LK38 - PTW, Deity Challenge
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Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
IT: Granary at second town vetoed. Swap to warrior-worker combo.
Early: Gifted HBR to Germany. They have taken Moscow, are at war, and they might trade for or get the tech soon anyway, so we might as well get the diplo benefit from this. The barb horse in the mountains attacked a Mongol unit and lost. I sent our next settler NORTH.
Middle: A new barb camp appeared northwest of Carthage, and a barb warrior came out to pester our unescorted settler. I dispatched him with our archer, the settler continued north. Mongols have already settled in the area up there, claiming the third iron. Our archer cleared the barb camp successfully. A barb warrior kills one of our two warriors at Town 2. Good thing I had trained a spare. The spare wins the next fight.
Late: Our settler arrives at the lake and settles on the only bg tile in the area. IMO, no choice. This was the only tile not overlapping the Mongol town that was still on the fresh water. We do NOT want to piss off the Mongols with an aggressive settlement. (Anybody here who has never read my Epic 13 report, might want to take a look. I used defensive settlement in GOTM14 and was not attacked by Persia until well into AD years).
My second settler grabbed the coastal dot on the river. I trained a worker out of Town 2 and our third worker out of the capital. We're industrious here, folks, GOT to take advantage of it with a few early workers. The more roads we get built, the faster we can move out our settlers and respond to barb threats.
The capital demands micromanagement every single turn. That mined hill is seeing heavy use. Run four food on the first turn, using the hill, then switch from hill to flood plain, 6 food on second turn sees the city grow a size (growing every two turns now!) and that causes the hill to be picked back up automatically, meaning we get the hill every turn. It's a little work, but now is the time when such work pays off the most. I got two settlers and a worker out of our capital on my brief round.
There are dyes in the jungle just north of us, much closer than the wines. BAD NEWS, the Mongols have already settled there!
If any of you have ever played "Go", you'll understand why I sent that settler north. I've got a new dotmap, and we need to prioritize pushing north, not south. We don't want to wait too long and lose the horse-iron blue dot, but we'll have time to send at least two more settlers north before we have to pick up the blue dot to be 100% sure we don't lose it. The good news about our third city, up on the lake, is how much territory it covers for preventing new barb camps, and gives us some room in which we can somewhat safely move workers and new settlers. Remember, on deity, NO settler is safe with one escort. We can be on a mountain with a vet spear and lose to a barb warrior. You escort settlers by clearing the way in front of them, not pairing them with units. Sometimes the unit pair ain't a bad idea, either, but it's not enough and not always best.
LK38 - 1750BC
- Sirian
Early: Gifted HBR to Germany. They have taken Moscow, are at war, and they might trade for or get the tech soon anyway, so we might as well get the diplo benefit from this. The barb horse in the mountains attacked a Mongol unit and lost. I sent our next settler NORTH.
Middle: A new barb camp appeared northwest of Carthage, and a barb warrior came out to pester our unescorted settler. I dispatched him with our archer, the settler continued north. Mongols have already settled in the area up there, claiming the third iron. Our archer cleared the barb camp successfully. A barb warrior kills one of our two warriors at Town 2. Good thing I had trained a spare. The spare wins the next fight.
Late: Our settler arrives at the lake and settles on the only bg tile in the area. IMO, no choice. This was the only tile not overlapping the Mongol town that was still on the fresh water. We do NOT want to piss off the Mongols with an aggressive settlement. (Anybody here who has never read my Epic 13 report, might want to take a look. I used defensive settlement in GOTM14 and was not attacked by Persia until well into AD years).
My second settler grabbed the coastal dot on the river. I trained a worker out of Town 2 and our third worker out of the capital. We're industrious here, folks, GOT to take advantage of it with a few early workers. The more roads we get built, the faster we can move out our settlers and respond to barb threats.
The capital demands micromanagement every single turn. That mined hill is seeing heavy use. Run four food on the first turn, using the hill, then switch from hill to flood plain, 6 food on second turn sees the city grow a size (growing every two turns now!) and that causes the hill to be picked back up automatically, meaning we get the hill every turn. It's a little work, but now is the time when such work pays off the most. I got two settlers and a worker out of our capital on my brief round.
There are dyes in the jungle just north of us, much closer than the wines. BAD NEWS, the Mongols have already settled there!
If any of you have ever played "Go", you'll understand why I sent that settler north. I've got a new dotmap, and we need to prioritize pushing north, not south. We don't want to wait too long and lose the horse-iron blue dot, but we'll have time to send at least two more settlers north before we have to pick up the blue dot to be 100% sure we don't lose it. The good news about our third city, up on the lake, is how much territory it covers for preventing new barb camps, and gives us some room in which we can somewhat safely move workers and new settlers. Remember, on deity, NO settler is safe with one escort. We can be on a mountain with a vet spear and lose to a barb warrior. You escort settlers by clearing the way in front of them, not pairing them with units. Sometimes the unit pair ain't a bad idea, either, but it's not enough and not always best.LK38 - 1750BC
- Sirian
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Here's the new dotmap. I urge top priority to pink dot. We already have cover in that area, where our archer cleared out a recent barb camp. Then we should go for either green or orange, really reach out there and try to make a bold grab. After that, we must clean up dark blue and white dots to secure the resources. We also need to scout the jungle and see where, if anywhere, we want to add a safe dot to flesh out our border with the Mongols. Germany and Russia are warring, and both pretty far to the east, especially Germany. The Mongols are, for the moment, our only real settlement rivals, so if we push in their direction first, we may lead them to stop pushing our way and start filling in their backside, giving us a chance to fill in our backside.
Good luck.
- Sirian
Good luck.
- Sirian
Sirian :
Talking about defensive settlements in GOTM14 ; when is your report published I CAN'T WAIT ANYMORE MAN !
Looking at your save game I saw this huge Maginot line of fortresses across the isalnd so I already have a "guessed" idea of what was your early expansion and ensuing strategy : quite interesting !
Talking about defensive settlements in GOTM14 ; when is your report published I CAN'T WAIT ANYMORE MAN !
Looking at your save game I saw this huge Maginot line of fortresses across the isalnd so I already have a "guessed" idea of what was your early expansion and ensuing strategy : quite interesting !
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
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- 20,064
I see the granary is really earning it keep 
Our first luxury of of Gems is secured.
I agree 100% - the fastest we get those settlers, the more cities we can grab. I was tweek it a lot my turns, along with changing the luxury tax.
Our first luxury of of Gems is secured.
I agree 100% - the fastest we get those settlers, the more cities we can grab. I was tweek it a lot my turns, along with changing the luxury tax.
Great turn, Sirian! It was a real boon to find fresh water up north. I agree with your dot map and proposed settlement order. Grabbing both the Dyes and the Wine would give us a real boost, making (1) pink, (2) green, (3) orange my preferred order.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
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- Sep 19, 2002
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- 3,352
"Got it"
This is what I like to see, 24 hours pass and 3 turns already played. I may slow the pace a bit here, I'm at work now and I'll play tonight but may not get it posted until the morning.
The granary is indeed huge, as always when no AI starts in your second ring! The mined hill was also an excellent move.
I'll be looking to settle as many new cities as possible. Trying to push north as far as I can, possibly all the way to the orange 1st, while on the lookout for mongols moving south. I may use the archer to clear up the fog west of the orange to make sure we don't miss anything there. I don't see the mongol settlement near the dyes but I guess I will when I open the save. That also suggests that I try to grab the wines sooner than later. Too bad none of our other cities have any bonus food, that could have accelerated our settler production some.
Where is our ancient rival Rome?
This is what I like to see, 24 hours pass and 3 turns already played. I may slow the pace a bit here, I'm at work now and I'll play tonight but may not get it posted until the morning.
The granary is indeed huge, as always when no AI starts in your second ring! The mined hill was also an excellent move.
I'll be looking to settle as many new cities as possible. Trying to push north as far as I can, possibly all the way to the orange 1st, while on the lookout for mongols moving south. I may use the archer to clear up the fog west of the orange to make sure we don't miss anything there. I don't see the mongol settlement near the dyes but I guess I will when I open the save. That also suggests that I try to grab the wines sooner than later. Too bad none of our other cities have any bonus food, that could have accelerated our settler production some.
Where is our ancient rival Rome?
Nad
Known Troublemaker
good luck with this one guys, certainly is a lot of land for you to deal with there. As an emperor player looking to move onto deity this is exactly the sort of game I love to follow, so plenty of analysis and screenshots please!!!!
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
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- Sep 19, 2002
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- 3,352
The continent could just be oddly shaped, I was wondering if there is a bottleneck somewhere east of Utica. The mongols either have lots of room to their north, or there is another civ up there.
Let's see, there are 7 civs... It wouldn't be unusual to have 4 on one continent and three on another.
Let's see, there are 7 civs... It wouldn't be unusual to have 4 on one continent and three on another.
Well played so far everyone. It looks like we will be in great shape as far as resources and luxuries are concerned. One question about the Numidian Mercenary being contructed (trained?) in Utica: Since it is Sirian who was building it, I do not doubt there is a good reason. Perhaps it fits perfectly with a settler or worker, or something along those lines. If it is for military police, then a warrior is 1/3 the price and just as effective. Obviously you already know all this, but I'm just curious as to what your plan is.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
Needs could change and the NuMe might be vetoed for something else. However, barbs are a raging menace to our civ in this game, whatever they may be set at. We already blew ten shields on a warrior lost to barbs in that city. The NuMe's are our UU, and also our military strength. Defense 3 fortified on on a hill ought to fight off even Deity barbs. We have to get military from somewhere, and we need some mil with more teeth. The one archer we already had is the only reason I got as far as I did on my turn. Otherwise, the camp north of Carthage would be owning us, and wrecking our improved tiles.
Deity barbarians change everything. They are formidable. Not unbeatable, but nothing like any lower difficulty, including emperor. I don't know if we have the time to train a NuMe there, but if not there, then where? If we had just ONE of them, we could secure vs barbs on whatever frontier we like, including the possibility of WHIPPING to get one of these things trained earlier. Having one ready for escort to green dot would be nice. Perhaps changing to warrior, then doing the NuMe and whipping its last 20 shields, would be better. Up to next player.
We need to get more cities going as fast as we can, but we have to have some military with teeth to cope with these barbs. The AI's will send units to dispatch the camps eventually, but how far we can push farmer-style expansion with SO MANY barbs and camps running loose is a difficult question. If a town were overrun and improvements lost (barbs can now destroy at least walls, maybe more) it would be a big setback. That's another reason not to let the blue dot go for toooo long. Barbs in the mountains or hills to the south would have to be cleaned out by the AI's and that could take them a while.
There are too many variables to know the best plan. Where and when will new camps pop up? I can't predict that. We've got to have more than just warriors, though. It's a tough balancing act that can go wrong in either direction rather easily. I was lucky to see our archer win two fights vs barbs in hill terrain. If the archer had died out, we'd be in a pickle right now. Yet it's hard to slow down to build a NuMe at the capital, with so much food rolling in and only one high-shield tile fully improved.
I don't actually have a plan, only an awareness of competing needs.
- Sirian
Deity barbarians change everything. They are formidable. Not unbeatable, but nothing like any lower difficulty, including emperor. I don't know if we have the time to train a NuMe there, but if not there, then where? If we had just ONE of them, we could secure vs barbs on whatever frontier we like, including the possibility of WHIPPING to get one of these things trained earlier. Having one ready for escort to green dot would be nice. Perhaps changing to warrior, then doing the NuMe and whipping its last 20 shields, would be better. Up to next player.
We need to get more cities going as fast as we can, but we have to have some military with teeth to cope with these barbs. The AI's will send units to dispatch the camps eventually, but how far we can push farmer-style expansion with SO MANY barbs and camps running loose is a difficult question. If a town were overrun and improvements lost (barbs can now destroy at least walls, maybe more) it would be a big setback. That's another reason not to let the blue dot go for toooo long. Barbs in the mountains or hills to the south would have to be cleaned out by the AI's and that could take them a while.
There are too many variables to know the best plan. Where and when will new camps pop up? I can't predict that. We've got to have more than just warriors, though. It's a tough balancing act that can go wrong in either direction rather easily. I was lucky to see our archer win two fights vs barbs in hill terrain. If the archer had died out, we'd be in a pickle right now. Yet it's hard to slow down to build a NuMe at the capital, with so much food rolling in and only one high-shield tile fully improved.
I don't actually have a plan, only an awareness of competing needs.
- Sirian
That works for me Sirian. I know exactly what you are talking about in regards to Deity barbarians reaking havoc. They are the real horde, not the Mongolian army. NuMe also have an attack of 2, so they can take out a barbarian on flat ground. Thanks for the explanation.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
- Joined
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Summary: The mongols have lots of room to the north and east and haven't sent any more settlers our way. We settled the orange dot and there is a settler presently standing on the green dot. We met the Scandinavians (Vikings) and they have contact with the Koreans and the Indians. We have a good WM and tech parity excepting CoL. The Koreans have an island to themselves and the Indians share with the Vikings. The other civ is Persia and they must be on an island by themselves.
My Report:
I look things over: Russia still has workers in her capital and the Mongols have writing. I decide to change the NM being built in Utica to a warrior and send the one garrisoned there to scout out the lands near our future wine settlement. I cant remember if I am supposed to play 10 or 20 turns on my first go, so I decide on 15.
Early turns (1725-1600): I rush the settler in Carthage at pop 5 with 20 shields left. I want the orange dot. Math is discovered and I start min on Poly. I trade Math to the Mongols for writing and 140 gold, to the Russians with 70 gold for the two workers cowering in Moscow. One industrial worker + one slave worker can build a road in one turn so this will help us connect our empire. Germany has nothing and gets nothing. We have too much cash and the Mongols will extort us soon. I send the archer to disperse some barbs north of Theveste, and our northern scout runs from barbs discovered up there.
Middle turns (1575-1475): A barb horse emerges from the fog east of Utica, I cross my fingers and attack him with a warrior out in the open and win in the red. The Mongols have CoL now, but we are nowhere near affording it. IT the Mongols extort us for 31 gold, OK for now Mr. Ugly pug. The Mongols do help us with barb control east of Utica attacking the camp on a hill. The northern scout is attacked by a barb horse coming out of the fog while on a hill and survives in the red. Russia and Germany are going at it, this will help us as Russia would certainly have grabbed the wines by now otherwise. Carthage produces another settler, and a settler reaches the orange dot location. We now have Gems hooked up. Hippo founded on orange dot, this will mark the northern extent of our empire.
Late turns (1450-1350): Our settler heads out for the wine gambit, I have a scout around there and our chances look good. IT Ragnar calls us up, wanting to sell us Philosophy for 160 I pay him 155 for it. He has contact with Korea and India (our future commercial trading partner). On my turn I trade Biz Phil, and Math for MapMaking+WM+10 gold. Biz's WM included the Scandinavian TM. Russia already has MM and is up CoL and communication with Korea and India on us, they must have made first contact with Scandinavia. They would sell us CoL for 158+WM+1 gpt, but I hold off awaiting more contacts to drive the price down. I swap Theveste from NM to galley. Ragnar will trade his treasury (32 gp) for our WM so I take the opportunity to trade our WM+90 gold for his WM. Then I sell our WM to the Mongols for 8, to the Russians for 70, and to the Germans for 43 (treasury). I use the profits to buy embassies with the Mongols (running 100% science, 55 turns to pyramids, no buildings, 1 entertainer and 3 spears) and Germany (running 80% science, have a racks and 3 spears). Russia is down to 3 cities and may not last long so I decide against spending the last of our cash on an embassy. IT Russia calls up and offers us contact with the Koreans for our treasury (100 gold) no thanks. On my last turn Carthage completes a settler, barbs appear north of Theveste and I swap it back to a NM. Our settler reaches the green dot to grab wines and define the eastern extent of our land grab.
Thoughts: I left the settler in Carthage unmoved on my last turn so the next leader can decide what to do with him. The NM in Theveste is due in 1 turn, but could be swapped back to a galley if the next leader is feeling bold against the barbs. We have a NM due from Utica in 3, I didn't whip it (and whip it good) because the timing of our growth wasn't ideal, but maybe I should have in retrospect. We will want a galley ASAP to settle the southern island and to get contacts if they arent brokered around before then. The Mongols extorted us 9 turns ago, so watch out in another 11 turns - don't leave cash in the bank. Remember to MM Carthage if below size 4 as noted by Syrian (swap hill to flood to generate 6 food on second turn), at size 5 and 6 no MM is necessary as it produces 5 food with hill in play. There are still about 5 turns of whipping sadness left in Carthage. Think about using the whip again after that, with the AI having galleys about they could swoop in and grab our choice spots. We want to secure horses, 2 iron, and those cows ASAP. Working from Sirians dotmap that makes our priorities Dark Blue, Light Blue, White in my opinion. It looks like a good game! Enjoy.
Save and screenies to follow.
My Report:
I look things over: Russia still has workers in her capital and the Mongols have writing. I decide to change the NM being built in Utica to a warrior and send the one garrisoned there to scout out the lands near our future wine settlement. I cant remember if I am supposed to play 10 or 20 turns on my first go, so I decide on 15.
Early turns (1725-1600): I rush the settler in Carthage at pop 5 with 20 shields left. I want the orange dot. Math is discovered and I start min on Poly. I trade Math to the Mongols for writing and 140 gold, to the Russians with 70 gold for the two workers cowering in Moscow. One industrial worker + one slave worker can build a road in one turn so this will help us connect our empire. Germany has nothing and gets nothing. We have too much cash and the Mongols will extort us soon. I send the archer to disperse some barbs north of Theveste, and our northern scout runs from barbs discovered up there.
Middle turns (1575-1475): A barb horse emerges from the fog east of Utica, I cross my fingers and attack him with a warrior out in the open and win in the red. The Mongols have CoL now, but we are nowhere near affording it. IT the Mongols extort us for 31 gold, OK for now Mr. Ugly pug. The Mongols do help us with barb control east of Utica attacking the camp on a hill. The northern scout is attacked by a barb horse coming out of the fog while on a hill and survives in the red. Russia and Germany are going at it, this will help us as Russia would certainly have grabbed the wines by now otherwise. Carthage produces another settler, and a settler reaches the orange dot location. We now have Gems hooked up. Hippo founded on orange dot, this will mark the northern extent of our empire.
Late turns (1450-1350): Our settler heads out for the wine gambit, I have a scout around there and our chances look good. IT Ragnar calls us up, wanting to sell us Philosophy for 160 I pay him 155 for it. He has contact with Korea and India (our future commercial trading partner). On my turn I trade Biz Phil, and Math for MapMaking+WM+10 gold. Biz's WM included the Scandinavian TM. Russia already has MM and is up CoL and communication with Korea and India on us, they must have made first contact with Scandinavia. They would sell us CoL for 158+WM+1 gpt, but I hold off awaiting more contacts to drive the price down. I swap Theveste from NM to galley. Ragnar will trade his treasury (32 gp) for our WM so I take the opportunity to trade our WM+90 gold for his WM. Then I sell our WM to the Mongols for 8, to the Russians for 70, and to the Germans for 43 (treasury). I use the profits to buy embassies with the Mongols (running 100% science, 55 turns to pyramids, no buildings, 1 entertainer and 3 spears) and Germany (running 80% science, have a racks and 3 spears). Russia is down to 3 cities and may not last long so I decide against spending the last of our cash on an embassy. IT Russia calls up and offers us contact with the Koreans for our treasury (100 gold) no thanks. On my last turn Carthage completes a settler, barbs appear north of Theveste and I swap it back to a NM. Our settler reaches the green dot to grab wines and define the eastern extent of our land grab.
Thoughts: I left the settler in Carthage unmoved on my last turn so the next leader can decide what to do with him. The NM in Theveste is due in 1 turn, but could be swapped back to a galley if the next leader is feeling bold against the barbs. We have a NM due from Utica in 3, I didn't whip it (and whip it good) because the timing of our growth wasn't ideal, but maybe I should have in retrospect. We will want a galley ASAP to settle the southern island and to get contacts if they arent brokered around before then. The Mongols extorted us 9 turns ago, so watch out in another 11 turns - don't leave cash in the bank. Remember to MM Carthage if below size 4 as noted by Syrian (swap hill to flood to generate 6 food on second turn), at size 5 and 6 no MM is necessary as it produces 5 food with hill in play. There are still about 5 turns of whipping sadness left in Carthage. Think about using the whip again after that, with the AI having galleys about they could swoop in and grab our choice spots. We want to secure horses, 2 iron, and those cows ASAP. Working from Sirians dotmap that makes our priorities Dark Blue, Light Blue, White in my opinion. It looks like a good game! Enjoy.
Save and screenies to follow.
Gothmog
Dread Enforcer
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Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
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- Dec 5, 2001
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- 7,475
pity i misses this one.
