LK136, Monarch, Byzantine

[Belial]

That was indeed my fault. I posted a note about and my forethought was an unsettled decision of where the HE might have went.

Had I thought about it for more than 3 seconds, I would have settled him considering that the Taoist holy city would likely also get a shrine and income modifiers and therefor not always buliding military unlike Nicea. My apologies again on that.

Why are we giving into Joao? Ragnar is a good friend, we want him on our side all the time. I want him to war Incans and he can do that with relative easy bribing. Saladin is not to so easy to bribe on the other hand. We don't want anymore negative modifiers from Incans than absolutely necessary. I would have taken "You brought a war ally against us!" instead of "You refused to stop trading with our worst enemy!" and "You brought a war ally against us".

Just remember, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. We want to war Joao, Joao's enemy is Ragnar - we should be friendly with Ragnar. The Incan's enemy is Joao, we don't like Joao and hence, Incan should be friendly with us.

Not that I think we will always maintain a friendly relationship with the Incans, but for now we want to take things one step at a time.

*Edit* No rush on the save, a good pace is always good, but good play over fast time is more acceptable, nay? I generally spend close to a half hour to a hour on the inherited turn and the final turn of my set.

 

[LKendter]

I generally spend close to a half hour to a hour on the inherited turn and the final turn of my set.

I've had early peaceful turns where the inherited turn was almost as long as the 15!

 

[Belial]

As for the save, I would drop research down to 60%. We'll lose a turn on research but we'll want the money for upgrades and/or possible events.

I would also swap research for priesthood (We'll want a great prophet or two for the future) and likely never research engineering but trade for it instead. The war on Joao will be absolute slaughter with cataphracts against archers. Siege in this case is also moot and will take much to long to make for the bonuses to kick in compared to spies. I expect Joao to have a very small espionage pool also with the war on Ragnar which makes them prime pickings for war. Instead of engineering, I would take education and once we see an AI start teching that, we could tech liberalism for the free tech (we should still be able to get it, we have some solid teching powre now). While also picking up banking, gunpowder and replaceable parts (in no particular order) and use the free tech on rifling (provided we get the chance).

Nicomdia should grab the cows from Thessalonica also. It can grow faster than Thessalnoica so the rewards pay off quicker. After the library, it should get a forge to make use of the whip better.

The nice thing about having global theatres in coastal cities is the ability to whip transport units as well. The war with Lincoln to finish him off will be much easier. (Only to remove the -happy "We yearn to join the motherland", not that -happy is a major deal in New York, but getting the fish and selling it and the power of Sushi when it is available).

I would whip the forge in Adrianople the following turn too, it's working subpar tiles. This place will also be heavily whipped for specialist bulidings but should only do so when the tiles whiped are mainly sea tiles.

New Boston needs a missionary to get the fish online sooner. The quicker those get online, the quicker we can whip it into shape.

We've also overlooked a mine at Constantinople for a long, long time now. That 'bare' tile still needs a mine. Unless we are waiting to see what we lucked or 'unlucked' out on?

The Incans have addtional happy resources available also. While we need health moreso than happy, the added happy can combat whiipping the unhealthy and the almighty draft when we have it available. I also think it would benefit us the most to improve this relationship for the short-term. Long-term, he undoubtly will become an enemy as a potential player to win the game.

Ragnar has 160g for sale. Literature can be sold to him as the Incans own the great library. Hopefully that will improve the relations a little also.

When revolting out of HR, just remember we're going to lose some +relations from favorite civics too. Mainly with the two most important people we want to be friends with - Ragnar and Incans.

If it is decided to revolt out HR, then sour the relations with Araba and the Incans now too. I would make Saladin cancel deals with the Incans. Our front city with the Incans will be our heaviest military producer as well, so it's not a huge gamble to anger them. I wouldn't go this route, but it is certainly a viable option.

The more religous wars that are stirred over there, the longer life our cataphract will have and the quicker the domination capped will be won with superiour units and numbers.

*Edit*

If it is decided to revolt out HR, then sour the relations with Araba and the Incans now too.

Should be: "If it is decided to revolt out of HR, then sour the relations between Arabia and the Incans now too. (No reason to mess up our relations with Saladin)

 

[Kodii]

Hooray! I'm back. I need to reinstall CIV, so don't put me back in the roster yet.

 

[Kodii]

Hooray! I'm back. I need to reinstall CIV, so don't put me back in the roster yet.

False alarm. My computer is back but now CIV won't run. Keep me on permaskip until I can get this figured out. Sorry

 

[playshogi]

New Boston needs a missionary to get the fish online sooner. The quicker those get online, the quicker we can whip it into shape.

Yes, but I thought Adrianople, Antioch, and Nicea had higher priorities for the missionaries. I was hoping NB would get our religion for free.

We've also overlooked a mine at Constantinople for a long, long time now. That 'bare' tile still needs a mine. Unless we are waiting to see what we lucked or 'unlucked' out on?

I finally got a worker over there. I didn't build anymore workers on my turns, either.

Finally, I was worried that turning down Joao's requests 2 times in a row might cause him to attack us before we were ready to attack him. I already had refused to join his war with Ragnar and he went from pleased to cautious, so I agreed to cancel trades with Ragnar. To avoid the negative modifier with Inca, maybe we should have cancelled open borders with Joao long ago, then maybe the issue would never have come up?

 

[LKendter]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/1898/LK136_AD-1350.CivBeyondSwordSave


1275 AD
I cancel the workers building a farm by Adrianople. That city is already +7 food above food lost due to health. We need the cottage income a lot more then excess food.

I can't fix it now, but I wish I had discussed the replacement for Boston. I was expecting the city one north to avoid wasting what little grassland is available there.

I wake up the general that should *not* have been sleeping, and settler him in Nicaea.

1285 AD
We just popped a copper by Constantinople.


=======================

New Updates
In case you are wondering why the Jewish Monastery in Washington - we are in danger of losing two more seafood when Atlanta expands its borders. We need to speed up the culture being built in the city. Keeping whipping this city every odd turn. I've got several more military units from it just during my round.


Roster
LKendter
Speedster (currently playing)
Kodii (Please update when your computer is back)
Belial (on deck?)
Playshogi


Remember 15 peace (including phony wars) / 10 heavy war turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.

Win target: open.

Planned wars - in the far future - Portugal

 

[Speedster]

Got it for tonight.

I am at work and have not been able to look at the save.

Which research route did we follow?

 

[Belial]

We are taking the education route. I would also then research most of liberalism but not all of it (leaving one turn or so). Likely going gunpowder next and trying to use that in a banking trade and start up replaceable parts.

Montezuma declared on Incans yet again and I'm sure the Incans will build some more wonders during this war. I don't expect Montezuma to last too long while Saladin and Incans are both at war with him, but never know with that military nut.

We can whip some in Adrianople too, sea tiles are not the greatest tiles to be working and I would whip the harbor next (more +gpt to gain than a market and certainly can not turn the health away).

Again, I wouldn't bother with siege for the Joao war. Just use spies in heavy culture cities, which we should also work on next set too.

There are some more seafood islands to our north, which is good. At some point, we should consider removing Lincoln altogether to further add the seafood count. Sushi just keeps looking stronger.

We're also missing one courthouse somewhere to unlock the forbidden palace. Not that I think we will be building that until we expand our lands into Joao territory, but something to keep in mind.

The placement of New Boston is not ideal, but can't change that much now. One north loses the dyes, but three additional sea food resources counter the loss in six gold.

 

[LKendter]

War with Joao is getting closer - I got several of our UU now sitting in our HE city.

 

[Speedster]

Turns played and we are in war..

I followed Belial's good advice and spent quite some time on the IHT.
I started by removing my old irrigation signs
Education is due in 15 turns.
I noticed Constantinople was working an engineer. I changed this to a scientist, shaving a turn off education. I also worked a sea tile instead of the plains forest tile to grow a wee bit faster (9 turns) plus generating some coin.
I also mm'd a few other cities to get more commerce.
This allowed me to up science to 60% at break even.
Education due in 12 turns.

I had an ominous feeling before pressing enter. Just waiting for Saladin to ask us to DOW on Montezuma...

Anyway:

Turn 1, 1355 AD
I open borders with Ragnar. I also sell him drama for 300 gold.
Saladin captures Tlatelolco. Poor Montezuma..
The monastery in Washington is whipped.


Turn 2, 1360 AD
The monastery is followed by a library. Not so much for science but for cultural output.


Turn 3, 1365 AD
HC cancels the pigs for dyes deal.
The library in Washington is whipped and Washington can go back to unit whipping.


Turn 5, 1375 AD
Ragnar declares war on Joao.....


Turn 6, 1380 AD
Saladin cancels the Sugar for clams deal.


Turn 9, 1395 AD
Tenochtitlan falls to Saladin and Montezuma becomes a vassal to Arabia.
I 1-pop whip the forge in Nicomedia.
We are back to pleased with HC.


Turn 11, 1405 AD
Ragnar asks us to join the war with Joao......
This put me in severe agony. I know the LK house rules prohibit any war declarations unless there is a discussion beforehand or it is clearly a phony war. However, this was a very good opportunity to achieve two things: improve relations with Ragnar and put forward a claim on Portugals cities, a thing we have been discussing for awhile.
I had to leave the computer for awhile, thinking, before I decided to follow my gut feeling and accept Ragnars plea for help.
War declared on Joao....
We also learned Education this turn. I set research onto Liberalism.


Turn 12, 1410 AD
HC is elected leader of the apostolic palace. This may become a nuisance to us.


Turn 13, 1415 AD
Our spy fails to kick of a city revolt in Ainu, so I have to rely on more traditional brute force. Luckily, I had decided a few turns ago to build a Trebuchet. A suicide mission knocked away some health from the two defending longbows. Our first cataphract won at ~50% odds whereas the second lost at more healthy odds
The rest is pure mop up though and Ainu is ours.
I 1-pop whip the forge in NY.


Turn 14, 1420 AD.
We get an event in Constantinople which adds a +1 food to the grocer
Constantinople is at happy cap, so I hire another scientist to halt growth somewhat.


Turn 15, 1425 AD.
We have a stack outside Leiria and a spy inside the city. Unfortunately, Joao is likely do add a few more defenders in the IHT, so the stack may not be sufficient.
Liberalism is due in 7 turns.
I also made a settler during my turnset, figuring we may need one for "combat purposes" or to settle "crab island" up north. It is sitting in Constantinople. There is also a galley at Constantinople, in case we want to go for Crab island.
Adrianople is unhappy. It should go away in 5 turns, when the whip anger disappears.

I utterly failed to re-negotiate the resource deals with Saladin and HC. Both wants copper for their wares (pigs and sugar) something i was not prepared to give them.


The save

 

[LKendter]

Planned wars - in the far future - Portugal

Ragnar asks us to join the war with Joao......
This put me in severe agony. I know the LK house rules prohibit any war declarations unless there is a discussion beforehand or it is clearly a phony war.

This squeaks by as I did mention in the summary.

However, I didn't think of the "far future" as the next turn set...

 

[Belial]

Interesting.

Got it.

Will see how far I can push us in 10t.

 

[Belial]

Inherited turn: Ainu came with a granary and a forge - not bad. Although it stole the copper mine from Nicea which I swap back to Nicea. I swap Constantinople from an university to a maceman. We will want continued military buildup from more than a couple cities I suspect. I also hire an engineer here. New Boston gets a granary whipped (not an efficient whip as the time for that had passed). I swap the cows from Thessalonica to Nicomdea promoting quicker growth to a smaller city. I fire the spy in Adrianople and hire an engineer to furrther production of this hammer-poor city. With Washington as far from the front as it is, I would be training cataphracts from here to get them into the action sooner. It should also be whipping units nearly every other turn. Lastly, I swap Nicea from longbowman to a cataphract.

Let's see what kind of trades are available now...
Suger and pig from Saladin for copper and clams.
And that's it - can't get a worthwhile deal from Incans for wines.

No one has education, so I drop the slider to 50% and only -4 gpt. I plan to be upgrading some units.

Turn 306: As expected, Joao puts more units into the city and with the spy being caught, I pull the small stack out. Better safe than sorry. I upgrade 2 CR3 swords to maces and will soon have another once the stack returns to the city.

Turn 307: Troops are back and last CR3 sword is promoted. The Incans also have nationalism - as if they need a GA with Taj. Constantinople finishes the maceman and starts a spy. I would like to keep at least four spies on the military front all the time. In case we lose one, it's not the end of a military push. Cataphract whipped in Washington.

Turn 308: On a war set? Yeah, when not properly setup for it.

Turn 309: Nicea: cataphract -> spy. Interesting. Joao emptied out most of his city D at Leiria to make an assault on Ainu. We easily mop it up with cataphracts and with some health, we should be able to make a trip to Leiria. Spies should arrive just in time as well.

Turn 310: Nicomedia: spy -> courthouse. Constantinople: spy -> spy. Incans complete Angkor Vat. They will be a cultural victor if we let them get that far. Ainu gets a hippodrome whipped. Saladin now has education. Liberalism will have to suffice with a nationalism pull.

Turn 311: Ainu: hippodrome -> colloseum. Nicea: spy -> treb. Trebs for collateral damage. Spies are en'route. Washington whips another cataphract. I finally remove the University from the queue in Constantinople. I had to remember at the end of each turn to put something else in but we clearly do not need a university right now. I start another spy in Constantinople.

Turn 312: Adrianople starts the national epic. Place units in front of Leiria.

Turn 313: Liberalism is in and nationalism is selected. New york finishes its spy at long last and has a harbor queued up. I queue up gunpowder for the tech-order. I then trade the Incans education for banking and theology, 780g and a world map. I then revolt us into theocracy and mercantilism. I then reconfigure cities to meet the newly acquired specialists. I chose mercantilism because everyone else in the world is in it so mine as well benefit from it. We finally have enough spies to continue this war in an acceptable low-siege warfare. I set Leiria into revolt and we capture it with 0 casualties. Washington whips another cataphract. We also gain another great general who is sent to Nicea.

Turn 314: We get enough WW to justify the slider to be raised to 10%. Niceea: treb -> treb. I also asked the Incans to stop trading with Saladin. It does not affect our relationship with Saladin as he will still be friendly, but it will produce tension between the two leading religious factors and that would be good for us. Even better if Saladin decides to march his camel archers right into the Incans. I notice some more tiny sloppy play. We have fish that was cultured in Constantinople and we should get a workboat over there so I switch Constantinople from a treb to a workboat.

Turn 315: Spies are sent towards the next city. Washington whips a cataphract (sounds like a broken record). Thessalonica gets an university whipped (mostly due to poison). Nicomedia gets a courthouse whipped.

Addiontal notes: Be sure to adjust specialists as they become available to spies. We will want the espionage bonus for the duration of this war. The quicker we obtain them, the faster we can push onto each city. The trebs are being made for when Joao does have pikemen. The cataphracts still have better odds in open grounds (ie: a 0% culturarlly defended city), with melee promotions, but just to be safe, toss a few collateral trebs at the city to weaken it.

We also will have pigs online once Leiria comes out of revolt and expands. We should then renegotiate trade deals with Saladin. We likely can sell the fish once we get it online in Constantinople too.

I also did not settle the island city to our north. I don't think we can afford it at this time. After the war is done and we refocus our economy, we should then settle those islands and probably remove Lincoln.

We finally have an acceptable power rating as well. I don't suspect anyone will declare on us the rest of this game. However, we still need to keep in mind that the civ out ahead right now is the Incans. Anything we can do to slow them down is a bonus - weather it be directly by us or indirectly influenced by us (ie: having them cancel deals with Saladin). It would make things a lot easier if we declared on Incans and they were alreadly slightly beatup.

Ah, and the poor Vikings, well they did little but distract the Portugeese on this set which probably helped abit. Needless to say, he's not making much progress and I suspect he will make peace once the small stack he has left outside of Coimbra is gone.

We can actually consider switching out of HR after this war too. Enough positive modifiers with the Vikings should allow us to do so. We may drop to cautious with the Incans, but that's okay as they will clearly be one of the forth-coming targets.

Nicea can actually train some city D fodder now - longbowmen and crossbowmen are both good units to leave in a city. Our offensive military should be strong enough for the rest of this war.

 

[LKendter]

New Updates
The good news is the culture in Washington is paying off. Our control of the seafood tiles is clearly up since my turn. To bad there isn't another culture building to whip.

The bad news is our economy royally bites with just 20% science at positive cash flow. We really need some AIs to exit mercantilism, or we will be forced to end the war with Portugal. We don't have a lot of scientists helping this rate either.
So far we haven't gained much - just a pig resource so that we can eventually stop the Saladin trade. Our goals need to be gems and gold so that we actually gain something worthwhile from the war.


Roster
LKendter (on deck)
Speedster
Kodii (Please update when your computer is back)
Belial
Playshogi (currently playing)


Remember 15 peace (including phony wars) / 10 heavy war turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.

Win target: open.

Planned wars - Portugal, sooner then planned.

 

[Belial]

We also gained two holy cities that will need some TLC. Being spiritual makes that less of a pain, though. Toss in OR and ship some missionaries out.

Speaking of which, we should consider getting temples into Adrianople which can be whipped and have the overflow put into the national epic.

Can use the longbowmen whip with HR to offset the unhappy to build it quicker as well.

*Edit*

Ragnar just got gunpowder the last turn as well. Switching research to a more economical route would be the better move now. Printing press or economics would work fine.

Also, getting a bank in Thessalonica will produce a nice sum of coin.

*ReEdit*

Can drop the luxury slider to 0 and just whip a happy building in Constantinople instead. Military is not needed as badly to justify it staying at 10%.

 

[playshogi]

Turn 0 - I remove the 10% because it costs 30pt and only benefits 1 citizen in Constantinople. Assign a priest in Adrianople and switch production to buddhist temple to reduce NE build time. I load the settler and a longbow and move toward Crab+Fish city, but will only found the city if the AI attempts to land there. Oporto is the next target. Oporto has gold in the 3rd ring. How many cities do we want to capture from Joao? To grab gems also, we might have to capture/raze all of his cities on the mainland. I can trade copper to Inca for wine+gold. I don't see what good copper is to him since he's got iron? I cancel corn for 2pt deal with Ragnar and then sell him clams for 4pt.

Turn 318 - Trade Education to Ragnar for Gunpowder + map + 80

Turn 319 - Saladin & Inca both end all of our pt trades and I vote for Inca to win Apostolic election. I trade ivory to Saladin for 9pt.

Turn 320 - As expected, Inca is the Buddhist pope. (He was the only candidate.) Alarmingly, it looks like he has the votes to win the game. With Ragnar's votes, he will have 81%.

Oporto is captured with many buildings intact.

I halt play here, with 5 turns remaining, to get advice on what, if anything, to do about Inca. Do we attempt to massively spread Buddhism within our borders and convert to it, so we can block Inca? We only have 1 city with Buddhism and that's Adrianople.

 

[playshogi]

Never mind, false alarm. I counted 6 voters, so I thought everyone had Buddhism, but forgot about Lincoln. He doesn't have Buddhism, so apostolic victory is off the table unless, Inca is smart enough to spread Buddhism to him. Is he smart enough?

 

[playshogi]

Also, couldn't we found the crab city and immediately give independence to the colony? That way we get the crab without 'paying' for it. Also, give it Judaism and insure another civ without Buddhism. BTW, Inca and Lincoln do not have open borders, so Buddhism can't spread there, at the moment.

 

[Belial]

I noticed this too, but I don't think buddhism will ever get to Lincoln.

I would not be against spreading Buddhism either, though. Just to negate the effect the AP may have - especially when we do go to war with them.

The two cities we may consider taking from Joao is his capital, which contains the collosus (albeit, not going to last forever) and then the gems city. Both cities will have a good source of income. We can then consider building forbidden palace in either Ainu or Oporto.

After that, we can just vassalize him and continue on our way into domination. Banks also got put into the queue, correct? A couple of those should put our income back into acceptable sum.

*Edit*

The easiest way to get buddhism around quickly is to spread it to Washington and have it whip the needed culture bulidings and then missionaries every other turn.