Haven't seen the save yet but sounds good. We definitely need to think mainly of expansion now.
I'd go for a farm in Berlin. I'm not against a very occasional whip here, but agree it's not great for much whipping in general.
Lionised and Vilified
- Thread starter Cam_H
- Start date
I'd go for a farm in Berlin. I'm not against a very occasional whip here, but agree it's not great for much whipping in general.
Seeing that I caused 'mass confusion' in another SG recently by 'apparently' offering contradictory advice...
If I can count, we should farm four more tiles in Berlin if we want its full BFC to be food-neutral pre-Biology, so I'm tending to agree that we should have somewhere else to be our cottaged commerce hub, and to me; Munich and/or Corn-Sheep-Fur-Fur could do the job. We'll get a lot of 
drive out of our Fish-Fish-Sugar 
-Farm if we throw out Slavery for Caste.
Personally I'd settle the Corn-Sheep-Fur-Fur site after Fish-Fish-Sugar in preference to Horse-Cow in that it will be quicker to get 'up and running', brings us new resources, and if working the Fur Camps will be self-supporting. I think the south west Gold should be paired with the Grassland Sheep after removing annoying Barb' city on hills.
The plan looks good to me, and I trust you guys on your whip decisions. Best of luck.
Spoiler :
drive out of our Fish-Fish-Sugar -Farm if we throw out Slavery for Caste.Personally I'd settle the Corn-Sheep-Fur-Fur site after Fish-Fish-Sugar in preference to Horse-Cow in that it will be quicker to get 'up and running', brings us new resources, and if working the Fur Camps will be self-supporting. I think the south west Gold should be paired with the Grassland Sheep after removing annoying Barb' city on hills.
The plan looks good to me, and I trust you guys on your whip decisions. Best of luck.
vranasm
Deity
well guilty... but I am changing my mind in games all the time... you should look for the Willem game I make in S&T.
Pigs was right with "hindsight", but still at least I stayed consistent about the northern settler.
I wasn't sure where to put the 1 library we need... so initially I just placed it in hammer city, but obviously capital is much better place for library.
I think I didn't suggest to build 2 libraries though! For that we certainly don't have hammers.
I think I concerned about mids being in the works over 15 turns so build the library in other city to get rep scientists asap.
The decision pigs made (mids+lib in capital) is better. But then I argue the stone city library ;-).
Pigs was right with "hindsight", but still at least I stayed consistent about the northern settler.
I wasn't sure where to put the 1 library we need... so initially I just placed it in hammer city, but obviously capital is much better place for library.
I think I didn't suggest to build 2 libraries though! For that we certainly don't have hammers.
I think I concerned about mids being in the works over 15 turns so build the library in other city to get rep scientists asap.
The decision pigs made (mids+lib in capital) is better. But then I argue the stone city library ;-).
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 26,892
Okay, TS play:
Things went pretty much as planned:
1) First the archers: I basically played tag with the archers. They would not attack the chariots outright but kept moving around in our borders and start to head towards Munich. One finally moved onto open ground and I picked him off. Hilariously, the other archer apparently got scared and ran back to the barb city below. I chased him but another barb archer popped from the south so I had to ward him off. The chariot in the south spawnbusting died to this archer at decent odds on open ground.
2) Library finish in Berlin and ran 2 scientists which quickly gave us a GS for an academy in Berlin. We are 7 turns from another GS. I build another worker in Berlin
3) Whipped settler in Hamburg and finished a monument. Of course, Judaism spreads there in a turn or 2, but we do need the extra culture. Built worker here as well.
3) Settler from Hamburg found Cologne at Wheat/Gold. (Iron popped nearby which is good). We should overtake the wheat soon after the monument is built. I chopped the forest first before settling - the hammers went into a settler in Munich.
4) Munich finished a settler and started another one. Settler is parked over by Sugar/Fish. A barb city spawn nearby before though (Thracian). It is a terrible city which we should try to raze asap before the AIs take it. There is only a Russian archer next to the city. We should get some Chariots over there asap. It would be nice to settle a better city nearby though.
5) I though HRE would complete a road to the wheat next to Cologne to open a trade route but the stupid AI did not, so we should look to do that with the worker that just finished the gold next turn. Cologne should be a decent production city which we need badly. Berlin is the only other decent one we have at present and it is running scientists. We need iron and to start building more units before some of these nasty AIs get any ideas.
6) Traded Aesths to Vicky for Alpha and then Alpha with Cathy - I think - for iron. I started Currency which I think is always very important, but we may want to get Poly for Lit. I was waiting to see if we could get a good trade for Poly, like Alpha for Poly/Sailing or something. Never works out the way you want it too.
7) I guess we could go ahead and settle Sugar Fish, but I was waiting for the road. However, that will take some time and we may want to get things up and running there so we can run specialists asap. I also would like to get more units over there since there is a lot of fog and land it appears.
8) I also think we should try our best to grab that barb city just east of Cologne. Berlin can focus on units at present.
Military Advisor:
Note Nappy's status here. He's going to attack someone soon. I have no clue where he is. This BUG screen has often confused me a little, because I'm not sure whether the severity applies solely to the human. It seems strange that he would want to attack us this early from so far way, but it does happen.
Techs:
Things went pretty much as planned:
1) First the archers: I basically played tag with the archers. They would not attack the chariots outright but kept moving around in our borders and start to head towards Munich. One finally moved onto open ground and I picked him off. Hilariously, the other archer apparently got scared and ran back to the barb city below. I chased him but another barb archer popped from the south so I had to ward him off. The chariot in the south spawnbusting died to this archer at decent odds on open ground.
2) Library finish in Berlin and ran 2 scientists which quickly gave us a GS for an academy in Berlin. We are 7 turns from another GS. I build another worker in Berlin
3) Whipped settler in Hamburg and finished a monument. Of course, Judaism spreads there in a turn or 2, but we do need the extra culture. Built worker here as well.
3) Settler from Hamburg found Cologne at Wheat/Gold. (Iron popped nearby which is good). We should overtake the wheat soon after the monument is built. I chopped the forest first before settling - the hammers went into a settler in Munich.
4) Munich finished a settler and started another one. Settler is parked over by Sugar/Fish. A barb city spawn nearby before though (Thracian). It is a terrible city which we should try to raze asap before the AIs take it. There is only a Russian archer next to the city. We should get some Chariots over there asap. It would be nice to settle a better city nearby though.
5) I though HRE would complete a road to the wheat next to Cologne to open a trade route but the stupid AI did not, so we should look to do that with the worker that just finished the gold next turn. Cologne should be a decent production city which we need badly. Berlin is the only other decent one we have at present and it is running scientists. We need iron and to start building more units before some of these nasty AIs get any ideas.
6) Traded Aesths to Vicky for Alpha and then Alpha with Cathy - I think - for iron. I started Currency which I think is always very important, but we may want to get Poly for Lit. I was waiting to see if we could get a good trade for Poly, like Alpha for Poly/Sailing or something. Never works out the way you want it too.
7) I guess we could go ahead and settle Sugar Fish, but I was waiting for the road. However, that will take some time and we may want to get things up and running there so we can run specialists asap. I also would like to get more units over there since there is a lot of fog and land it appears.
8) I also think we should try our best to grab that barb city just east of Cologne. Berlin can focus on units at present.
Military Advisor:
Note Nappy's status here. He's going to attack someone soon. I have no clue where he is. This BUG screen has often confused me a little, because I'm not sure whether the severity applies solely to the human. It seems strange that he would want to attack us this early from so far way, but it does happen.
Spoiler :
Techs:
Spoiler :
woopdeedoo
King
lurker's comment:
hahahahah!!!
hahahahah!!!
vranasm
Deity
I checked the save, seems very good...
Is anyone here sold on cottages? because I think we should just avoid them this game... concentrate on GPP's and hammers
There should be pretty soon some wars in AI land.
One thing I wasn't aware of is that Drama opens Philo bulb. I talk about this because Drama opens Music too...
what about something onorthodox and going with Drama->Music->Philo bulb and trading for currency later?
The land is somewhat compact so no strong argument for CoL (we settle cities in somewhat circular around capital)
edit:
about the gold to the west...what about 1S of gold? gets 2 grassland on lake even if it is a bit lame location... city 8?
city 6 corn south lake, city 7 east cow+horse.
Is anyone here sold on cottages? because I think we should just avoid them this game... concentrate on GPP's and hammers
There should be pretty soon some wars in AI land.
One thing I wasn't aware of is that Drama opens Philo bulb. I talk about this because Drama opens Music too...
what about something onorthodox and going with Drama->Music->Philo bulb and trading for currency later?
The land is somewhat compact so no strong argument for CoL (we settle cities in somewhat circular around capital)
edit:
about the gold to the west...what about 1S of gold? gets 2 grassland on lake even if it is a bit lame location... city 8?
city 6 corn south lake, city 7 east cow+horse.
Thanks lymond for the turnset, and vranasm for your feedback (I too think that we can think about running a game 'focused on specialists' {seeing that it seems politically incorrect to refer to a "specialist economy" these days for reasons that I'm still not quite clear on}).
I am fairly busy across the next couple of days, but will aim to stick up a PPP at the earliest reasonable opportunity. In the meantime, anyone's welcome to pitch in thoughts.
I am fairly busy across the next couple of days, but will aim to stick up a PPP at the earliest reasonable opportunity. In the meantime, anyone's welcome to pitch in thoughts.
vranasm
Deity
I don't want to get into any kind of flamey wars... I will try to just explain why I used the words that I used...
When I first started (like 1 year ago) study the CIV gameplay and this forum, I of course immediately went into the CE x SE wars.
One thing about these concepts stands out is, that they are too rigorous... If you want prove...just look for threads like "Specialist Economy for beginners" etc.
They DEFINE what you have to DO if you want to RUN the economy (caps for emphasis).
That's absolutely not the way I operate with the land I get in civ world.
I settle my cities around resources and then try to sneak in every knowledge I have into them.
So I always operate in hybrid economy no matter what. You will see in my gameplay everytime elements of:
Wonder economy, Trade route economy, Specialist economy and Cottage economy.
And of course the biggest one is Tech trade economy
.So if the land here tells me that settled cities have food and hammers, I know I will farm/mine, tech towards currency and use Wealth in time of need.
Prepare army and get some cottage land from enemies (which should be hopefully already grown).
pigswill
fly (one day)
Its also worth considering settling down south, an ice city west of deer gets 5 resources with one border pop: iron, marble, fur, sheep, deer.
I'd reckon that the first rule of civ is 'play the map', you're likely to get better results by fitting the model to the map than by trying to fit the map to the model.
vranasm: I see what you mean about changing your mind all the time
. One minute you're saying go drama>music (philo bulb) and a few posts later you're extolling currency to build wealth to support your early empire 
.
I'd reckon that the first rule of civ is 'play the map', you're likely to get better results by fitting the model to the map than by trying to fit the map to the model.
vranasm: I see what you mean about changing your mind all the time
. One minute you're saying go drama>music (philo bulb) and a few posts later you're extolling currency to build wealth to support your early empire .vranasm
Deity
@pigs
you're right. I just wanted to throw out some new thought that I happened over somewhere else...
I think due to the variant we really want to bulb Philo... if we go convential we need CoL and for that going currency before is longer way. Then Drama now (we already have Aesth) which opens the Philo bulb immediately.
Music brings free Golden Age.
It's just bunch of ideas for Cam so he can choose :-D.
About the currency... 5 AI's can tech it. Some of them will surely do. I would put my bet on Vicky and probably Cathy.
Didn't check the religion screen yesterday, but I would guess that Nappy has already CoL?
We would kind of mimic someone else tech path, which brings diminishing returns.
you're right. I just wanted to throw out some new thought that I happened over somewhere else...
I think due to the variant we really want to bulb Philo... if we go convential we need CoL and for that going currency before is longer way. Then Drama now (we already have Aesth) which opens the Philo bulb immediately.
Music brings free Golden Age.
It's just bunch of ideas for Cam so he can choose :-D.
About the currency... 5 AI's can tech it. Some of them will surely do. I would put my bet on Vicky and probably Cathy.
Didn't check the religion screen yesterday, but I would guess that Nappy has already CoL?
We would kind of mimic someone else tech path, which brings diminishing returns.
PPP (of sorts):
I am not 100% sure what to do with possible Great Scientist out of Berlin (keep for Philosophy bulb? Munich Academy? Merge into Berlin?). A Great Engineer to be banked for The Great Library (I'm aware not everyone's a fan of burning a Great Engineer on this WoW, but south Marble seems a long way away). Anyway - please chime in thoughts.
Found Fish-Fish-Sugar: Work Boat > Library
Agree we need a road to our neighbours to get international
happening. A road to Ottoman Bursa seems to work. Among other things, Mine on Munich's Gold and hook up Berlin's Cows are other Worker actions.
Keep an eye open on 'Maths <> Alphabet' trade possibility.
Code of Laws has not been discovered (Confucianism hasn't been founded).
Berlin: Chariots
Hamburg: Grow to 3 > Settler
Munich: Settler > Grow to 4 or 5 depending on Gold Mine > Settler
Cologne: Monument > Worker
Tech: Very flexible on this ... Victoria can already research Literature, so I'm uninclined to leave Polytheism any longer, and if we want this WoW we should 'get cracking'. I assume we have no interest in other WoWs (e.g. Parthenon, ToA, Zeus for fail
) while we still have so much settling to do.
Found Fish-Fish-Sugar: Work Boat > Library
Agree we need a road to our neighbours to get international
happening. A road to Ottoman Bursa seems to work. Among other things, Mine on Munich's Gold and hook up Berlin's Cows are other Worker actions.Keep an eye open on 'Maths <> Alphabet' trade possibility.
Code of Laws has not been discovered (Confucianism hasn't been founded).
Berlin: Chariots
Hamburg: Grow to 3 > Settler
Munich: Settler > Grow to 4 or 5 depending on Gold Mine > Settler
Cologne: Monument > Worker
Tech: Very flexible on this ... Victoria can already research Literature, so I'm uninclined to leave Polytheism any longer, and if we want this WoW we should 'get cracking'. I assume we have no interest in other WoWs (e.g. Parthenon, ToA, Zeus for fail
) while we still have so much settling to do.
I'd keep the GS for bulbing. I like the drama-path, as that we don't double up on techs (as mentioned before by vranasm)
Other then that I'd keep crashing our economy by settling like hell. Libraries near the borders might be necessary to avoid tile-stealing by our neighbours/do some tile-stealing ourselves.
Other then that I'd keep crashing our economy by settling like hell. Libraries near the borders might be necessary to avoid tile-stealing by our neighbours/do some tile-stealing ourselves.
Thanks for the feedback.
2.5 turns in, and got a question ...
The Barbarian city of Yayoi was taken by the Vikings (we could not have taken it with our one unit in one turn as it had two defenders), but it's a nice spot. The Vikings are (a.) unpopular, and (b.) way over in the west and we're not touching borders.
At 63.7% odds, we can declare war and take the city for ourselves.
Worth it?
2.5 turns in, and got a question ...
The Barbarian city of Yayoi was taken by the Vikings (we could not have taken it with our one unit in one turn as it had two defenders), but it's a nice spot. The Vikings are (a.) unpopular, and (b.) way over in the west and we're not touching borders.
At 63.7% odds, we can declare war and take the city for ourselves.
Worth it?
Sorry for not having contributed much lately.
I think the city is worth it to have, but that in can wait. For precisely the reasons you give, we can also take it later. Saves us the maintenance meanwhile, Rag may improve it a bit and with some more units we'd be sure to get it. My 2 cents.
I think the city is worth it to have, but that in can wait. For precisely the reasons you give, we can also take it later. Saves us the maintenance meanwhile, Rag may improve it a bit and with some more units we'd be sure to get it. My 2 cents.
vranasm
Deity
I would wait.
We have only skeleton army and that's something we surely will want to fix after settling.
There are 2 other barb cities to take.
This place even if stellar is exposed.
There is Nappy x Gustav war in the air.
Actually I start to be a bit worried about our situation. (not your fault Cam, general feeling)
Would be nice to milk diplo somehow, taking religion would be great step, but with the map being as it is... well don't see easy choice...
We have only skeleton army and that's something we surely will want to fix after settling.
There are 2 other barb cities to take.
This place even if stellar is exposed.
There is Nappy x Gustav war in the air.
Actually I start to be a bit worried about our situation
. (not your fault Cam, general feeling)Would be nice to milk diplo somehow, taking religion would be great step, but with the map being as it is... well don't see easy choice...
pigswill
fly (one day)
There are plenty of other sites waiting to be settled to the south. War v Gustav would be a distraction.
Opening | Turn 93 | 550BC
Research > Drama
Up to 70%
Turn 1 | Turn 94 | 525BC
Found Frankfurt at Fish site
Frankfurt: Work Boat
Berlin: Chariot > Chariot
Down to 50%
The Ottomans have a big Archer stack outside the Barbarian city of Yayoi. Unfortunately with just the one Chariot, and two barbarian defenders, we can't take the city, and can only hope that the Barb's can hold it 'just' for one more turn where we can take on the 'hypothetic' last injured defender.
Turn 2 | Turn 95 | 500BC
Gustav of the Vikings takes Yayoi in between turns. Consider taking it ourselves, but the roster thinks not.
Maria Theresa of the Holy Romans demands Aesthetics. The demand is seriously looked at, but on balance we opt for "no".
Cologne: Monument > Worker
Turn 3 | Turn 96 | 475BC
Gustav of the Vikings demands that we cancel deals with France. Again, assess 'pros and cons' and opt for "no".
French borders finally spotted to the north east.
Turn 4 | Turn 97 | 450BC
Hook up the Berlin Cows as our first
.
Munich: Settler > Library (emphasise
).
Science down to 30%.
Turn 5 | Turn 98 | 425BC
Surprisingly, Napoleon declares war on his fellow Buddhist; Maria Theresa of the Holy Romans, who in turn bribes Suleiman to attack Napoleon.
The Bursa road is completed and we now have happening with Ottoman cities.
We cancel Open Borders with France with the view of at least not attracting the ire of either of our neighbours; the HRE or the Ottomans.
Turn 6 | Turn 99 | 400BC
Between turns: Napoleon demands Aesthetics, and like we did to Maria Theresa, we say "no".
Found Essen at the southern Corn-Fur-Fur-Sheep site.
Note that we've been spreading our
evenly, and opt to direct it all on Maria Theresa.
Hamburg: (Growth) Granary interrupt > Settler
Munich: (Growth) Library interrupt > Settler
Science back up to 40%
Turn 7 | Turn 100 | 375BC
Between turns: Maria Theresa founds Confucianism.
Berlin pops a New Zealander of all things!!! Ernest Rutherford (Great Scientist), who has a nap with the view to at some point bulbing Philosophy (maybe).
Cologne's Monument is efficient enough to wrestle the Wheat resource off the HRE, and the citizen moves off the Gold Mine to work this new Wheat.
Cologne: Worker interrupt > Archer
Berlin: Chariot interrupt > Barracks resume
Turn 8 | Turn 101 | 350BC
Between turns: Napoleon demands that we cancel deals with the Ottomans, and again we send him away empty handed ... but he's now Annoyed.
Turn 9 | Turn 102 | 325BC
Note that Victoria's now capable of researching Divine Right.
Maria Theresa: Gold <> Wine
Turn 10 | Turn 103 | 300BC
Drama researched. Currency place-holder only. Research down to 0% for hand-over.
End the turnset noting that Munich's Settler is whippable.
Just about to finish building a road within the HRE to get another source of going.
Roster:
nocho <<< On Deck
Sengir
vranasm
pigswill
lymond
Cam
cabert <<< Up
Research > Drama
Up to 70%
Turn 1 | Turn 94 | 525BC
Found Frankfurt at Fish site
Frankfurt: Work Boat
Berlin: Chariot > Chariot
Down to 50%
The Ottomans have a big Archer stack outside the Barbarian city of Yayoi. Unfortunately with just the one Chariot, and two barbarian defenders, we can't take the city, and can only hope that the Barb's can hold it 'just' for one more turn where we can take on the 'hypothetic' last injured defender.
Turn 2 | Turn 95 | 500BC
Gustav of the Vikings takes Yayoi in between turns. Consider taking it ourselves, but the roster thinks not.
Maria Theresa of the Holy Romans demands Aesthetics. The demand is seriously looked at, but on balance we opt for "no".
Cologne: Monument > Worker
Turn 3 | Turn 96 | 475BC
Gustav of the Vikings demands that we cancel deals with France. Again, assess 'pros and cons' and opt for "no".
French borders finally spotted to the north east.
Turn 4 | Turn 97 | 450BC
Hook up the Berlin Cows as our first
.Munich: Settler > Library (emphasise
).Science down to 30%
.Turn 5 | Turn 98 | 425BC
Surprisingly, Napoleon declares war on his fellow Buddhist; Maria Theresa of the Holy Romans, who in turn bribes Suleiman to attack Napoleon.
The Bursa road is completed and we now have
happening with Ottoman cities.We cancel Open Borders with France with the view of at least not attracting the ire of either of our neighbours; the HRE or the Ottomans.
Turn 6 | Turn 99 | 400BC
Between turns: Napoleon demands Aesthetics, and like we did to Maria Theresa, we say "no".
Found Essen at the southern Corn-Fur-Fur-Sheep site.
Note that we've been spreading our
evenly, and opt to direct it all on Maria Theresa.Hamburg: (Growth) Granary interrupt > Settler
Munich: (Growth) Library interrupt > Settler
Science back up to 40%
Turn 7 | Turn 100 | 375BC
Between turns: Maria Theresa founds Confucianism.
Berlin pops a New Zealander of all things!!! Ernest Rutherford (Great Scientist), who has a nap with the view to at some point bulbing Philosophy (maybe).
Cologne's Monument is efficient enough to wrestle the Wheat resource off the HRE, and the citizen moves off the Gold Mine to work this new Wheat.
Cologne: Worker interrupt > Archer
Berlin: Chariot interrupt > Barracks resume
Turn 8 | Turn 101 | 350BC
Between turns: Napoleon demands that we cancel deals with the Ottomans, and again we send him away empty handed ... but he's now Annoyed.
Turn 9 | Turn 102 | 325BC
Note that Victoria's now capable of researching Divine Right.
Maria Theresa: Gold <> Wine
Turn 10 | Turn 103 | 300BC
Drama researched. Currency place-holder only. Research down to 0%
for hand-over.End the turnset noting that Munich's Settler is whippable.
Just about to finish building a road within the HRE to get another source of
going.Spoiler :
Roster:
nocho <<< On Deck
Sengir
vranasm
pigswill
lymond
Cam
cabert <<< Up
Similar threads
