Lionised and Vilified

[lymond]

We need Physic anyway so yeah. I think we switch to tech once we trade for Astro from Gustav.

Wall Street? FP? We don't need those buildings. This game is over in a few turns after we found Cereal Mills. We are not having money troubles at all.

Build wealth and research....run scientists

GE is being wasted in my opinion

 

[Cam_H]

Nice work vranasm!

I agree with lymond's earlier point "a)" that we might not get lucky with the Great Merchant pop, therefore a two Golden Age using the Great Engineer might move things along - and give us Anarchy-free Free Market plus +100% for our next shot at the Great Merchant.

As such, I'd keep him on hold until we know what we've got out of Frankfurt.

Agree with the other micro points on trade and what-not. I'm not too upset with that Jewish Synagogue build.

I'd begin to set up a to-be Cereal Mills founding city 'somewhere' though by getting up a Bank, Grocer, and Market there - we don't want to go broke while spreading our Corporation.

nocho
Sengir
vranasm
pigswill <<< Up
lymond <<< On Deck
Cam
cabert​

 

[vranasm]

Looks good. I'd still build the FP somewhere though, there's really no reason not to. It'll actually speed up research a bit, as then, as we're in the green already at 100% science, some cities could actually build research instead of wealth.

the intented city is Rheims, has biggest potential, but has to grow into the potential. Right now I am not sure if I finished there the jew temple and already on forge or not, but I was planning after JT+forge to build FP there.

 

[vranasm]

GE is being wasted in my opinion

he waits for the unlucky GP we get in 6 (or basically as Cam said)

 

[vranasm]

hmm if we get the Physics GS we could start the GA anyway... should speed up things a lot.

Considering Munich now it's probably time to change some of those FP farms into watermills... would be nice pairing with those windmills I put there.

 

[nocho]

Wall Street? FP? We don't need those buildings. This game is over in a few turns after we found Cereal Mills. We are not having money troubles at all.

If this were a SGOTM I'd have to thoroughly disagree on the FP. It's only 200 hammers, which would be 200 gold if buidling wealth. We need 37 turns to fridge, for instance Yayoi can build it in 7 turns. So then we have 30 turns to make up for the "lost" 200 gold, or less than 7gpt in saved maintenance. It'll be surely a multiple of this, so I think it's a good investment still which will speed up research (as cities could build research instead of wealth if in the green at 100% science). It's not a biggie, but it might shave off a turn or 2. Then again, it's no SGOTM, so whatever.

Do agree on no WS, as we run 100% science and don't have a single bank yet.

On another note, how do we win after spreading Cereal? Just vassal the rest of the world? Maybe we can build some more units in anticipation of that.

 

[Sengir]

Save the GE for a GA (with physics GS or unlucky GP from Frankfurt). And burn most of our cash to get to Refrigeration faster.

It won't take very long to get the corp spread to 12 cities; spread it to Munich asap and we'll churn out 1pt, probably more as other cities will contribute as well. As tech will be sped up as well, better to get more culture up in Berlin now.

The moment we get Refrigeration we can turn off science to get gold for corp spread and upgrading our troops to run over the last AI's. I'd not do any more trades with them (keeping them isolated the way vranasm did last set seems like the best plan to me). They should advance as slow as possible, so we can hopefully run over them with cavs.

And I'd build FP as well, it's not a lot of hammers and it saves quite a lot.

 

[pigswill]

btw Got It.

I'll play tomorrow. Bank in Munich, FP in Rheims, wealth/research everywhere else.

1 turn of medicine, pick up astronomy then switch to physics.

Workers build some watermills.

I'd do the gold clam trade with Maria.

 

[lymond]

Bank in Munich?

 

[Cam_H]

Munich does seem an odd choice - but given its -haul it's going to be the best city for churning out a Bank, a Market, and the first few Cereal Mills Executives (and already has a Grocer) as quickly as possible. I'm fine with it.

 

[lymond]

I just don't see the need for all those buildings in Munich. The actual affect of Cereal Mills on the game, i.e., more food, more maintenance, some gpt offset is basically totally irrelevant to the win. It fulfills the variant sure, but there is no need at all to nurture this corp. Once we get CM in then it's a short piledriver into England for the win.

We get a whole lot more in the short term with Munich building a whole lot of beakers.

If we were going for Space it would be a different matter, otherwise it just "overbuilding".

I think FP is a waste right now as well, but I'd rather build that somewhere over a bank in our HE city.

 

[Cam_H]

You raise a good point provided the win is quick, and 'my bad' on suggesting the Bank + Market.

The Bank + Market is a 7 turn build (using overflow), that ultimately will yield +30 free per turn (4 x 'say' 10 cities x +75%). The cost is 280 (given the Forge) which converts to 350 of opportunity cost (in that we're not building 'Wealth' while constructing the buildings).

So, on the face of it, it 'breaks even' after 12 turns. Unfortunately though, we won't be getting the +30 in Corporation payments out of the box, as there's time required to spread the Corporation around, so it'll go from 3 per turn to 30 per turn gradually, so you can increase that break even pay-back period to something more like 30 turns.

So 'yes' ... a quick win supports the 'no Bank + Market' proposition, while a drawn-out win could argue a case for the buildings.

 

[vranasm]

I too was a bit surprised with the Munich as THE Bank city.

There is another consideration... we don't have shrine city, so the Bank will have effect only when we don't run slider 100% and since we already switched into hammer economy (building wealth and research) it seems to me that the banks etc won't probably have ANY effect.

Another consideration is the culture in berlin which is due in ~50. Plenty of time.

What I think is that we need the FP and probably build courthouse in Berlin. Corps have pretty nasty maintenance and CH's are imo mandatory.

I think we don't have the need to build classic Corps structure with 6 banks and WS though.

If we're hot on the Bank, Market, Grocer... Hamburg as wannabe bureau cap is better candidate, with really low hammer output though, remember... banks, markets, grocers work for us with slider...

 

[Cam_H]

Corporation payments into the Corporation's headquarters city get the Bank multiplier regardless of the slider. For instance, in our Lalibela game, the city of Lalibela was getting multipliers off the Corporation income even though we were at 100%.

I'm fairly convinced by lymond's position that the infrastructure isn't really worth it. We just want to found Cereal Mills, spread it as quickly as we can, and then go stomp our way to victory. If we're quick about it, we'll end up with more money that the cost of building up commerce-multipliers. As per above, this was my error to suggest that we build a Bank + Market, as their cost won't be made up for in what I guess to be 30 turns. A 'Bank only' proposition brings us more toward a realistic 'break even' time, but it's still hard to justify if we have a speedy win in mind.

 

[vranasm]

hmm yeah...the corp payment... it's static 4g if i remember right so the bank brings at the founding point 2g which will gradually grow... tough to quantify the payback, but considering the expected 50T for Berlin i think it's maybe reasonable to expect 1 bank to pay back it's costs.

But the difference would be so small that it probably doesn't matter if we build the bank or not.

We could probably have the bank in mind when we're close to finishing refri, because those ~40 hammers converted to health are more useful now if we want to run 100% slider.

edit:
actually since we are so far from refridg the culture in berlin will be much closer after founding CM... so there probably won't be enough time to pay back.

 

[cabert]

the corp is giving 4 gold per city with the corp
that's 4x more than a shrine
I don't understand how the effect can be dismissed so easily

This being said, berlin has a market and a grocer. with just a bank, it's totally equipped.
That's my suggestion.

 

[pigswill]

Given that its all basically irrelevant I guess we're arguing more about aesthetics/design elegance than any practical considerations.

Be that as it may I'll skip building a bank anywhere.

 

[Sengir]

There probably is time to pay back the bank (and then some), as I don't think it's likely we tech any further then Refrigeration (ie, set slider to 0% when that is in, to afford for corp spreading and upgrading troops to finish off the leftover AI's faster).

 

[pigswill]

Played 9 turns. I have no idea if I played well or really badly or something in between.

1510 (T0). Start moving cuirassiers east to our recently captured cities (revolt chance 4-8%). Trade banana to Maria for crabs.
Rice to Nap for 2gpt.

1515. Trade edu and PP to Gustav for astronomy. Heard the phrase 'don't count your chickens before they hatch'?

1525. Trade bio to catwoman for rifling. Ask Catwoman to research constitution.
New deal: sully 5gpt for gold to 9gpt for gold.

1535. AP resolution: open borders to all. Vote no.
Note that Catwoman's acquired physics in trade (probably to Sully for rifling).
Trade music+PP to Gustav for DR.
Ask Cat to swop from economics to communism (to preserve economics' trade value).
Hamburf synagogue>grocer.

1540. AP resolution fails.
GM born in Frankfurt , heads to Berlin.
Catwoman pushes her luck:

1545. Catwoman cancels 8gpt for nothing, accepts 8gpt for ivory.
Sully pops a GE.

1550. FP completes in Rheims.
Sully builds Kremlin.
Medicine is in.

Start electricity.

1555. Vickers builds Statue of Liberty.
Make a deal with Nap:

Gift chemistry to Nap and Gus, not sure why, it seemed a good idea at the time.
Set Cat to research steel (10T).
Set Gustav to research corporation (8T).
Next GP due in Berlin in 7 turns.

An option for discussion:

Just to remind us that this is immortal after all:

Workers have been scurrying around inefficiently building worskhops and watermills.
Cities have been chopping and changing between cash and research.

A save:

 

[cabert]

Time to build some health buildings all around IMHO + a review of trades + starting unit building in munich for a final run.