LK22 - Always War - Iroqoius

[BrianJ]

You asked for it.. Lee, I was thinking more along the lines of resigning in disgrace Well I did my best and here it is.

Preturn:
A MW is still active. I move it towards the new city site, beside the Bab spear.

Science is turned right off. I leave it for now.

(I) A Spear near Eridu is knocked down to 1 hp, but manages to kill its Sword attacker. A

river of Persians trickle north to Grand River.

960:
A MW dies protecting Workers, but another defeats the Spear.

970 AD:
Akwesasne is founded.

(I)A few Persian and Bab troops die attacking ours. A Barb horse appears beside River Bend.
A Bab sword attacks our Spear across a river and WINS!
Persians climb deep into our territory along the mountains. We need to hide workers soon.

980:
Mostly troop movement

990:
Troop movement. Swords move off the production line in several cities.

1000:
2 SoD from Babylon approach Akwesasne.

(I)6 Immortals impale themselves on GR spears. SoD move next to Akwesasne.

1010:
A sword fails to kill a Bab spear.

(I)Akwesasne is razed by the SoD.. More Persians impale themselves.


1020:
Another Sword fails to kill a Bab spear.

(I) St Regis and GR spears kill several units. We learn Monotheism.

1030:
Beefing up defences.

(I)We learn Feudalism. Only a matter of time before the AI learns Education.. SoD attacks Centralia. We barely hold on.

1040:
25 Spear upgraded to Pike for 500 gold.

(I)Centralia is destroyed.

1050:
Not much here. We lost one of our core cities.. We are in big trouble, sorry guys.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LK22_1050_AD.zip

 

[BrianJ]

Originally posted by LKendter
We can't ignore turns because of bad round.

My last round was nasty around Grand River.


If it is our destiny to lose - let's put the game out of it's misery
This game hasn't looked good for a while, way to far behind the growth curve of LK21.

Well, I didnt want to be the one to kill it.. I didnt actaully do that bad.. killed more than I lost. There is just too many of them.

 

[LKendter]

@BrianJ - Why are we building Swordsman? These a dead units - NO UPGRADES - slower then mw - NO RETREAT when losing.
Alegheny galley - We are dying here - we need ground troops.

@DarkSheer - Please switch all Swordsman to MW.
Wake up or MW - they are NOT defensive units.


Guys,
I think we may have to define when we feel the game is lost.
My turn - Grand River swap around - cost us a lot of troop, and was 1 turn from MarketPlace - big shield loss.
JerseyJoe - Eridu fell.
BrianJ - Akwesasne and Centralia razed.

India aware of us.
England has meet Babylon for sure.

 

[Rowain deWolf]

I looked at your game and LK21 and i find some differences

a) Civ-abbilities: Being expansionist instead of military means: no fast promotions, less Leaders no cheap Barracks but a better exploration and much earlier contact

b) In LK21 we got a Settler out of a goody-hut in 3100BC.

c) The most crucial in my opinion: starting location. In LK21 we started on an penninsula with no one near us,beeing not expansionist we met Rome in 1830BC and we had only one front to secure. here you are sorrounded by your enemys and thats a situation very hard to manage as long as there are no rails. We met the second civ (america ) in 390BC a this time Rome was already hurt. You met your second enemy in1450Bc and the third in 710BC and all are close to you compare to LK21.

d)Our romans didn't have Iron(would have been very hard to fight Legionaires) here your enemies have it and use it.

e) Enemys-civs: We got ironless-Romans, later America, Greece,Egypt and Babylon; Babylon a long time after there UU was any use; America, Egypt have no good UU; the greek UU is defensive so no problems. You have Persia with Immortals and early Bab-bowman which are a nuissance;

f) I still don't know if reducing the number of civs is good or bad. In LK21 they soon ran out of room to expand. America,Greece and Egypt never get a big empire up Only Babylon was big and was by far the toughest opponent in the whole game. Here you Opponents have plenty room to spread and get a sound economy going. On the other hand any additional Civ would have started were this Aztec-city is so perhaps you would be dead already.


But to stress it again the real thing that seems to kill you is your starting location. Sourrounded by your enemies you are doomed to have early contact and to fight at two fronts with no peaceful core.

Good Luck

Rowain

 

[BrianJ]

Originally posted by LKendter
@BrianJ - Why are we building Swordsman? These a dead units - NO UPGRADES - slower then mw - NO RETREAT when losing.
Alegheny galley - We are dying here - we need ground troops.

Forgot to change the Galley.. As for Swords, they have a better attack value than MW.. Maybe but the MW were just getting killed against swarms of spearmen and immortals in our 'core' between Sal and GR..

The immediate upgrade to pikes was unfortunate in that Centralia didnt have barracks and no chance to build it, so no pike upgrades there.

Some MW were in cities to heal..

Good luck, if this continues. I liked Rowains analysis.. good points. We are in a very difficult position.. Taking out Babylon early would have won the game for us, but now is it too late? They are able to field multiple Stacks o' Doom.. Same with Persia, with the 4 attack str. Immortals.

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by Rowain deWolf
a) Civ-abilities: Being expansionist instead of military means: no fast promotions, less Leaders no cheap Barracks but a better exploration and much earlier contact

But to stress it again the real thing that seems to kill you is your starting location. Surrounded by your enemies you are doomed to have early contact and to fight at two fronts with no peaceful core.

Good Luck

Rowain

We made a major mistake with the scouts - we explored TO far. We made the AI aware of us to soon. We have gotten multiple leaders already - I don't think lack of militaristic hurt much. This is why we are in trouble – the scouts HURT us. What is funny – if the first scout went toward Babylon this would have been a much different game. One unit move changed the whole game.


LOCATION is the key. The hills around Salamanca / Grand River (Our key cities) made it impossible to counter-attack. This made our Mounted Warrior much less effective. This was the key reason for picking the Iroquois. The other side of those mountains is all jungle - not like we could have built cities there. To make it worse, all of the rivers around our cities have actually HURT us – slowing down troop movement to much.


Another major factor – it took forever to capture our first workers. We still haven’t captured that many of them.


@Dark Sheer - Please collect all swordsman / Mounted Warrior together near the Bab border - I am going to make a do our die push to try to kill Babylon.

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by Brian J
As for Swords, they have a better attack value than MW.. Maybe but the MW were just getting killed against swarms of spearmen and immortals in our 'core' between Sal and GR..

MAJOR WEED - Mountain Warriors upgrade to Knights, which could be available soon.
Grade=Z (j/k)

A agree with Rowian, 2 less civs actually hurt us.

However, the biggest problem 1000 AD and we still don't have a complete ring of cities around the capitial with the city loss.

Actually, you expect to be swamped with units in always war.
It is the nature of the game.

Another fundamental problem with the terrain - Mountains / hill next to all the cities near the front. Makes it very difficult to do anything but wait to get beat up.

We can't ignore the lack of workers and much of our early work like mines by Salamanca got pillaged.


I would like comments from the rest of the team
What do you think our chances are?
I give this less then 20% - we just don't have the production base to build enough units.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Originally posted by LKendter
What is funny – if the first scout went toward Babylon this would have been a much different game. One unit move changed the whole game.

I agree with that and if we scouted more to the north and less to the south we also would have found horses earlier.

Maybe even just moving the other civs around would have made our start easier. Flip India and Persia locations & flip Babylon and America. We no long face early UU's.

 

[BrianJ]

Originally posted by LKendter


MAJOR WEED - Mountain Warriors upgrade to Knights, which could be available soon.
Grade=Z (j/k)

I would like comments from the rest of the team
What do you think our chances are?
I give this less then 20% - we just don't have the production base to build enough units.

I didnt think we'd last til knights.. But yeah, thats true..

I have to agree with the <20%.. It doesnt look good.

 

[LKendter]

LKendter (on deck)
Garsonga
Jersey Joe
BrianJ
DarkSheer (currently playing) <<<

 

[Gotag]

The hidden problem is not so much the civs you currently face but rather the ones you cannot see. You could wind up beating your current crop of foes with Knights, Cats and Pikes and wind up getting rolled by Tanks and Inf.

I played around 20+ turns and you can hold in the south with some judicial spending. Don't overlook the effectiveness of Cats when defending against SODs. Remember they can in effect fire twice. Once on offence and once on defence. Given the units you face their hit percentage is ok.

Once you have built up a SODs of your own you can go on the offence against the BABs. They are alone north of you and offer the best chance to get yourself out of the hole you are in. You task will be eased considerable if you can manage to get the war to one front only.

You do have to switch to MW though. Not only because they upgrade but also mobility is at this point much more important then the extra point on defence that Swords offer.

The key here is not only spending the dough you have but also very carefully husbanding your own forces until you can switch to a limited offence. Take little bites and try to implode the Bab economy.

Frankly my head hurts from the little I did play. Between optimising production, counting turns to produce and tiles to where the unit needed to be by when and figuring out all those damn rivers I was left wondering if the game was worth the candle.

Best of Luck!!

Gotag

 

[Garsonga]

I say we keep at it. At least until we lose our captiol and things are totally hopeless. Lets build some cats in the south, fortify each southerm city with another spearmen, build some mounted warriors and take the fight north. If we can kill off the Babs and build up their land we may have a chance. I may be wrong but I think the last time I had the game the Babs still did not have iron unless they've recently acquired it.

What the hay let's give a shot it won't cost us anything but a little time, and we might learn something.

Garsonga

P.S. We have feudalism now, can't we build pikes? That should help.

 

[BrianJ]

Originally posted by Garsonga
I say we keep at it. At least until we lose our captiol and things are totally hopeless. Lets build some cats in the south, fortify each southerm city with another spearmen, build some mounted warriors and take the fight north. If we can kill off the Babs and build up their land we may have a chance. I may be wrong but I think the last time I had the game the Babs still did not have iron unless they've recently acquired it.

What the hay let's give a shot it won't cost us anything but a little time, and we might learn something.

Garsonga

P.S. We have feudalism now, can't we build pikes? That should help.

Yep we have Pikes.. just need to upgrade those spears. And as Lee said we may have knights soon too, if the AI doesnt rush to Education..

 

[LKendter]

Babylon has been attacking with swords, and must have iron.



LKendter (on deck)
Garsonga
Jersey Joe
BrianJ
DarkSheer (currently playing) <<< (OVER 24 hours!)
The weekend is here.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I think that once engineering pops out of the library, we should start researching invention by making 1 citizen in St. Regis a scientist. This will not really hurt our production base and gives us a shot at Leo's. Also, it gets us close to gunpowder.

At the speed the ciz's we know have been researching, we might even beat them to invention

At some point we are going to meet the Aztec. If we assume that the civ's we have not yet met are advanced in tech, then maybe we should buy communications from the aztec and introduce ourself's to the other Civ's and hope we get a cascade of many techs from the GL before Education.

 

[Dark Sheer]

1050AD(0) - Pre-turn. Change all Swordsman production to MW. Wall rushed at River Bend. Activated all the fortified MW. Killed injured spearman next to Grand River. Captured Indian settler protected by spearman.
1060AD(1) - Thanks to both English and Indian we now have 4 new slaves. The empty land behind us is like honey to India and England who keep sending their settlers next to our city.
1070AD(2) - Khorsabad razed & 1 new slave acquired.
1090AD(4) - Eridu once again captured. And thanks to Persia we have 4 more new slaves.
1110AD(5) - Thanks to slave labour we now have Pikeman at St. Regis instead of Spearman.
1120AD(6) - Talk about luck! I accidentally activated a MW with only 1hp and it defeated a 3hp spearman!! Woohoo!
1130AD(7) - Khorsabad once again destroyed. Centralia once again established.
1160AD(10) - Ellipi razed and 6 new slave gained.

I am not sure if we can win this one but I am sure going to try it all to the end. I think we still have a chance considering I razed 2 Babylonian cities, establish a new city and capture Eridu once again. Not to mention that we gained 18 new slave labour!

Here is the savegame.

 

[LKendter]

18 slaves [dance]
It looks like we finally got one break - no land to settle except in the Babylon area. Keep sending them our way. Our land really can use the help



I got it, though I do how long till I can do anything.
Attempting to upgrade my home PC to Windows XP is so far not going well.


Going to try leaving it 23 minutes to go for the next hour and see if something happens before I call MicroSuck.

 

[BrianJ]

Originally posted by Dark Sheer

1120AD(6) - Talk about luck! I accidentally activated a MW with only 1hp and it defeated a 3hp spearman!! Woohoo!
I am not sure if we can win this one but I am sure going to try it all to the end. I think we still have a chance considering I razed 2 Babylonian cities, establish a new city and capture Eridu once again. Not to mention that we gained 18 new slave labour!

Here is the savegame.

Wow, nice to see the problems in my turn erased so quickly! See, I had the worst luck in my turn, eg a Bab sword attacking our spear across a river and winning! DS what happened to the Bab Stacks-o-Doom(tm)?

 

[Dark Sheer]

Originally posted by Brian J


Wow, nice to see the problems in my turn erased so quickly! See, I had the worst luck in my turn, eg a Bab sword attacking our spear across a river and winning! DS what happened to the Bab Stacks-o-Doom(tm)?

Well, I noticed there are quite a number of MW sleeping in the cities so I moved some to Tonawanda. I did manage to kill a few while the rest committed suicide on our pikes. Also, at one time I left a city behind Tonawanda with only 1 Pikeman and Babylonian units beeline there instead of attacking Tonawanda so our MW has a chance to pick them off. Currently there are no MW in our inner cities like Salamanca except 2 Pikemans. And one last thing I forgot to mention, I believe St Regis will be connected with road the next turn.

 

[Gotag]

Sounds like the game is getting back on track. Looking forward to more reports!!

Damn, I keep wanting to say more but don't wanna spoil anything now that your all committed to carrying on.

I will say that couple of leaders would be really nice around now.

Gotag