LK147 - world map, China

[ToddMarshall]

It's going to be a non issue. I counted turns and tiles last night, and if we skim off 4 workers in the next few turns, we can have a railnet completed in about 10 turns. This is why I suggest we attack india at roughly that point.

Lee, I would not spend ALL the cash immediately. I will bet you a lux, WM, 47g, and 237gpt that India beats us to Electricity by several turns, and we'll want to buy it immediately (and probably trade it to someone for Industrialization so we can build factories) and start on Sci Meth, which we'll also probably have to buy the rest of at 2nd, or maybe get as a concession for peace.

It appears to me that India is really running away in tech, even compared to the other leaders, and may be our ONLY threat for ToE, but will be a SIGNIFIGANT one. Lets hope someone is building Sufferage in a really good city so it doesn't cascade into ToE. Then we'd have the only prebuild around, with our Army.

One other thing to note: Persia has an MPP with Egypt. Persia is lagging in tech. If we can buy Persia to to our side, they will probably drag Egypt in vs India for us. No guarantees, but, might be worth the risk.

 

[CKS]

I've played a couple of turns. India has declared on us. I plan to see who I can drag into the war along with us, but I'm going to stop for the night here. Let me know any thoughts you have.

I'm glad I upgraded a bunch of spears, but I hadn't really started reshuffling units, with rifles going toward the borders and MDI going as MPs. At least we didn't get caught with a lot of troops in the open, and our returning army has just returned.

I realized that we have a serious problem with culture in this game, as the culture limit is 100k. Egypt and India are far out in front of everyone else. We'll likely need to target Egypt after India.

Turn Log:
Turn 0:
Hire scientists at Lonely Island. Move cav plus rifle to Anyang. Upgrade a bunch of units. Swap some workers to rails. Traded for Australia's cash, picked up a bunch of cash for maps.
IBT: Russia and Germany start Universal Suffrage.

Turn 1: Rail, move troops home.
IBT: Golden Age ends. Russia asks for MPP; I decline.

Turn 2: Rail, move troops home. MM a bit due to loss of golden age. Rush some libraries and universities.
NOTICE THAT THE CULTURE LIMIT IS 100K. India and Egypt have about 50k, the next civs are at 30k. If we put a dent in India, we'll have to go after Egypt pretty quickly to avoid a 100k loss.
IBT: India declares war. They capture a worker, kill 2 cavs, lose a couple of cavs, and redline a few more. Iroquois demand medicine; I give it so that we don't end up with them allying with our neighbors.

 

[LKendter]

We still need to finish electric power and scientific method. Please cancel the army build for now - that is our only decent place holder to build ToE which will be a key to winning this. We really want Hoover's Dam.

Wake that galley in Anyang and take more cavalry over. We want to take advantage of the chance to get Indian of the island. Please build a settler nearby, as iron city needs to be razed and replaced.

Egypt needs to be on our side. For ~$50/turn they will ally with us. We want the top dogs beating each other up. Not to mention losing our coal source right now would suck BIG time. We need to keep the rail net building as I've notice multiple spots where India crossed our borders.
The other key civ for me is Persia. This is mainly because I see way too many Persian troops along our borders.
Nothing else matters for workers besides the thin-rail net.
No more building rushes please - any spare should speed up getting troops out.


Am I right that this is an incomplete turn? We should be able to kill a decent number of those India troops.

 

[ToddMarshall]

An alliance with Egypt is available for about a grand. The downside of that is, well, it's a grand we could use. Persia will declare for slightly less. Babylon will declare for Nationalism.

Alternatively, Cleo will pay us 55gpt for an MPP, and X-Man will grant us one (has no gpt)

The downside there is they are both at war with Australia, who is paying us over 200gpt and a lux, and both have colonies near Australia, especially Egypt. Persia has only one recent, out of the way one.

Because Egypt has multiple colonies near Australia, and has been at war with them for so long, and because they are likely our next target, I would be very leery of offering Egypt an MPP. Inestead, I would suggest we do this, in this order:

We don't want to lose the money she is paying us for iron. She's in less wars, and is more likely to charge us for an MPP if we ask her AFTER we ask

He may not give it for free, but I bet it doesn't cost us much. Getting an MPP with him will bring Cleo in on our side on the interturn, because the MPP with Persia will trigger and bring them in,

Finally, I'd suggest we make this deal

That should get everyone in our area that is a threat to us on our side, and minimizes the risk that we'll be asked to declare war on Australia, at least in the next several turns. There is a VERY minimal risk that India bribes Egypt on the interturn, but they only have Communism to offer, and the AI doesn't like to give up government techs, especially at second.

I think the odds of India brining in Cleo this turn are actually zero because of the AI turn order.

EDIT: If we don't want to give MPP's because of the risk factor, there is still no need to buy Cleo in. Persia will declarfe for less, and his MPP with Cleo will breing her in. I'd still buy Babylon, but just ignore Russia if we don't want to give an MPP

 

[CKS]

We still need to finish electric power and scientific method. Please cancel the army build for now - that is our only decent place holder to build ToE which will be a key to winning this. We really want Hoover's Dam.

I left it as an army build for the moment, but I'll count cities before I continue it. We definitely will want an army prebuild for the ToE.

Wake that galley in Anyang and take more cavalry over. We want to take advantage of the chance to get Indian of the island. Please build a settler nearby, as iron city needs to be razed and replaced.

Definitely.

Egypt needs to be on our side. For ~$50/turn they will ally with us. We want the top dogs beating each other up. Not to mention losing our coal source right now would suck BIG time. We need to keep the rail net building as I've notice multiple spots where India crossed our borders.
The other key civ for me is Persia. This is mainly because I see way too many Persian troops along our borders.
Nothing else matters for workers besides the thin-rail net.
No more building rushes please - any spare should speed up getting troops out.

Yes, definitely Egypt and Persia need to be on our side.
Rushing science buildings when we had lots of cash and were involved in a peaceful tech race made sense. It would be stupid now. I'll also be evaluating other infrastructure builds to see about turning them into military ones.
I think all workers are currently railing.

Am I right that this is an incomplete turn? We should be able to kill a decent number of those India troops.

Yes, I've done nothing this turn. Last night I was plenty awake to deal with rail building, but not at all alert enough to deal with the Indian invasion. Taking out the invading troops should be easy this turn. It is then next couple of turns that make me uneasy.

MPPs make me uneasy; I'll see what I can do to buy alliances and take advantage of AI MPPs.

 

[LKendter]

Another advantage of getting those two Indian cities in Japan - there borders have expanded, so that is part of Indian culture going to 100K. Two less cities will help. If we get a few ships going, we may be able to steal a few islands from Japan. The AI tends to be defend islands light IIRC.

 

[ToddMarshall]

I counted cities on my turn. As I stated in my report, we're currently short of having enough to build an Army after the one you've started. IIRC we need 2 more than we have, so please be careful with that.

I really don't think we'll have all that much trouble with India if we ally Egypt, Persia, and Babylon. They'll be getting attacked from all sides, and the AI does really poorly with multiple front wars. More trouble that we'd have had had we been the aggressor with a railnet, yeah, but I'm certinally not afraid of fighting them one on one, much less one on four.

 

[CKS]

Turn 0:
Hire scientists at Lonely Island. Move cav plus rifle to Anyang. Upgrade a bunch of units. Swap some workers to rails. Traded for Australia's cash, picked up a bunch of cash for maps.
IBT: Russia and Germany start Universal Suffrage.

Turn 1: Rail, move troops home.
IBT: Golden Age ends. Russia asks for MPP; I decline.

Turn 2: Rail, move troops home. MM a bit due to loss of golden age. Rush some libraries and universities.
NOTICE THAT THE CULTURE LIMIT IS 100K. India and Egypt have about 50k, the next civs are at 30k. If we put a dent in India, we'll have to go after Egypt pretty quickly to avoid a 100k loss.
IBT: India declares war. They capture a worker, kill 2 cavs, lose a couple of cavs, and redline a few more. Iroquois demand medicine; I give it so that we don't end up with them allying with our neighbors.

Turn 3:
Ally Persia for 50 gpt. Make the Babylon deal.
Hovd: Bombard cavs; e sword kills one. Upgrade rest of catapults in Hovd. Sword armies kill 3 cavs.
Island: Cav retakes worker, kills rifle.
Mandalgovi: Bombard. Esword kills elephant. 2 E cavs kill cavs. Cav kills cav, promotes to elite. Cav dies redlining cav. Lose 3 cavs killing stack of 6 cavs. Cav army kills 2 rifles.
New Darhan: Cav dies to 3/5 elephant. Cavs kill 2 elephants.
All Indian troops in our territory are gone. There are lots of stacks of slow movers (mostly) covered by rifles near the border. I hope to get some cannon hits on them next turn.
IBT: Trade embargo with Americans. India pulls Russians into the war. Egypt declares on Indians. Indians preferentially attack Persians, leaving us alone except for promoting one conscript rifle to 3/3. I probably missed some stuff here, as my 4-year old dumped a bucket of water on top of his dresser. France comes back to renegotiate horses; they can't afford much, but nobody else needs them except the Americans, so I keep trading. Russians start US, again.

Turn 4:
Argentina has cash, so trade steam power for 156 gpt, 112 g, dyes, map.
At Chittagong: Cav armies kill 3 vet rifles. Vet cav redlines reg rifle. E cav kills MDI. Vet cav dies, 2nd vet cav kills rifle, razes city - 525 g, 5 workers, cannon.
Karakorum is gone; preparing to resettle that area and Chittagong. Sending cannons and more cav to the island.
Trade silks for spices with Iroquois.
IBT: France and Egypt go to war. Argentina and Persia go to war. Elephant kills an MDI, Rifle kills the cav that razed Chittagong. Cav dies to rifle on island, Elephant and cav die to rifle covering Karakorum settler. Persians ally with Russians against us. Americans go to war with India, Russia and Egypt ally vs. France. Russia and India start US.

Turn 5:
Sword army kills immortals. We will lose Kaifeng; there are more than 30 Persian units next to it. Decide to abandon it, pillaging roads from it into our territory.
Sword army kills pike, MDI kills Immortals. Cav kills Pcav. Ecav kills elephant. Ecav kills longbow - Leader . Leader goes to Shanghai to wait for now. I'd like the FP, but don't build it in deference to Lee's wishes. Another option would be an army, and disbanding a sword army so we can prebuild later. I'll sit on it, though, since there will be few elite victories in the near future.
Weak cav army kills redlined rifle on the way to barracks. Cav redlines but kills 2/4 musket. Other cav army kills 3 Pknights. Cav kills musket, MDI scratches Immortals. Cav kills it.
IBT: Russia declares on Germans, Songhai on Babs. Cav dies on island, rifles pillage. Persians kill pike, advance in huge SOD. Egypt declares on Russians.

Turn 6: Buy electricity for 1989 g +map from Germany.
Bomb Persian stack.
Bomb Jaipur. Cavs kill vet and reg rifle, then die twice on conscript rifle, then die on cav. Finally kill cav, last rifle; raze Jaipur.
Build Kaifeng. Bomb rifles, kill one.
Kill 2 rifles by Mandalgovi.
IBT: Venezuela is bribed into war by India; we lose gems. Sell maps to Songhai. Extend peace with iroquois. Australia and Germany make peace. Several civs ally vs Zulu. Songhai declare on Germans. Indians rebuild Chittagong to the south.

Turn 7:
Cav army destroys Chittagong.
Build New Beijing. Cav army kills 3 rifles and a cav. Sword army kills MDI and elephant.
Build New Shanghai. Kill rifle on island.
Bomb Persian half-stack. Kill all but longbow.
Bomb Indian rifles.
Kill the Persian rifle that killed the invading Indian cav.
Kill rifle, longbow.
IBT: Egypt and Persia ally vs Argentina.

Turn 8:
Finish railnet.
Bomb Persian stack. Kill about half of them.


I'm stopping here. We have coal and the island iron. The Persian threat appears to be over. We should now be able to make significant progress against the Indians. We are 20 turns from Scientific Method. I have not traded electricity so as to reduce competition for ToE. We have a leader in Shanghai.

 

[LKendter]

Starting playing, but war in the industrial age on this map is a time-suck.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Speaking of time suck, this week coming up is going to be a time suck for me personally (things will be better for a couple weeks after this one), so I'm probably going to have to play my turn over two to three days or a skip. If you can wait till Thursday night/Friday morning for the turn to be posted, I'll be fine. Hope that is ok.

 

[LKendter]

1180 AD (0)
This could bite us back, but I give Argentina electricity for industrialization, $150, $32/turn an WM. I also pay him $14/turn to ally again Persia
tyring to protect our income.

Iron goes to Australia for WM, $12/turn and $3.

I give France nationalism to ally against India and $17/turn.

I give the Aztec $50/turn to turn on India. This is a partial refund of the GPT they are sending us per turn.

Our leader rushes a library in New Beijing to get expanded borders ASAP to protect our coal.
(IT) More silly cross sea wars begin.
A real war happens with Iroquois vs. Venezuela.
India lands two units in Japan, and Chinan looks in trouble with the best unit a spear.


1190 AD (1)
The RnG screws us when an elite rifle can't kill 1 HP cavalry. However, it gives it back when a sword kills it generating another leader. Canton has
no shields in the box, so it gets a rushed factory. We need to start upping production.

I wipe out the Persian stack of junk near Hovd at minimal cost.

I send France Steam Power for $118 and $107/T. I then refund $18/t to get Joan to declare on Persia.
(IT) Chinan falls to India. There was nothing I could do to fix this one.
Even more silly cross seas wars begin.
America joins the dogpile against us.
This IT takes forever with the number of war declaration notices.


1200 AD (2)
I wipe an Indian stack that just crossed our border.


1210 AD (3)
We capture Ganges and get $292. With no critical resources, I prefer to capture at this point. This is quickly behind the lines, and this is how we need to work on India.
We capture New Bengal (Japan) and get $296 plus a worker.
Indian is nice enough to let us capture one cannon. We can use more of those.

We can get peace with Persia if needed. I will hold off for the moment to see if we can get a better deal - $100 isn't much of anything.
(IT) The silly war declarations keep appearing.
Babylon trade embargoes us.


To be continued tomorrow ...
These turns are killers!

 

[vmxa]

Lurker:
This caught my eye:

"I send France Steam Power for $118 and $107/T. I then refund $18/t to get Joan to declare on Persia."

"We can get peace with Persia if needed."

Was the French deal an alliance? Would you not break a deal, if you get peace with Persia now? It is late and I am sleepy, so I could be lost. lol

 

[ToddMarshall]

Can't open the save presently, just have a minute before leaving for work, but, Lee, has anyone completed Sufferage yet? If not, consider rushing it or it's going to cascade into ToE... If we nuke sufferage, then we can rush afactory and army prebuild ToE and almost assuredly get it.

Also, I'm with vmxa. I know our rep is busted, but I'm going to honor all aliances unless told otherwise, so no peace with Persia or India for 20 turns now.

 

[LKendter]

I was just looking to see if Persia would talk. I guess I worded that wrong with the comments I got.

Nobody has complete Suffrage yet, as we get the option to build it. I have a factory I/P in Beijing. When workers aren't railing a front line tile, I am improving the shield count in Beijing. I've gotten some railed, but it seems like every turn has at least one or two tiles needing rails. For example: Ganges already has a rail line to it. Trying to also run rails toward India to start breaking there heartland cities. Plus a few stray tiles to deal with Persia.
I am peeling a few more workers from our weaker shield cities. We need more production, and some cities will benefit from railed food tiles. Even if all they do is hire more scientists from the food it is worth it.

We can't rush Suffrage with a leader as it is a great wonder. I already checked that.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Did that change with conquests expansion? Maybe only scientific leaders can rush great wonders now? Is that how it works?

 

[CKS]

Yes, in Conquests MGL can only rush small wonders. You need SGL to rush great wonders.

 

[vmxa]

Lurker:

Unless you are the AI, they can rush Great Wonders with an MGL.

 

[LKendter]

1220 AD (4)
Chinan is ours again along with $297 and some Indian ships sinking in port.
(IT) We are still getting stupid overseas wars.
Now Persia lands by Chinan. What is so great about that city?


1230 AD (5)
India may be worn out. I only have to pick off a few stray units.
(IT) I want what the Zulu are smoking. They think we will give them a tech just for WM.
Every time I think there can't be any more possible wars, they still keep coming.


1240 AD (6)
We capture Hyderabad and get $471, 3 workers, and a canon.
(IT) The crazy war declarations still are going.
India throws several units vs. Hyderabad, but only kills a conscript.
France declares war on Germany - this one should actually burn AI units.


1250 AD (7)
We capture Dacca and $432.


Summary:
You know you are later in the WM games when you save more then once per turn.

Coal plant in 3 in Beijing, SciMet in 12, and we can use Suffarage as a pre-build that should max out close to research completing.

Todd Marshall should hopefully be able to sweep south of Hyderabad and take the Peninsula.

I've changed my mind after seeing this India cities, and vote for a rushed FP in New Beijing.

Iron Now is starting to collect a navy. I would like to be able to start island hopping so with India and Persia having so many of the nearby islands. IIRC Eurasia and Africa are NOT enough for domination. We will need those islands, and most should at least pay for themself in research ability. The only one I want to raze and replace is New Calcutta as the idiot Indians just missed 3 whales. I like food positive cities when we know they will be science farms.

One thing we lack is enough units to break resistance in multiple towns. We may need to draft some conscripts to speed the process up.

I can't play again until Thursday, so a good point to pass it on.

ROSTER:
LKendter (just played)
Todd Marshall (up)
Greebley (on deck)
CKS
5th slot still open if somebody interested.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Maniac sees that he is up, and will begin playing tomorrow night. I'll play as many turns as I can over the next 2 nights (well, not more than 10ish obviously, though I doubt I'd have time to anyway) and report either pre-dawn Friday morning, or VERY late Friday night after I get to Chicago. (I'ts occurred to me that I can always email myself the turn notes and save and retrieve it from email on the labtop to load to the site later if time is running too short.)

 

[ToddMarshall]

Only got a couple of turns played so far. It took me a long time to look through all the active deals and wars and such. We're advancing apace, and we have the FP in New Beijing. At the current rate of things, it may be Saturday night before I can finish, but I will try to get it done before then.