.

Depending on level, I usually play Immortal Small Pangaea, and GL is still often available, I like the GE route to get GL for the free tech and the GS point.

This really helps Babylon since that GS point is effectively doubled. However, you have to take the tech right away and can't save the GS, but since I want to rush towards jumping an era and there's usually an expensive (for early game) tech available.

Yesterday, I screwed up as Babz and added my cultural ally a couple turns too soon and had to take Meritocracy rather than Rationalism, but no tragedy since I got Pocelin tower for the free tech and 2 (doubled to 4 for Babz) GS points.

 

[Tabarnak]

an early manufactory is really powerful, especially on lower difficulties.

Interesting...i tought it was the opposite.

 

[neilkaz]

Interesting...i tought it was the opposite.

I'd think that on lower difficulties, the early manufactory helps wonder spamming and unlike at Immortal or worse yet, Deity, you usually won't be beaten to what ever wonder you desire and you can afford to tie up the capital building wonders.

 

[kell_the_kyuss]

library, national college, academy.

observatory if Im lucky and start near a mountain.

 

[chazzycat]

I've had success (emperor level) using the free person for a variety of things, but it always tends to be scientist or engineer.

- scientist + bulb. My last game got steel around 800 BC. This is great if you're the only one on your continent and want to clear it off nice & early. Other techs could be useful as well, but getting Steel this early will definitely provide a huge boost to your military.

- scientist + academy. If you are settled in for a long science game this will help, especially if you went NC first strategy. A big, high-food capital with the NC and an early academy will enable you to BLOW through the early techs.

- Engineer + Wonder that produces more engineers. An early wonder that gives an engineer point (like Pyramids) is pretty cool, assuming you get good value from the wonder. I find that the engineer point tends to net you an extra engineer right around the middle ages, when there are all sorts of cool wonders to build.

- Engineer + manufactory. +4 production the entire game is nothing to sneeze at, and is especially big early on when you need it. Build it on a grassland to make sure it always gets worked. It makes sense if you don't need a specific wonder, or just want to churn out units for a rush. Last time I used this was on emperor level and it was instrumental in setting me up for long-term victory.

I'm not really sure an artist would ever be a good choice...there just aren't enough culture multipliers available that early to make a landmark worth it, and culture bombing is also pretty weak that early.

There could be some situations where a merchant would be useful, if you REALLY need a city-state ally that quickly. Doing the trade mission then giving that city state the 500 gold will get you a long-lasting ally, and there are probably some good strategies revolving around this. But, IMO, for the most part the opportunity cost of scientists/engineers seems too high to pass up.

 

[Martin Alvito]

I'm not really sure an artist would ever be a good choice...there just aren't enough culture multipliers available that early to make a landmark worth it, and culture bombing is also pretty weak that early.

If you're picking an Artist, you're playing a Cultural game, you started in Tradition/Patronage, and you're filling Liberty late.

Ihere could be some situations where a merchant would be useful, if you REALLY need a city-state ally that quickly.

At best the influence plus cash is 750, and that just doesn't hold a candle to what a Great Engineer can do for you.

 

[joncnunn]

In my own game, I don't race thru the Liberty Tree (I'm basically splitting Tradition & Liberty). I try to time that policy to right after a city state ally has requested a specific great person and then choose whichever person that was requested.

Also note that the wonders available then are more expensive than those available as fast as is possible to get this policy. (Yes, can be saved, but I think great people cost the same amount of maintenance per turn as other units)

In my usual games, i race up the Liberty Tree and attain the Great Engineer. He's amazing, i set him up on one of my tiles and i can spam nearly three wonders before i have to worry about expansion/units/buildagrades. I'm just curious, what is the community's outlook at this? I've been getting set in a Plains area when i start, and it's produced quite a bit of production without the engineer; i'm considering possibly getting another Great Person.

 

[vexing]

Interesting...i tought it was the opposite.

well, it's powerful in any game, it's just relatively more powerful at lower difficulties where you're rarely losing out on wonder races, so you can build great library, stonehenge and oracle. over the course of the game the +4 hammers adds up to more than the 120ish? hammers one of those costs

i did the early manufactory for the gminor 1 game, and imagine i'll do the same for gminor2.

 

[slobberinbear]

well, it's powerful in any game, it's just relatively more powerful at lower difficulties where you're rarely losing out on wonder races, so you can build great library, stonehenge and oracle. over the course of the game the +4 hammers adds up to more than the 120ish? hammers one of those costs

i did the early manufactory for the gminor 1 game, and imagine i'll do the same for gminor2.

Not to mention the benefit of a 2 F / 4 H / 1 C riverside manufactory for a settler-and-worker spamming REX capital ...

 

[Martin Alvito]

Not to mention the benefit of a 2 F / 4 H / 1 C riverside manufactory for a settler-and-worker spamming REX capital ...

If you really want that, Collective Rule is superior on any speed except quick. A free Settler, plus an equivalent boost during the REX phase, plus a saved SP is going to trump the Manufactory. On quick, you take Landed Elite over a Manufactory hands down unless you're going with an OCC.

(The reason vexing is taking Meritocracy in G-Minor II is because he can't take Landed Elite, since he wants to exploit the Legalism trick. I think that giving away LE is going to hurt more than the Legalism trick helps, but we shall see.)

The value of a Manufactory diminishes pretty rapidly as the game wears on, because it confers less advantage as other tiles start to generate large amounts of . Placed on Grassland, it's merely a +2 boost for the capital once you hit Chemistry in most starts. That's not worth a SP choice, so you'd better get maximum mileage out of it early to justify the pick.

On lower levels where it assists with building infrastructure and all the early Wonders, the Manufactory is better than a GE.

 

[chazzycat]

Martin, thanks for all your input as usual. I stand corrected, an artist could indeed be worth it if you are back-filling liberty late in a culture game. As for merchants, I do think it's possible to be a solid choice, although unlikely to be the "best". If you really want culture fast and stonehenge is already built, an engineer is not going to get that done.

 

[spider1]

I play mostly on the King or Emperor level, depending on what I want out of the game. I find, playing Babylon, my best start is getting the GS with discovering writing, build an acadamy, and using meritocracy to get a GE and build a manufactory on a hill. This speeds up both production and science in the early game. However, as others have mentioned, the effect wears off quickly enough. But it makes for a very good head start in the early part of the game which I've found, more often than not, to be more helpful.

If not playing Babylon, I do different things with the GP, but generally I'll lay the GP down in their building to get an early boost in whatever direction I need to go in.

Now playing at immortal or diety, that may not work so well, but I generally don't play at those levels. I've won at those levels, but it was painful. Well, not diety. There are easy ways to manipulate the game start settings to get an easy win at diety. But I actually won a immortal game fair and square once.