Lizardmen

[Skavian]

Any chance we could have them nerfed a bit? I'd like to see a "lizardman" unit that is Strength 2 instead of 3. They appear pretty early in the game, and do enough damage with their movement capabilities and such. They don't really need a Strength of 3 so much to be deadly. Perhaps rather than just using the Hunter unit from the Orcs, there could be a new unit that gets bonuses to attack units but more severe minuses to attacking cities?

I played a game recently with a friend of mine and lost my capitol as Ljosalfar in the first 14 turns of the game, well before I even had a chance to get a warrior up and running to defend my capitol. This even though my capitol was on a hill and had its first culture defense bonus. Had the enemy been Strength 2 it would have been more reasonable, but I think the situation could have been replicated even with a different Civ and I still would have gone down in blazes.

One could chalk it up to a bad start, to bad luck, or whatever, but honestly I can't think of a good reason why the Lizardmen should be Strength 3, but I can think of plenty for why they should be Strength 2 or altered a little bit more.

 

[Airwreck]

You kinda got hit with bad luck. Their existence alone forces at least one warrior to almost always stay in your capital after 20 or so turns. Again. Bad luck in your case.

Lizards are the hunters for the Clan of Embers too.

 

[Thonnas]

I'm pretty sure there's still an ongoing debate about the hunter units. rest assured that you are not alone in thinking they need tweaking. The last good idea I remember was something like a larger flat minus percentage city strength (attack of defense).

 

[Sureshot]

changes i usually apply to hunters are -50% city strength (attack and defense) and moving them to Tracking.

currently i think the changes made to hunters has been increasing their production cost a few times.. that doesn't really help for Ruin spawning tho, and production is usually not the problem in faster game types, maintenance is.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I'd decrease lizardman cost and make them 3/2. Give you some chance to counterattack, at least, though it wouldn't help you if you're an elf with one scout guarding your city.

 

[vorshlumpf]

If you play the elves, you really need to rush that first warrior out. Emphasize production in your city until that is done. Depending on your settings and your starting location, it might even be necessary to rush that second warrior, too. All it takes is one unlucky battle for a second skeleton/lizard to have an easy victory against the lone, wounded defender.

 

[Dark Russell]

I like the idea of making them 2/2 but I'd give them a special bonus in Jungle/Forest, say +50%. This way they are the same str in Jungle/Forests as they are now but in the open or against cities they are less effective. They are still good raiders this way as well. Oh, and leave the CoE lizardmen alone.

 

[Grey Fox]

I've never had a barbarian Lizard attack any of my cities when they have a defender. Then again, I've never defended with a scout.

 

[Sarisin]

I'm a little surprised too that a Lizardman attacked your capital early on. But, I guess this game is always full of surprises. I have been bedeviled in the past (but not in .22) by early appearing Skeletons ending my game prematurely.

You didn't say what speed you were playing at, but I am guessing it was Epic or Marathon. There is an adjustment made for when barbarians appear based on game speed, but none for the early critters that appear.

This really needs to be done as it takes quite a few turns to build that first defender. Mr. V has a good idea in rushing production to be safe, but, of course, I find that slows you up in the race to get that first Settler and second city.

Now, I think the critters appear in turn 7 in all game speeds.

Why not have it turn 15 for Epic and turn 30 for Marathon? This would at least give you a chance to get a defender and avoid the bad luck of an early game over.

 

[Skavian]

I believe the game was set to Normal, actually. Like I said, it was a run of bad luck, but I still have noticed a general problem with Lizardmen that could be fixed with some alteration. I like to think of them as fast and irritating harassments. As I have said, they don't really need to have Strength 3 to take that away from them. Really, they should be replaced with a similar unit that is less powerful, so as to not rob the Clan of their Hunter unit.

 

[Seont]

I've never had a barbarian Lizard attack any of my cities when they have a defender. Then again, I've never defended with a scout.

i have had them attack a city(my captial even) on several occasions, when defended by 2-3 warriors. normal speed, prince or noble(which ever is easiest, i forget)
insult to injury, they usually get away after doing it.(last time i played was .21though)

 

[EugeneStyles]

Even if you have a warrior in your city, 3 Str barbarians that early in the game are obnoxious. 2 Str, with +25% to defend, versus 3 Str with -25% to attack = the Lizardmen still win >50% of the time. Even if you're creative, the extra 20% bonus from the first culture expansion still doesn't quite make up the difference.

If you build your first city on a hill (not always an option, and not always the best place even when it is an option), it makes it basically a 50-50 proposition, meaning you have to defend your city with 2 warriors, which really shuts down exploration early in the game.

As much as I love this mod, I'm not at all a fan of the level of early barbarian activity, and this is *without* raging barbarians turned on. I really wish there were more options like earlier versions of Civ, like "Villages only, Peaceful, Normal, Rampant, etc..." or whatever the levels were called.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

So do I. I would really like an option to make no barb units spawn, but more cities (which could build units, of course)

 

[vorshlumpf]

So do I. I would really like an option to make no barb units spawn, but more cities (which could build units, of course)

If you really want this, you can do it yourself in the XML (or, probably, through that Excel sheet). There's a setting for barb cities. I've fiddled with the barb configuration myself, making them stronger and more likely to appear.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Lizardmen almost never attack your cities. Skeletons are another issue, but they only have one move and can't promote.

 

[snarko]

As much as I love this mod, I'm not at all a fan of the level of early barbarian activity, and this is *without* raging barbarians turned on. I really wish there were more options like earlier versions of Civ, like "Villages only, Peaceful, Normal, Rampant, etc..." or whatever the levels were called.

So do I. I would really like an option to make no barb units spawn, but more cities (which could build units, of course)

I'm making a mod mod which has these options. You can set how likely barbarians/animals/cities are to spawn. It doesn't yet control the barbarians that this mod adds such as barrows/dens/etc, but now that I have the system itself in place adding new options or modifying existing ones is easy. I'll release it as soon as the most recent SDK source code is available (and I've had time to merge it with my changes).

 

[R0GERSHRUBBER]

Lizardmen almost never attack your cities. Skeletons are another issue, but they only have one move and can't promote.

This is what I have experienced as well; if anything is a threat to early cities, it's skeletons. This is especially true if there are multiple nearby barrows or a "lucky" Sailor's Dirge.

So why is it that Lizardmen will often leave your Workers alone, but Skeletons won't pass up a chance to kill one? Is the AI treating the Lizardmen as a scout of some sort? To my understanding, the AI can always see the entire map anyway.

 

[vorshlumpf]

I've found lizardmen to be opportunists. They attack when you are vulnerable (e.g., wounded after a battle, your worker is alone near your borders, ...). And, yes, I've never had a lizardman attack my cities in recent games - but I also make sure my cities are defended.

 

[zdpotter]

All that the Lizardmen have done to me is kill my scouts when they are roaming about early-game, or walk around my borders, but not really do anything a bit later in the early game. And they really seem to be even less of a bother since the newer patches.

 

[ChaoticWanderer]

i have had most my problems with skeletons but msotly they just suddenly turn irraitable and have all of them rushing at my cities at once. which is like a scene from the movie night of the living dead to have 6 or 7 skeletons all advancing on your capital