LK102, Deity, RaR, just win.

[Greebley]

One thing I forgot. Switch Jenne to a Hardy Cultivator. I didn't take the need for an extra food into account (I prefer settler over worker housing since we are maxed out on food. Growing also seems most important to me to grab as much land as we can. We will be definitely have limited towns this game since we dont have massive food.

 

[T_McC]

I have a few disagreements with the dot-map. As Greebley said, we'll be limited in food for a while so our cities won't be able to use a lot of tiles. Thus I think we should try to pack the cities in a bit more.

We can put two cities in place of the Yellow dot: One that is 1 NE of yellow, and the second SW-S. I am really unafraid of settling at distance 3 from the AI, and I've already decided in my mind that we're going to be fighting the Sioux sooner rather than later. The original yellow dot isn't a production powerhouse so splitting the forests between two cities won't have much of an impact.

The red dot is really weirdly placed. If it goes 1 SE we can get both cows with a single border expansion. The Inca city still doesn't have expanded borders, and the AI seem completely unwilling to build Monuments. Moving the dot 1 NE would get us a Cow immediately, and the 2nd upon border expansion. The NE location should still lock the AI out of the Incense location and should only have 1 tile of overlap with the Incan city (which I think we can out-culture. ). Again, I just don't fear the Incan culture.

Blue dot is fine.

I'd love to get the Sheep, but it's probably best to say Timbuktu is as far south and the red-dot is as far NE as we'll go. Just take those as the boundaries and fill in our backlands. Now exactly where we're going to get the food to do this ....

I can't figure out what is in the Blue circle. Another lux? It will be nice when our southern scout returns to tell us what is in our backyard.

 

[T_McC]

lurker's comment:
Sorry for the threadjack, but with all that expertise here:
What do you think is the worst RAR Civ?
Persia? Siam?

Well ... Polynesia is a mess. If you're not on a minimal landmass 'pelago, the UU is almost UUseless. But if you are on a minimal landmass 'pelago, Expansionist is useless.

In RaR, Expansionist is only useful on upper levels if you pop settlers from huts. Since everyone can build scouts and the AI get beaucoup starting units, it's tough to grab a whole lot of huts with your Rangers. And since there are so many more techs in the tree, getting 3-4 techs isn't the windfall it would be in straight C3C. So the list of worst civs probably looks like "Who got stuck with Expansionist". Polynesia has the worst 2nd trait and the worst UU. I haven't played the Zulu yet in RaR, but they look awful. A faster, slightly weaker MDI with Blitz? So you can attack multiple defense-1 units in a round? And Militaristic is either the best trait or neck-and-neck with Seafaring depending on whether you can jump on someone early.

The other Expansionist civs have good UU's (Cossacks, Ansars, Braves, Sipahi) and one of the uber-traits (Comm, Ind) or good cheap buildings. Industrious is underrated. Free labor without fighting wars is very useful in the hands of the human, and that saves America from being an awful civ.

My other nominee for worst civ: Spain. Religious is OK, Seafaring is weak. But I have no idea how that UU is supposed to work. With the 1.04 changes it is at least a cheap, no-upkeep defender for non-frontline cities. But it's not an offensive unit itself, nor can it defend itself against contemporary offensive units. RaR's 2-man armies also mute the C3C use for Conquistadors: No longer can they comprise an immune pillaging army.

Persia looks like a tough civ to play. Iffy UU (wow, a Sword that has as many HP as the 3-defense units it will be attacking) and the "all-or-nothing" Militaristic trait, but Industrious is useful. Completely different from C3C, they look like a difficult builder's civ.

Siam has an interesting UU, although much better for the AI than the human. Strong attacker, sure to die on defense, pre-Barracks. Much more useful when they only cost 18 shields for the AI. The civ traits are almost as opposed as Polynesia. Agr works best on Pangaea, Sea on 'pelago. The traits and the UU do lead towards a natural strategy: Siam, Vikings of the South Asian Sea! Like the Vikings in C3C it looks like you can only be strong if you go on an amphibious binge. Which makes you a great disruptor, but a lousy conqueror. Since they look like Tibet (and Japan), I'm not really sure the last time I played against these guys.

 

[Greebley]

The red dot is placed for no overlap. If we don't care about overlap, then I agree there are much better places.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with EXP needing help. That was the main reason why we introduced the 'Skilled Barbarian Raider' in 1.04; IMHO getting like 2 of these early is a huge benefit, better than a tech.
Also, EXP means starting with Domestication; a huge bonus if you do not restart until you get a nice one.
The Immortals real benefit is that you get it with Bronze Working, and do not require a resource. Actually, Persia is the only Civ that can bong some heads at that time (when Champs/Braves/Jags loose out against Spears).
Polynesia is indeed among the weaker. But OTOH, it isn't even close to being as bad as Portugal.
Spain is like in unmodded - some (including me) really like it, most wonder what to do with it.
Good catch on America. A real problem with the other EXP Civs is the unit support - those 4 Rangers running around really hurt in Chiefdom, when you have to pay your Workers as well. Hm, maybe that would be a good help - Rangers requiring no support?

 

[T_McC]

I agree with EXP needing help. That was the main reason why we introduced the 'Skilled Barbarian Raider' in 1.04; IMHO getting like 2 of these early is a huge benefit, better than a tech.
...
Hm, maybe that would be a good help - Rangers requiring no support?

Agree on Rangers requiring no support, but do the AI build many? [Edit: Doesn't matter, they're not the ones who have unit support problems.]

The primary "benefit" to EXP of introducing the 'Skilled Barbarian Raider' is to prevent the human playing as a non-EXP from popping huts. Prior to 1.04, I would very regularly pop a Settler from the first hut I found, Exp or not. Now that first hut is almost always a Raider, and then the non-Exp might as well give up popping huts at high levels since you now have a military unit. But getting a couple of those might keep the AI off your back for a while at the beginning of the game, so that's a good thing.

I assume it is not possible to flag a building as EXP to give a price break to an EXP civ. Not really sure what would constitute an "Expansionist" building anyway.

 

[Greebley]

I like the no support idea. It would definitely give exp the leg up it needs for early contact which helps. Even has some realism of them living off the land.

It wouldn't work if Rangers had defense (or offense) though (don't remember if they do) as they are then support free town guards and MP's which isn't the intent.

 

[T_McC]

The Immortals real benefit is that you get it with Bronze Working, and do not require a resource. Actually, Persia is the only Civ that can bong some heads at that time (when Champs/Braves/Jags loose out against Spears).

Resourceless is good, but at higher levels an Immortal rush is still a loser. A 30-shield unit that can muster an ~40% chance of victory vs. its contemporary opponent (fortified Spear) isn't a bargain, especially when only 1 city in the empire can produce vets. I'd rather have three 2.1.2 Braves than two 3.1.1 Immortals, and don't even ask about Jags . Retreat is really powerful.

Basically, all of the Civs with Sword UU's are hosed because that is the only part of the RaR tech tree before MG's where defense is ahead of offense. If Swords had a base of 5 HP (like Spears, who precede them on the tech tree ), then the Sword-based UU's would be good. As it stands only the Gallic looks good to me, and that's because it can retreat, which I feel is worth ~50% bonus to the shield cost. Or ... it has an effective cost 1/3 lower than list price.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I assume it is not possible to flag a building as EXP to give a price break to an EXP civ. Not really sure what would constitute an "Expansionist" building anyway.

Prisons are flagged as EXP. But that's more an easter egg, it doesn't serve any purpose.
I don't even think Rangers as cheap MPs are unbalanced, btw.

 

[LKendter]

I have a few disagreements with the dot-map. As Greebley said, we'll be limited in food for a while so our cities won't be able to use a lot of tiles. Thus I think we should try to pack the cities in a bit more.

Can you post your proposed dot-map. I know we don't want to create a bunch of cities that can't get to size 15.

 

[T_McC]

Here's what I was talking about in the S:

The pink dots and the open circles are tiles that belong to only 1 city. We have a couple of 3-tile strips that are overlap. I count at least 13 tiles for blue and 13 tiles for pink without using any of the overlapping regions. Yellow has 7 tiles that are not overlapped with either our cities or Wounded Knee. It has access to 8 tiles that are overlap amongst our cities. All three cities can easily reach size 15, if we get some irrigation.

The pink and yellow dots use a lot of water, so they are primarily economic cities. But since there are not other Hills/Mountains in that region, no single city would be a particulary good production city either. Disadvantage to yellow dot is a bit of cultural pressure, advantage is that we set a strict two-city front vs. the Sioux, and can mass a bit of Artillery to great effect.

 

[Bezhukov]

Well, since Stonehenge is an EXP wonder, you could give EXP even cheaper granaries (granaries are already cheaper in RandR).

As for relative trait strengths in RandR, I think T_McC underrates SEA - given the strategically important improvements it gives discounts for (harbor, port, major port, fishery, offshore platform - given the extra forest tiles these allow to be worked, and the capacity of forest to be mined, and thus railed, in RandR, these improvements are deceivingly powerful) as well as the commerce bonus that gets multiplied so many more times in RandR, SEA is very strong on all but pangaea maps.

 

[LKendter]

I really think Polynesias traits and UU work bad together. Expansionist works best with large land masses to get a decent number of huts and find other civs quickly.

The Outrigger is best for a small island world. A small island world is horrid for expansionist.

 

[LKendter]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK102-1500BC.zip

1750 BC
I swap Gao to granary. We can't afford to have the capitol staying stuck at size one to long. Our GPT payments will end long before the granary is built.

Jenne has an impossible mission of building a Cultivator. That costs 3 pop points, but the city won't hit that until size 4. I switch to a hardy.


1725 BC
The Sioux just ended all the dot map plans for the south with the placement of Dakota.


1525 BC
(IT) I revolt immediately as I see no reason to delay it.


1500 BC
Anarchy will end next turn.

==========================

Summary:
We have already been beat to Dynasticism as expected. We should push the typical path to Poetry and Drama, as they almost always become monopoly techs.


Signed up:
LKendter
T_McC (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Romeothemonk (skip May 7th to May 20th)
Sanabas (indefinite skip -waiting to hear back in the loop)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.

 

[Greebley]

Not at all suprised about the south. I was thinking even the one town ambitious.

In fact we may have to work hard to not have the Sioux take all the lands north of us. I would settle the North before the blue town on the river near the pigs. We won't have competition for that spot.

 

[LKendter]

I forget to post a picture with the good news from learning Dynasticism.

 

[T_McC]

LK102 - Goin back to Mali, Mali ...

1500 BC (0)
Anarchy! Anarchy!

1475 BC (1)
And then that was over.

Two of the AI have Bronze Working, so Mythology looks like a fair bet for a monopoly.

Hardy in 3, TG in 1. I think I'll go for the spot where we can steal the Cows.

I think Abe will be a monster, he has oodles of land to expand into. On the other hand, the Sioux are going to have to start going through our territory. We do, however, have more culture than the Sioux.

1450 BC (2)
I'm going to shy away from the Slave Markets until we get lux hooked up. We don't need to be kill our economy like that.

One TG completes, another is ordered up. I want to send the Pioneer with two escorts.

1425 BC (3)

1400 BC (4)
Hardy completes, start a Granary in Jenne.

Mythology still looks good. TG completes, another is ordered up. Love those no-support units.

1375 BC (5)
Stonehenge completes on the other continent. By the Iroquois. Who would have ever guessed they were in the game.

Lux goes to 10% for Gao.

1350 BC (6)
Build an embassy with the Sioux. Monarchy, no Horses but they do have Iron. Same Dyes we have. They do not know the Americans.

1325 BC (7)
Dyes hooked up, Gao finishes TG and starts Pioneer.

Timbuktu completes Monument and begins a worker.

Found Diffa, start Monument. The city grows in 4, so we're on a Whip Watch for Greebley's first turn. We claim one of the cows, and will get the 2nd with a border expansion.

Change my mind and swap Gao to a Monument. If we can get it in 2, I'll let it finish.

1300 BC (8)
Diffa hooked to our empire. Can configure Gao to finish Monument in 1, so it will.

Mythology due next turn.

1275 BC (9)
We do have Mythology at monopoly. Abe offers ... ehh everybody offers the same thing. So let's trade this at monopoly twice. Cash doesn't do us much good, so Mythology to Sioux for Bronze Working and 30 gold. Abe unwisely trades us The Wheel, Fermentation, and 20 gold for Mythology. Then Mythology at 4th to the Inca for 70 gold.

Set research to Philosophy, I figure the AI is chasing Iron Working. (Same price as Poetry, and also a pre-req for Drama).

Gao completes Monument, goes to African Warrior. After that we leave two Warriors as MP and send the TG out with the next Settler.

Build an Embassy with the Incans. They make 5 cpt in their capital, and have no Horses. They appear to have no culture outside of their capital so we will pass them in culture soon.

Build Embassy with the Americans. Lots of culture, lots of resources. They will be a monster this game.

Hmmm ... Timbuktu could use another MP soon.

1250 BC (10)
Nothing happenin'

Final Notes:
Diffa can use a whip after 1 turn, if we want to complete the Monument ASAP. The city can then provide workers for our empire. You could change the Granary in Jenne to Worker Housing, but I think we need it as a 2nd Settler source unless we decide Diffa will do it. With two Cows it should be able to provide 15-turn Pioneers.

 

[T_McC]

Blue dot is the only tile we can settle that will claim the Iron, Incense and Tobacco. We can trade the extra Iron to the Incans, they are too dumb to realize they don't need it for their UU. Pink dot is more aggressive and claims the Oasis and a Sheep with a border expansion. One of these two should be the next city.

The red dots are spots we can fill in to get to the 10-city mark and be able to build the alternative Palaces. The Sioux might start coming around in boats soon, but their coastal cities are fairly new.

Not sure whether to build a Hardy or a regular in Gao. It does not appear as though we can get the build timed with growth for the regular, but we may be able to do it for the Hardy. We can make 10 spt at either size 3 or 4, so actually ... the Hardy may only take 1 more turn than the regular (5 vs. 4) and save us a pop point. We could build a regular in 3 but we don't want to drop the capital to size 2.

Keep checking to see if the Sioux meet the Americans. Take full advantage if they don't.

 

[LKendter]

We do have Mythology at monopoly.

Isn't the bottom of the tech tree so nice in RaR?
It seems that area is the ultimate research area for the human player to get trading material.

Change my mind and swap Gao to a Monument.

I am very glad you did. With us fighting early culture wars in deity we need every point of culture we can get our hands on.

I PMed Sanabas to tried and find out when he will be back.

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
T_McC
Greebley (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (skip May 7th to May 20th)
Sanabas (indefinite skip -waiting to hear back in the loop)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.

 

[Greebley]

Ok, I got it.