LK102, Deity, RaR, just win.

[Greebley]

Preturn: Looks good to me.

Early:

Mid: Build a Settler

Late: Found
We get philosophy. I set our next tech to Iron Working on a whim and we get that as well.
Oddly enough no civ is researching Iron Working.
Trade Abe Philosophy+15 gold for Construction and Trade.
We can't quite trade Philosophy for Aristocracy and Code of Laws with our 145 gold (I would need to throw in 1 gpt). Instead I trade 1 gpt to the Inca for 15 gold.
I then trade the Sioux Philosophy and 147 gold for Aristocracy and Code of Laws.
I then trade the Incans Philosophy for Naval Warfare and 48 gold.
Finally I trade Aristocracy and Code of Laws for Civil Engineering.

After trading we have Iron Working above all 3 civs. I switch the Capitol to our first Sword. My suggestion is to keep the Capitol on Military. I also feel we can safely rebuff demands for Iron Working. America is the biggest but has the farthest to go. We would be ready by the time they got to us.

If we build sufficient Military we won't even get demands.

I put Timbuktu on Spearmen. With 3 defense they are likely to promote and become Vet that way if we get into a war.

----------------------

Basically I feel we can hold off any single AI that attacks us. We have defense 3 units and they only have 2 attacks. Combined with our superior attack 3 units, it is doable. Once we get more units built we will be immune from demands. At that point we can decide if we want to continue to build units and attack or go for infra and settlers. Capturing all the Sioux cities would give us as much or more expansion that we will get by settling. This is my preferred strategy. Build up and attack.

When I checked, no AI was going for Iron Working, the price was the same (2 techs + gold). If the AI's get techs for us to trade for and is about to get iron working, we can then trade it before the AI gets it.

I changed Diffa to a Spear. The reason is to build units fast so we don't get demands (and are ready if we get a war too). After that I would go for a Shrine.

Incense is connected if we want the temple line of buildings.

 

[T_McC]

Not convinced about a heavy military build-up, we've still got 3-4 easy city sites to grab and I would think land we can get by not fighting is easier than land we have to fight for. Plus Swords are junk and not on the path to our UU. If we're building military for defense, and I'm assuming we are not going to try an Infantry rush right now, Cats are always good. Plus Cats don't need to be Vets (hint, hint ). With our compact empire I figure 3-4 Cats + 3-4 Swords would probably be sufficient, plus we can get the MP shuffle going to upgrade frontline TGs to vet Spears. We don't have much other use for the cash although we probably want to man the backlines with the non-upkeep TGs and and leftover Warriors. Might be a stronger argument to build fresh vet Spears and shuffle the exisiting TGs to new cities. We might also want to disband our Scouts, they'll start costing upkeep soon if they haven't already and I suspect we've seen our entire continent.

Can we build any worthwhile mounted units? Most of the early ones are overpriced crap, but some are cheaply upgradable to our UU. I think we can build Chariots (40 shields) now, and they do eventually upgrade to Mali HH (70 shields) in about 3 stages. Probably only worth building if we're bored. Once we get the tech for Cataphracts (Barding) or Heavy Horsemen (Horse Breeding) we can pre-build our UU as those units are 60 shields, and are useful enough by themselves.

Can't open the save now, but Diffa did build the Monument, right? Or are we already out-cultured there? I think the 2nd Cow is worth a lot more than a reg. Spear. If the Monument wasn't built, and the Incan city still shows unexpanded borders, LK should probably look into whipping a Shrine (no net whip penalty).

We should also take full advantage of our Counselors and build them early in any city that is not 1st ring to Gao. No upkeep and should return at least an additional 1 spt + trade.

 

[LKendter]

We should also take full advantage of our Counselors and build them early in any city that is not 1st ring to Gao.

I think they are even worth it in the first ring cities later. When the cities are large enough ever the first ring benefits from the corruption reduction.

Not convinced about a heavy military build-up, we've still got 3-4 easy city sites to grab and I would think land we can get by not fighting is easier than land we have to fight for.

I agree - I always prefer to complete the peaceful grab first.


Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
T_McC (on deck)
Greebley
Romeothemonk (skip May 7th to May 20th)
Sanabas (indefinite skip -waiting to hear back in the loop)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.

 

[Greebley]

I want enough military so the AI doesn't take Iron working from us.

1) An attack - My thought on the attack was that we have superior fire power now.

2) Defense - We can choose to build the Mil that is currently building which should help with demands and allow us to ignore threats and then go back to settle.

3) Farmer Gambit - If we don't want to build military at all, then trade iron working to the civ with cash and gift it to the rest so we get something for it.

If we don't want to go for 1, then I much prefer 2 over 3. My preference for 1 is not strong. 2 seems fine to me if you both want it.

[Edit: I think our limit even with the farmers gambit will be 3 cities. The one at the mouth of the river is ours. We could probably get 2 to the north but to get more seems difficult (unless we squeeze and crowd the AI).

 

[T_McC]

My thoughts ...

1) An attack - My thought on the attack was that we have superior fire power now.

Really don't like. Yes, we'd have the best units in the field. But ... we would get swamped by the AI numbers. Swords are not particularly good units, even attacking TGs. They would have a slightly worse than 50% chance of winning vs. a TG, and vs. resourceless Spears they are an even bigger waste of time. We could take a little bite out of one of the AI, but I don't see what that gains us besides animosity. The shields necessary to capture an AI city would be greater than those required to settle one ourselves, so let's hold off on the war until we can do it right (with Mali HH). Our two neighbors will either lack mounted units (Sioux) or Pikes (Inca). When we get our UU we can exploit the resource gap to crush one of our neighbors.

2) Defense - We can choose to build the Mil that is currently building which should help with demands and allow us to ignore threats and then go back to settle.

This sounds good, especially if Gao can hit 15 spt. Most of our new settlements should only require 1 defensive unit, so Gao can improve our military while we settle. Maybe 3-4 Swords and Spears to replace TGs. The TGs can go to our backlines, and cities without Barracks can sneak in a Cat. I can imagine Gao having to pop a Hardy Pioneer in here somewhere, while Jenne builds a Cat or two between Pioneers. So I would advocate an "offensive defense" force of 6-8 units between Swords and Cats, and that can probably be accomplished in the next 20 turns without much of a break from settling.

3) Farmer Gambit - If we don't want to build military at all, then trade iron working to the civ with cash and gift it to the rest so we get something for it.

I doubt we could do a Farmer's Gambit even if we wanted to, we don't have enough food. I still wonder whether we can grab the Sheep site in the north. It appears from the screenshot that it is open. I am really unafraid of fighting cultural battles with the AI, especially since we will soon have little to build but cultural items and shield enhancers.

I'm not worried about an AI founding a city in our NW. It would be completely indefensible and would be ours once we decided we wanted it. Besides, Abe should still have plenty of room to put down cities and the Inca have a long sail/walk to get to our backyard. I am certainly not opposed to clumsily leaving units in the path of the AI to prevent them from heading the direction they want to go. Most likely the Sioux will try to grab something behind us, but I figure they'll just be keeping it warm.

 

[LKendter]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK102-750BC.zip

1000 BC
I would like to get a better picture of the coast, and a clue how to contact the other continent. I swap Timbuktu to a galley. There is enough corruption in Diffa to already justify a counselor.
(IT) India completes the Hanging Gardens.


975 BC
The Sioux landed a settler behind our lines.

I give the Inca Iron Working for Riding and $135.
I sell the Sioux Iron Working for $130.
America has nothing of worth to trade for.


950 BC
I buy a Sioux worker for $125.
(IT) The Iroquois complete the Great Wall.


925 BC
I see an American scout in Incan territory. There is no question of contact with the Inca.


800 BC
(IT) The Sioux complete the Sphinx for free barracks. There threat level has increased.
The Aztecs complete Slave Trade.


775 BC
We have a poetry monopoly, but we just don't have enough trading partners to fully take advantage of monopoly techs.

I give the Inca Poetry and $120 for Republic.
I give America Republic and Iron Working for Democracy.
I give the Sioux Poetry and $55 for Seafaring.
(IT) The Inca complete the Mausoleum.


750 BC
(IT) Zinder is formed and starts a monument. It will need a counselor next.


==========================

Summary:
Do we want to revolt to Democracy or Republic?

The trading ship is being built as it can move in sea tiles. I really want a clue where the other continent is.

Signed up:
LKendter
T_McC (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Romeothemonk (skip May 7th to May 20th)
Sanabas (indefinite skip -waiting to hear back in the loop)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.

 

[LKendter]

The white circle is a settler heading toward the warrior area. We have another city to build there.

An update from the front:

 

[T_McC]

I'll turn this around again tonight, but I'll wait for Greebley's opinion on the government. I think we want Republic, since we are probably going to build up a good-size military and workforce. We can trade cash-rush for more MP (due to small amount of lux) and lower support costs. I doubt we'll be too injured by a 70% rate cap.

 

[LKendter]

Good point on the military. The 5CCC+ game was getting killed with unit cost and democracy. Switching to a $2 support cost really helped that game.

 

[Greebley]

Republic. Even in a passive game I would choose Republic. One can't build workers if one is a Democracy.

[Edit: I am 100% sure that republic unit cost is increasing in the final 1.04 because republic is too much of a good deal.

 

[T_McC]

LK102 - A Beautiful Mali-dy

750 BC (0)
I'd like to revolt in 2, but I think it will have to wait for 3 turns. Can't whip the Shrine in Diffa soon enough.

Start to wake the worker this is roading a tile we can't use, but he'll be done next turn anyway.

I've never been in a Republic in RaR, and I just now see how unbalanced it is. That's for us!

Abe and the Sioux still don't know each other, that will likely change on this round. Elephant Training is widely known, and we don't care. We're going the cheese-tacular Lit route. We do want to pick up Barding, but don't really need anything else on the Horse line until Stirrup.

The new city will go 1 SW of the Warrior, so we can keep the Sioux city and claim the Rocks.

IT - Sioux jack us up for 23 gold. What-ever.

730 BC (1)
Movin'. That "island" appears Marsh-tacular. Disband Southern Scout before he requires upkeep.

710 BC (2)
Shuffle some tiles.

IT - Abe and Ata steal some gold from us. Maybe we'll do something after the Anarchy.

690 BC (3)
Found Tessasoua. Gao pops a settler, heading for the pig spot as that Island is showing no tiles we could land on.

Whip Shrine in Diffa, then revolt. Draw 3 turns. Also notice there is a spot where we can land on the island, so the Pioneer will go there.

650 BC (5)
We're going to claim our 3rd Iron on that island.

Our continent is friggin' huge. We'll need to swallow up the Sioux to match the size of the Incans and the Americans.

630 BC (6)
We become a Republic, and I can't figure out where the Sioux settler is going. Disband the Northern Scout, he'll never make it home.

We have no unit support costs, and 10% lux is sufficient to calm the populace.

610 BC (7)
Nothing to see here.

590 BC (8)
Unload units on island. The city site will have monstrous shields, but not until Fisheries.

570 BC (9)
Drama in: to Sioux for Barding + 40 gold, Drama + 60 gold to Abe for Polytheism, Drama to Inca for 90 gold.

Trade our Iron to the Inca for Lateen Sail, Sugar, and 160 gold. Lateen Sail back to Abe for our 60 gold back. We can have another Iron hooked up in about 3 turns, and the Inca will eventually get it from settling in their backyard.

Then point us towards Lit.

Found Maroi, start in on a Counselor which will either require 20 turns or a whip. After that it can build a Harbor and some culture.

With the Incan Sugar we can turn lux down to 0%.

550 BC (10)
Start roading the 2nd Iron. Gao completes Forge and now can make 15 spt. Note: We can now mine.

Diffa pops settler, left unmoved. I can't see any better ideas than the pig site SW of Gao, but next guy might.

Final Notes:
I got us another couple of workers and a Catapult, one more of each should complete on the IT. We are otherwise short on military although Gao is now a 2-turn unit factory. We are below our unit support limit and our economy is fine. The next city should give us the option to build the FP (Diffa?). Otherwise I think we want a few more workers now to improve terrain while cities concentrate on production boosters. Then we build our heavy military and econ boosters. Counselors are always a good idea.

Pictures next.

 

[LKendter]

Gao pops a settler, heading for the pig spot as that Island is showing no tiles we could land on.

In RaR you can settler on marsh. I don't understand this comment. True the cities will useless for shields until rails, but it would increase our odds for resources.



Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
T_McC
Greebley (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (skip May 7th to May 20th)

Sanabas (indefinite skip -waiting to hear back in the loop)
If he doesn't show soon, I may post for another player.

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.

 

[T_McC]

Firstly, the cross-post: Yes, regular Pioneers can settle on Marshes. But ... they can't enter the tile to begin with unless there is a road on it. So unless the game ignores those sort of limitations when boats are unloading, there are only two tiles on that island settleable by regular Pioneers.

Now the picture of what's new

The blue circle is a Sioux Galley with a Hardy Pioneer on it, so expect a weirdly-placed city as our neighbor on that island.

There's a Warrior in our SW standing in a weird spot. I was blocking the Sioux settler from getting any funny ideas about stealing our pig. That is not where we want the city.

Diffa can either go production boosters/FP or workers. It can use 3 mined Plains and 2 mined Forests at size 7 (15 base shields), it requires an Aqueduct to grow larger. We seem to be clear of any complications from the whip as it should be happy at size 6 with 0% lux.

The Iron trade was kind of a goof. I was thinking about making the trade, and wanted to see what it was worth to the Inca. I then clicked the wrong button and accepted the deal before I could haggle. Not worth re-loading, the only thing I would have done differently would have been to try to get Military Training instead of Lateen Sail + cash. Since we'll hook the 2nd Iron up soon, we should continue to trade it to the Incans or they will just demand it away. They don't need it for their UU and there is a source in their backyard. If the Americans beat them to that source, Abe will just trade it the Inca anyway.

 

[T_McC]

A few more thoughts:

If there is a resource on that island, the Sioux will point us to it. If they settle the Jungle end, we can use the active Pioneer to grab the Hill site. The Iron city can only work the Iron Mt + 1 Jungle tile before Fisheries or High Explosives, so the second hill site isn't generating any meaningful overlap (it can work 2 Marsh or 1 Jungle + the other mountain). Each can work enough water tiles to make them worthwhile econonomic cities and the Iron city in particular can take short breaks and run high shields.

The other question is whether we missed the Iron Works site by 1 tile, or if we got it right.

We are a long way from deficit research, so we can use our cash to either buy a 2-fer or upgrade our units. TGs are support-free so we want to keep those, maybe we build Spears and upgrade our vet Warriors to Swords? Probably the most efficient way to beef up our military quickly. The Spears replace the TGs on the front lines, and the TGs replace the Warriors as back-line MP.

Our UU is 70 shields (available at Stirrup) and we currently have a 60-shield Horse unit available, if/when Gao reaches 20 spt. We can research Stirrup as the first tech after the Dark Ages.

Hopefully I'm remembering this correctly and the FP becomes available after 10 cities. Diffa can be our 2nd 20 spt city with the FP, and maybe without. The defensive bonus of the FP would also be welcome there.

I always wondered what happened to Colosseums. I thought the RaR crew had taken them out of the game.

Our empire is just about connected so our workers can concentrate on mining. We have no unit support issues yet, so we should be able to double our workforce with little pain. We also double our unit support with growth to size 8+.

 

[Greebley]

I got it.

Do we want to try for the GLib? I am fairly neutral on this. Anyone have an opinion?

 

[T_McC]

Not a big fan of the Great Library in this particular game. We're near tech parity as it stands, and if we get Classical Ed first we'll enter the MA just about the same time as the AI.

I'm thinking an early-MA war vs. the Sioux with our UU, so I'd rather have the 6/7/8 Mali HH than the Great Library (total depends on whether we're building them fresh or upgrading 60 shield units). If we're in a GA we can keep up in research until Education. The other factor is that we're not in a cash-rush gov't, so I'm not sure what being able to turn research off really accomplishes for us except a big nest egg for the early IA. I don't think we want to aim for Absolute Monarchy, so the first cash-rush gov't we get will probably be Constitutional Monarchy. (Haven't really tried that one out, but it looks to have good WW fighting wonders so it could be a more flexible gov't than Fed Republic.)

 

[Greebley]

Ya, I agree the GLib isn't that thrilling this game. I will work on getting to our UU.

I will play tomorrow sometime.

 

[Greebley]

Preturn: Some MM gets us more food without slowing builds.

IBT: Inca declares on Sioux! I think this means we can go to war sooner rather than later. We need only wait until the Sioux have used up their initial units.

Early: Classical education is a bust for trading. All civs know it before we do.

Buy: Military Tradition for 235 gold and Horse breeding for 4 gpt + 192 gold from the Inca.
I will be building the Heavy Horsemen. They are a good upgrade to our UU. Also building slave Markets. Towns are starting to need 10% lux so we can afford to built them.

Mid: We miss the boat on Lit as well. Everyone has it.
Build Tahoua near at the mouth of the river.

Late: Declare war on the Sioux. I would wait a bit longer, but we lose some slaves if we do. I think we should be able to handle the assaults.

Notes:
Not sure it was the right choice, but the Inca-Sioux war was too tempting. We are putting off building Infrastructure for one and hopefully more cities taken through conquest. We may even be able to take much of the Sioux lands if we continue the war and double our empire size. We have no alliance so peace can be taken if it becomes advisable when they will talk to us. I would rather make some progress before we do that.

My though was that the Healed Heavy Horse and the Next Heavy Horse could go out and take the city behind our lines.

I would like to keep the war going through Lee's turn while concentrating on military. By TMcC's turn we should be able to make good progress vs the Sioux.

 

[LKendter]

LKendter (currently playing)
T_McC (on deck)
Greebley
Romeothemonk (skip May 7th to May 20th)
Sanabas (indefinite skip -waiting to hear back in the loop)

OPEN SLOT

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.

 

[Greebley]

I have noticed that when the AI is battling both us and another AI, if we keep our cities well defended, the AI will go for the other civ and you don't have to worry about units coming at you.

We can work 30 shields at negative food in the capitol. We may want to do that to get Jenne enough defense so they go after the Inca instead.