Lionised and Vilified

[nocho]

Well, since Cam is so prone to culture and space, I think it's fitting to have something more aggressive in mind. Also, we're the Prussians after all! I think I actually never saw an actual Panzer after 5 (or is it 6 already?) years of playing Civ4, so I propose to go that way. On the vein of the privateer-variant last game, as a little extra side requirement to this one I'd say we should get to at least 10 level 6 panzers.

With something more aggressive the Defensive Pact requirement might also make more sense and the 20k culture won't be totally moot as it would be in case of shooting for culture. Just my 2 cents though.

If we go this way I'd probably save the GE for mining inc, which is kind of a befitting corp as well with the Germans.

 

[Sengir]

I have a strong preference for bashing some heads as well

 

[vranasm]

I always go with some breaking of skulls... and even more so if we are required to Lib Military tradition ;-)

 

[lymond]

I prefer spreading our culture via merciless aggression

 

[cabert]

a good cuirassiers stack can give us domination. I vote for this.

 

[Cam_H]

But I don't want huge tracts of open land ... I want to sing!

 

[lymond]

I'll just re-state that I think we should rush Globe in Fishy and build Sistine there with some well timed whip. Hold on to music a bit longer until Sistine is in. We will still get some good trades for it.

With Globe in Fishy - since it does not have NE like it really should have - it becomes essentially a second major unit pumper. We can whip it all day long. We can whip it -whip it REAL good! Ok...Cam has me singing.

 

[pigswill]

Still not getting anywhere are we?

Could we at least agree that we're going to bulb philosophy with GS and run GA with GA to try to rush a couple of GS. We can put GE on hold until after GA is finished.

Trade CS and Drama, keep music in reserve.

We can keep arguing after the GA is done.

 

[nocho]

Sounds good to me. It's about time we get another set played, so please go ahead. Since it's your set, you can decide wheter to Sistine or not to Sistine. I'm frankly not bothered with it either way, though I wouldn't waste the GE over it.

 

[lymond]

I think we should come to some consensus here. I'm strong on using GE on Globe since it has no bonus and Fish would be a great unit pump with it. We have bonuses on other wonders. I really think we should go for Sistine. I don't see any reason why not. We can build it easily in Fishy and have a monopoly on the wonder tech. Regardless of going culture or not, it is one one of the best denial wonders next to AP. I think it is ridiculous not to build Sistine in this situation and advantage.

We should not lose sight that Globe is more than just for Drafting -whether we draft or not. We can whip this very high food like crazy for units or whatever. If we don't just wait until we actually need it and then have to slow build it. You will wish we used the GE on it then.

We are going to get to Nat first and build Taj easily with marble and then blow these guys away.

Definitely GS Philo, I think we already have consensus on that. GA sounds good now to get more GSs and it will boost production all around for these things we want to build....like Sistine.

 

[vranasm]

I think we formed consensus on bulbing Philo and start GA with GA.

I think lymond you're too picky with the whole GE situation. I am willing for some compromise here...
No one obviously wants to burn GE for 300 hammers (globe and sistine both have this cost).
I am strongly against burning GE for TM (another ~300 hammers burn)...

We could stock him and use him on Mining Inc later...

the only problem with fish city is right now that there is only 3 hammers overall to build anything.
We could maybe wait for the border pop due in 1-2 turns? Pigs could report how the borders moved and if in our favor we could hold back on GE.

 

[Cam_H]

(Removed)

 

[vranasm]

(Removed)

no need to remove that... I already read that.

It's true you want the sistine, but I think the consensus about GA and Philo bulb was met (as I re-read your input in the page before).

So I think pigs is right that it seems like almost we want to run the GA with caste+pac.

What we are looking for is consensus about the GE.

Your argument (as i got it) is that Sistine is always helpful in your culture games. As i got this game part of the team wants to see some blood and we don't seem to run state religion (we even can't after Free religion).

So as I understand it the Sistine then will give only 2c per worked specialist, that's a big difference compared to 5c for state religion building (ideally templ+monastery+stupa = 15c) and retaining the specialists culture.

I have to say i fail to see in what way the Sistine will help us reach our targets in this game and I think we could meet the 20k mark without help of Sistine (especially considering we need to have it in only 1 city - which will probably be capital).

I can see the help from GT in our game, but not game breaking too.

So to me the 300 hammers which we can get from GE is not optimal, considering we could need later in the game GE for finding Mining Inc.

And I appologize for the general remark which threw all people in the team in the same bag regarding our consensus.

 

[Sengir]

I agree with vranasm that Bulbing Philo & GA for GA has at least the majority vote.

I also agree that burning the GE for 300h whilst we're going to need one in the endgame is not the best idea, and I'd rather save him.

About the Sistine: I couldn't care less, I'm not much of a wonder builder. GT is more useful IMHO as we can use it to whip a lot of units

 

[Cam_H]

My comment was flippant, which is why I removed it.

From here, I don't think that there's much in the way of 'black or white' ... cabert's suggested bulbing Machinery, vranasm likes the idea of holding onto the Great Engineer for Mining Inc., lymond likes a hurry on the Globe in Frankfurt, and I can see a case (if anyone wanted to put it) of merging the Great Engineer into the city that we'll build Oxford University.

If it gets to voting and all, in light of the rejection of the Cultural victory proposition, I'd go with a hurry on Globe in Frankfurt ('Whip Central'), and slow-build Sistine in Dortmund (a fair option that won't contaminate Berlin's pool). Again, in light of the rejection of the Cultural victory proposition, a Golden Age with the Great Artist is now OK, and 'yes' to bulbing Philosophy with the Great Scientist in-part to deter the AI from pursuing Liberalism and in part to churn out those other s as proposed with Caste + Pacifism.

 

[vranasm]

yeah I didn't want to disregard the cabert's suggestion about bulbing Machinery.

I think at this point of the game we probably can trade for it better with some monopoly tech... i actually like to give away Philo/CS for Feud/machinery/guilds, they all are similar value so we should get our hands on it "easily".

The GE machinery bulb is for me more early game technique, but don't want to throw it away... it's one of possible use.

I would like to hear more what we expect from getting machinery then. I am mounted warfare oriented, so to me machinery opens windmills (which are very good in hammer economies) and some deeper tech paths.
Is there something I overlook?

 

[cabert]

I was thinking about capping cathy before cuirassiers, with foot troops.
Obviously, I'm alone in this thought process.

 

[pigswill]

Had another look at the save. Trade wise we could go for: CS to Cat for HbR+70, CS+Drama to Sul for feud+40. Vic doesn't have HbR so we may be able to trade HbR+drama to Vic for MC next turn (not guaranteed).

In terms of religion we need to be in Judaism for GA. Maria T is the only Buddhist and she's fighting Nap at the moment. Cat is Hindu so she won't like us regardless.

In terms of gppt Munich can't generate a GS in 8 turns and will lose pop trying. Frankfurt can run 7 scientists while starving (though not losing pop) and can generate 100%GS. Berlin with NE can easily generate a GP ( 70-80%GS,10-15%GA, 10-15%GE) even after end of Golden Age.

 

[vranasm]

I am fine if you starve cities to generate 3rd Great person... this thing I saw doing Kossin in some of his games so I think it's fine, but others may see it otherwise .

We should not forget that we trade 1 great person for other persons. If we get 1 back, we just switched the type, if we get 2 we get 1 surplus etc.

It's not crucial (since I regularly get max 2 back, 3 are for me rare), but if we have stocked enough food (/pop) to get 3 I am fine with little starving...

 

[lymond]

Yeah, I'm all for starving. One thing to try, is max out the starving at first. Monitor it, and when it is 1 turn from losing pop, hit the govnah button to resort the citizens on tiles. Then select scientists until the city is at a point of starving again, but with more turns to do so - maybe even 2 turns. What you may find is that you still get the GP in the same amount of turns without losing a pop. However, losing a pop is not that big a deal either, but the above is usually what I do. Rinse/repeat until the GP pops.

So if I'm reading things correctly:

rush Globe - 2 votes
Save GE - 1 vote
bulb Machinery - 1 vote

so we need more votes. Nocho seems 'Switzerland' on the matter but may have a preference

I forgot about running Caste/Pac in the GA, which is a definite, so this puts Sistine at more of a risk in Fishy since we can't whip for some time. Building in another city with more hammers and chops is fine then. Maybe Dortmund. I'd prefer it in Fishy for the synergy, but oh well.

V - I assume those trades you are referring to are post-Lib

Sistine is a good wonder regardless of if you are going culture or not. It's a top denial wonder. The cpt or religion bonus is not even a concern of mine, but the extra culture will not hurt either, especially when we take over cities.

edit: My thoughts on Machinery. I'm of like mind with V here. We can easily trade for it. Otherwise, it would be more of a "get Machinery early to set up some early war effort. We're kinda of past that and have no immediate war plans really other than possible defending ourselves from Cathy. We do have Phants though or at least will quite soon.

As for holding the GE to Mining Inc., that seems like an awful long to to hold onto a GP. We do have mids in Berlin so the possibility of producing another one later is not a longshot.

edit 5000: Cam's suggestion of settling the GE is not bad either. However, I have no clue where we are going to put Ox. We are not really setup for it. Hamburg might be a possibility if we cottage it up but we are a long way from that. Berlin is really bad for it IMO. Fishy might have been a NE/OX city but that ship has flown.