LK102, Deity, RaR, just win.

Took a look at the save, and I'm not so sure about this war. I'm afraid all we're going to accomplish is to make the Inca even bigger. The Inca will GA soon if they aren't already, and I think the Sioux will be pulling units out of the Incan path to attack us.

Ehh ... If the Sioux are getting overrun we should be able to nail that city behind our lines. I was going to question the number of settlers in production, but we can replace the Sioux city by the lake with two of ours. If we get that out of this war it will be a success. Mali HH age well, they will still be useful until someone gets Cuirassiers.

Surprised by everyone having Lit. The AI never seem to research that in my games, although I also tend not to push for it too heavily either. Good to have anyway.

We will have an Iron trade with the Inca expiring on LK's turn. We're at an awkward place on the tech tree since we can't trade for Dark Ages. Might try to let the trade continue (it's lopsided in favor of the Inca) until we finish research on Dark Ages, and then re-negotiate to try to get a tech for it.
 
At the very least we should clear out that city behind our lines. I would like to grab more to the south though.

If we keep our defenses up, we can make it so the SIoux do not attack us. Maybe we should build the defenders first if making Inca stronger is a concern.

I had one game where large numbers of units were coming at me (it was slow terrain), many more than any city could possibly handle. However, as soon as all the nearby cities had 3 defenders the entire stack turned around and left to attack another civ. 3 was trivial vs the offense, but they still all left.

Its the "target weakest city" strategy, but includes the AI cities as well. If we want I suspect we can not see a single attacking unit after the defenses are up.

We are not there yet of course and I am unsure if we need only the front row cities or every single one.

If we do want to do this, I would try 2 spearmen, tg in all cities near the border.

We can then make an attack stack and go for Sioux cities.

The thing is that it takes a long time in RaR to get a city up to speed. It requires windmills, watermills, forges, tax collectors, etc. The more cities we can get in the early game the better off we will be.

Maybe it wasn't the right decision, I certainly wasn't positive that it was and debated it a good bit. I still think we can take advantage of it. I would at like to have 3 or 4 more cities before our GA starts if we can. We would have enough forces by the start of the GA that we can concentrate on Infra in up to double the number of cities we have now and end up farther ahead than we ever possibly could without the war.

Its much easier for us to double in size than the Inca. With the AI not playing RaR to its best benefit that helps us more than the Inca.

I guess my biggest worry is we will end the war after helping the Inca, but before we derive any benefit. That would as you say help the Inca.
 
Yeah, this is a war we should be fighting. If the Inca and Sioux are throwing down the Sioux are going to lose (only one side can build their UU). From there it's only a question of whether we get our piece or not. I just think it might have been better to build the defense 1st, then declare war. I guess you wanted slaves so you pulled the trigger when you did.

Since the Sioux have been fighting the Inca for 10 turns already, we shouldn't be in any real danger of losing a city. The Sioux should be down to trickled attacks so we probably can be patient and solidify the defense before we go on offense. We may even be able to inflict enough damage now to make the Sioux give up that island city.

I actually think, depending on future resource distribution, that we have enough land to compete now, and will certainly be large enough once we take some land from the Sioux. From that point forward we can win wars through superior tactics.
 
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK102-150BC.zip

350 BC
I fire the animators. Animating our moves is just to annoying.

As far as I can tell we gained 3 free workers from this war. We still have cities with warriors as the main defender. This was way to premature for my taste. I am simply going to get us out of it as soon as possible. I grudgingly keep the heavy horseman under construction. I never go to war without all front line cities having at least 2 quality defensive units.
(IT) America and the Sioux embargo us.
We get lucky and survive the island attack and an elephant attack against the spear on a hill. (2-0)


310 BC
(IT) Inca and the Sioux sign a peace treaty. I will be ending the war ASAP.
The spear on a hill kills another elephant. (3-0)
America is clearly in the Middle Ages as they start Voyage of Discovery. That wonder requires Naval Spirit.


290 BC
We kill the elephant that landed behind our lines giving us an elite Heavy Horseman. (4-0)
(IT) We lost a HH to an elephant hiding in Yanktonai. (4-1)


270 BC
We killed a spear, but lost a HH assaulting Yanktonai. The odds of taking out that city lowered. (5-2)
I kill another elephant. (6-2)
(IT) We lost 1 swordsman. (6-3)


250 BC
Our HH retreats at Yanktonai.
(IT) We lost the HH near Yanktonai. (6-4)
We are starting to get overrun with Elephants. We are close to starting to lose cities.


230 BC
The Sioux still won't talk. The stress levels are increasing.
I kill the healthy elephant, and pray the injured ones will retreat. (7-4)
(IT) We lose the spear on the island city. This caused Maraoi to riot. (7-5)
We lost our last HH to an injured elephant. (7-6)
We almost lost a Tahoua and got lucky that the Elephant retreated. The city only had a warrior for defense.

The Sioux complete Sun Tzu.


210 BC
The Sioux will finally talk. I give them $28 and $4/turn to end this now. Tahoua would have fallen next turn with a healthy elephant vs. a warrior.
Despite ending the war I am force to continue on heavy military to rebuild our position.


190 BC
(IT) The Aztec's complete the Colossus.

170 BC
The Inca no longer need iron. :(
It cost an absurd $10/turn to recover sugar. That is barely better then the cost of upping our luxury tax.


==========================

Summary:
The war was a setback. An almost even exchange rate is horrible for deity. IMO this war was a mistake. We lost a lot of turns of development for to little gain. Infrastructure was delayed a long time for nothing. I think our military is worse then the start of the war.


Signed up:
LKendter
T_McC (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Romeothemonk (skip May 7th to May 20th)
Sanabas (indefinite skip)
OPEN SLOT <-- Is anyone interested?

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.
 
I was curious so I tried what I suggested about defense. Basically, I was only attacked on the two turn when my capitol was short a unit. Two Elephants attacked Timbuktu. One lost, one won. I was able to take out the Sioux city in the northern area of our island, build one of our own and get the forbidden palace message.

For the island, I rushed an archer as soon as we got to size 2 and we lost no units. Total losses were one Spear and one Heavy Horse (when attacking the city). I didn't try to kill the elephants as they were in the woods so they just went home to heal.

On TMcC's turn (which I didn't play), he could have waited for our UU and assaulted with 8 or so UU with 4 or so catapults and 2 Spearmen by the end of his turn.

This is basically what I was envisioning.

Some things I did differently:
The spear on the hill with the worker, I moved into Timbuktu after I found it could be attacked.
Went for a spear right away in the Capitol (single turn) so Jenne would have defense. Tahoua didn't need defense BTW. One warrior was fine for it.
On the Island I rushed the archer.

===================================

The position was a lot trickier than I envisioned - doable, but very hard. I guess I should have let the pioneer dude go.

This is what I was trying to explain though. I think if I had played better I could have avoided the two attacks on Timbuktu and only had to deal with the first IBT, the elephant landing from boat and a brave on the island killed by archer). Otherwise the attacks would be at our choosing.

Well maybe we will be in better shape when we get our UU and can try again. I would like to get the last town for our FP.
 
LK102 - ... in the Mali, Mali month of May!

150 BC (0)
Let's see here ... we need two defenders in each of our front-line cities, and some infrastructure. More workers = more better.

Timbuktu ... check. Also with 3 Cats. :goodjob:

We've really gone Slave Market happy here, I'm not sure that is a good thing when we don't have much in the way of native lux. Puts a priority on Bazaars.

Diffa needs mining, already have 1 Spear and a TG. Will let the current Spear finish.

Hmmm ... Nguigmi is going to be a growth or shields city, but not both. Probably a spot for Artillery.

Zinder swapped to Forge, then will do the Shrine. Could also use a Harbor. A Spear is on the way.

Tessaoua could use a Monument. Re-configured to grow in 1, we'll see where the Gov'nor puts the new citizen. Has a Spear, could use a TG on a swap from a front-line city.

Harbor before Counselor in Maraoi is a mistake, but we need the floated-in lux to be able to whip the Counselor. That'll happen on these turns, then the city will probably pull 4-5 spt. City can also use a Spear. (So far we need 2 ... )

Tahoua needs a Monument to get it off of the capital's tiles. Forge is too far along to quit, so we'll hit the Monument later. City is on back lines and can use a TG from a city that gets a Spear. (We're up to needing 3 Spears ... )

Capital is copacetic and will go to 35 spt and a food deficit to bang out the needed 3 Spears.

Jenne won't finish that Spear in time, so swaps to a Forge.

So ... TG from Timbuktu goes to Tahoua, replaced by a new Spear from Gao. Diffa build a Spear in 2, and gets another from Gao. Sends TG to Tessaoua. Third Spear from Gao gets on a boat to go to the island. Then we build more workers and infrastructure for the balance of the round.

Ugh ... we're already paying 8 gpt in unit support. We need economic multipliers. But I'll wait for the units and production boosters to finish.

<Return>

130 BC (1)
Timbuktu: Forge --> Counselor. Then a Harbor will complete in 2.

Nguigmi: Counselor --> Catapult, at "max" trade.

Worker actions will be concentrated around the FP site.

110 BC (2)
Diffa: Spear --> Bazaar, need to get our economy up.
Zinder: Forge --> Harbor. The harbor on the island only works if we have one at home.

Have to turn science down a notch to not go broke.

90 BC (3)
Gao starts a Bazaar. Hopefully this will finish in 3, then we can start clearing some tiles for it. We're stuck at size 7 with the current configuration.

70 BC (4)
Dark Ages comes in, I start us on ... Stirrup, which will take an absurdly long time. Ok, how about 9 turns? I suspect we will be building most of our UU by hand as we really need some infra right now.

Jenne finishes Forge, starts a Shrine so we can get out of MP requirements.

Gao can't make good shields without starving.

50 BC (5)
Diffa is up to 15 spt. Should be able to get more fairly easily.

The Sioux are toting 4 vet ERs on our border. This might get interesting.

30 BC (6)
Nah, just the usual AI wandering around.

Gao completes Bazaar, goes on heavy food and a 3-turn Shrine.

Timbuktu completes Harbor, nets an extra 3 trade from that. Starts a Port.

Maroi builds Harbor, starts Counselor. Think we should let this one build out, and then whip the next thing.

Galley with Spear sets off for the island.

10 BC (7)
Knights Templar has been started.

10 AD (8)
The defense is set, now we need to beef up our economy.

We're getting killed by not being able to irrigate. We've got the ugly situation that Jenne and Gao cannot both eat. I think the next step is to start chopping grassland forest. We should be done with mining tiles we can use real soon.

30 AD (9)

50 AD (10)
Bazaar completes in Diffa. Both Diffa and Gao are working on Water Mills. I figured one more production booster before the science boosters. Bazaars are quite useful, if pricey.

Final Notes:
Ports are +50% taxes + 1 cpt, so let the couple started complete. We're losing a cultural battle at Diffa, so maybe the Water Mill can be swapped for a cultural building. We don't need the disputed tiles, so flip fears are the only concern.

We're paying 11 gpt in unit support, so I didn't add any workers. Forest chops to try to get more food around Gao and Jenne seem like a good idea.

We aren't ready to start a war, but Greebley should be free to build up our military by the end of his turns. We can either build Science, or build military to go pointy-stick the Sioux. I favor the latter. Might even want to slow-play Stirrup, if we want to build HH and cash-upgrade them for the initial burst. I built no HH on my turns.

We can get by with only 10% lux tax. I don't think that was possible until the last turn, so we didn't lose too much money.

No pictures, as nothing has changed. The Inca and Sioux stopped fighting sometime during Lee's turn.
 
Ok, I got it.

I think a build up of military (some infra too) on my and Lee's turns with an attack on TMcC's or my turn after this one makes sense.

Romeo will back by then so the war would probably last at least 20 turns through my and his turn. We should be able to make some progress if we do this.

Sound reasonable?
 
I think the next step is to start chopping grassland forest.
Click to expand...
Please be very stingy with forest chops. We can't replant until well into the IA. RaR seems to hurt for shields, not food, after irrigation.

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
T_McC
Greebley (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (skip May 7th to May 20th)
Sanabas (indefinite skip)
OPEN SLOT <-- Is anyone interested?

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.
 
LKendter said:
Please be very stingy with forest chops. We can't replant until well into the IA. RaR seems to hurt for shields, not food, after irrigation.
Click to expand...
RaR does hurt for food when you get a plains start, like we had, even post-irrigation. We'll likely need to have those forests down to work the mountains in our core. Gao and Jenne have at least two mountains each that are going unused, and will remain so until we can irrigate.

I only want to chop the grass-land forest around Gao and Jenne, not around Timbuktu or Diffa. Timbuktu and Diffa can work their forests, but Gao and Jenne cannot. When we can irrigate, irrigating over our mined plains to work a mined forest is at best a zero-sum game. Getting a few more grassland tiles into play now should allow Gao and Jenne to sustain pop 8+ for additional defense and unit support.
 
Preturn: Change a few things. Disband one of the two useless boats.

Early: The other boat finishes exploring. It is 24 turns to get back. it gets disbanded too.
We get our UU and start Warrior code followed by Vassalage. Both are required for Crops.

Mid: Build a mix of Infra and Units. Do try to get some of our UU.

Late: GLib is built. Now I wish we had gone for it. We are in a tech hole. Hard to compete with 8 cities. Inca own it so we can capture it . It is on the far coast so we probably can't get it soon enough to help.

Notes:
Try to get roads on the borders with our neighbors. This will be important when for war. This is especially true for the forested squares.

Maybe we should go for the Inca instead of the Sioux? I wouldn't mind at least trying for the GLib. We would probably have to wipe out the Inca to grab it. So I am not sure.

LK102_AD250.JPG
 
Waiting for the save....

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
T_McC (on deck)
Greebley
Romeothemonk (skip May 7th to May 20th)
Sanabas (indefinite skip)
OPEN SLOT <-- Is anyone interested?

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.
 
Sucessfully hitched. Checking in, will read the thread while at work on Thursday, can play on Saturday.
 
Looked at the save ... lots of MM possible. Take particular note of the spt and build in the capital.

Nevermind what I said about the Sioux Iron colony. They built a city next to it.

Vassalage is the tech that allows Pikes. Might be a good use of cash to upgrade 1/per border city. I think that would take 180 gold, so not a no-brainer.

We also have a Sugar deal with the Inca that we pretty much have to re-new. Or get a different lux from America.
 
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK102-350AD.zip

250 AD
I see what T_McC is talking about in Gao. 38 shields is a really ugly number. I set it to lose 1 food to speed up the library.

The bad news is Vassalage will do nothing to help us to catch up in tech, as all the AIs know it already.


260 AD
(IT) We have NO chance for a monopoly tech. I start on Theology to get use closer to Crop Rotation. We really need to irrigate our lands.


280 AD
This is bad news.
LAK-813.jpg


I confirm there are no active wars. I dial up the Inca. I drop the luxury tax to $0 to get maximum GPT. If I am wrong the deal below kill our growth.

LAK-814.jpg



It is as I suspected. Thank you for 4 free techs.

LAK-815.jpg



LAK-816.jpg



The Inca will get a GA. It is time for a dog-pile against them. The Sioux join us for $28/turn. I can't get the alliance offer from America. The really bad news with the military alliance is that implies the Sioux are way ahead of us in tech. Thanks to all the Incan cash we now have multiple pikemen.
(IT) I am very glad we make it to pikeman. The Inca lost 3 ER and 3 Inti. Our losses were just 1 pikeman. (6-1)
Diffa holds this turn but is still weak.


290 AD
I kill 1 ER and 1 Inti and get a slave. (7-1)
(IT) I kill 1 Inti and lost 1 HH. (8-2)
India completes Temple of Zeus.


300 AD
Another Inti is killed. (9-2)
(IT) Next up for research is Crop Rotation.
The Aztecs complete Chichen Itza.


310 AD
2 more Inti die, but an HH dies leaving a 1 HP Inti. (11-3)
(IT) I watch an Inti kill a Sioux ER. The Inca are having their GA.


320 AD
Another Inti is killed along with an EK. (13-3).
The HH promotes, but is hurt badly.
(IT) We lost the exposed HH. (13-4)


330 AD
(IT) It hits the fan:
LAK-817.jpg


This sucks, as I now have to waste the GA on 100% military.
(IT) Copernicus is now being worked on.
India completes Circus Maximus.


340 AD
Another Inti is killed giving us a slave. (14-4)
(IT) Diffa continues to be an Inti grave yard as another one dies. (15-4)


350 AD
Once again I kill an Inti. (16-4)

==========================

Summary:
I haven't seen an American unit yet, but you know they are on the way. A stack is moving toward Zinder.

We still have a lot of workers to upgrade to peasant for free.

I have no clue when we will get a good tradable tech, so for now research techs that will help us.


Signed up:
LKendter
T_McC (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Romeothemonk (skip May 7th to May 20th)
Sanabas (DROPPED - this is way beyond his projected out time.)
OPEN SLOT <-- Is anyone interested?

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.
 
We seem to be having a rash of early war games. If we don't declare war the AI does.

I am glad my emphasis was on Military on my last turn. The capitol spent its turns cranking out our UU.

The war with America is not very happy making. I am thinking that peace ASAP is best though there is a risk America will pull in the Sioux against us. I like the idea of continuing the war on the Inca until we capture the GLib, but we don't have to decide for 20 turns on whether that is a good idea or not.

Did we get ships that can try to cross the ocean in the 4 techs? I forget when we can get that.
 
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