LK59 - Simply Deity

[LKendter]

Check the alliance situation. If we have no allies vs. Russia then make peace. I know some alliances were signed, but I think that was against the Vikings.

buy other civs into alliance which would probably be wise to avoid.
This is the main reason I like to cave to overseas civs. If someone bought Korea against us.





I think we should trade Literature plus all our cash for Republic from Korea right now.
I couldn't agree more - lets take max advantage of our literature gambit. IMHO you can't get to Republic fast enough.

 

[Aggie]

Originally posted by T-hawk
Aggie just played, I'm up. Got it and have peeked at the save, but don't want to play before we get a chance for discussion.

Why are we building harbors?! The cities don't need them for food, and we can't trade with the other continent until Astronomy. Oporto should farm workers.

Are you sure about Astronomy? Seems to me that Map Making and harbors are enough, because there is only coast between us. Harbors are cheap for us. That said, I agree that we need workers.

Originally posted by T-hawk
Diplomacy - I think we should trade Literature plus all our cash for Republic from Korea right now. Literature is worth significantly less to Sumeria than it is to Korea, meaning Gilgamesh is researching it, so our window is short. And we can flip Republic to pick up Construction from the Maya in a two-fer.

Absolutely! It was late last night so I maybe wasn't thinking straight not to check if we could get Republic. I know very well that this is a vital tech.

Originally posted by T-hawk
Is there a reason we're still at war with Russia? I know they can't threaten us, but they can buy other civs into alliance which would probably be wise to avoid.

True, but I decided to wait until Literature. Now we could even get some cash or technology out of the peace. Otherwise we would have to pay 110 gold.

 

[Grimjack]

Do we have plans for keeping peace with Korea for the next couple of turns ?
In that case we could perhaps sign both Korea and Sumeria up against the Russians, so we could build up our infra in Republic while they are wasting away shields on obsolete military units.
Having the occasional settler to draw slaves from would also not be bad.

Grimjack

 

[mad-bax]

Originally posted by Grimjack
Do we have plans for keeping peace with Korea for the next couple of turns ?
In that case we could perhaps sign both Korea and Sumeria up against the Russians
Grimjack

Exactly. When I decided to reject Russias demands we had a peace deal and a gpt deal with Korea. Therefore it would be very difficult for Russia to bring in the Koreans against us. I actually thought it was a low risk move, and was even hoping that Russia would send some settlers to our lands. The risk from Russia is small. We were only a dozen turns from Lit. My thinking was that if we got a monopoly we could trade to parity and get Sumaria into an MA against Russia.

Rather than take peace with Russia I would prolong the war with an MA with Sumaria. These two civs are our biggest rivals and a war between them would be very good for us. Korea is not such a big rival since they are on our continent and therefore will not see the industrial age.

Republic would be great IMO, but we will need to get our towns to size 7 straight away to reduce unit costs.

BTW I still think Leiria is well placed, is not a flip risk, and because of diagonal tile counting is at distance 3 from the Korean city and will not precipitate a war. The Korean city is a 1 shield hole and will not be culturally significant, nor will its cultural radius ever join with the Korean main culture body. There are good sites further from the capital but they won't be very productive till steam. In the MA it's the first ring that allows you to fight an MA war at deity IMHO.

 

[Aggie]

My two cents: I think that we indeed can get MA's vs Russia like Grimjack suggests. However this could be considered as "phoney war", although Russia started it 15 turns ago... Is it allowed in this SG? What do Lee's rules say?

I think that Mad-bax has a point regarding Leiria. The Korean cities Inch'on and Pageam can be isolated easily by settling around Lagos They probably will be our first targets in the second Korean war.

PS. Sorry Mad-bax. I promised myself to be less uptight than in COS, but here I am asking for the rules again

 

[mad-bax]

Aggie, I think we know each other well enough to "appreciate" each others posting style by now.

I would be glad of a rule clarification too as I have not played an LK game b4. I assumed that a phoney war was where you meet a civ that cannot attack you and declare war with the sole intention of kneecapping that civ at zero risk. In this game Russia made the demand and decided to declare war. They must live with the consequences surely.

 

[LKendter]

The war with Russia is a phony war even though they started it - no troops have fought is what I see as a phony war. However, there is nothing in the LK rules that prohibit phony wars. If someone declares on me I will get allies if in my best interest.

The LK rules are to stop game breaking abuse such as RoP Rape. A phony war doesn't fall under the other exploits comments.

 

[T-hawk]

I ask for discussion, and we get a huge debate...

* Korea - we can't declare war on Korea now because we need to pay them gold-per-turn for Republic. There's nobody else we can buy it from, and we definitely gain more by getting into Republic than we'd conquer from Korea.

* We have no allies vs Russia currently. I would indeed lean towards signing Sumeria to an alliance against Russia to keep both busy. We may be able to buy Korea against the Russians, too, so they can't be bought against us. Then definitely make peace with the Vikings in two turns. And if someone does somehow buy Korea against us, we get our Republic payment back.

* Trading and harbors - I can't find any coastal path between the continents. There is no coastal connection by Lagos and Coimbra, at least. A harbor would allow trading with whoever gets the Great Lighthouse, but that can wait until the Lighthouse actually gets built.

* Workers - can we all agree to keep Oporto farming workers for a long time? Then the northern cities don't have to spend 10 turns building their own, and don't have to build granaries either as worker merges can take them up to size. Evora needs a temple (which will pull in all that bonus grassland for both it and Braga), and Braga should build a barracks and become another military producer.

 

[Aggie]

Originally posted by T-hawk
* Trading and harbors - I can't find any coastal path between the continents. There is no coastal connection by Lagos and Coimbra, at least. A harbor would allow trading with whoever gets the Great Lighthouse, but that can wait until the Lighthouse actually gets built.

South of Coimbra the two coastal ridges are seperated by one sea tile. Are you saying that this will avoid trade until late Middle Ages?

Russia finished the Great Lighthouse already in my turns (see turnlog).


PS. I agree with peace with Korea for a while. And the build suggestions also look alright to me.

EDIT: Can't the other civs trade via a harbor of Russia who has the Great Lighthouse when indeed those sea tiles block trade for the other civs?

 

[LKendter]

EDIT: Can't the other civs trade via a harbor of Russia who has the Great Lighthouse when indeed those sea tiles block trade for the other civs?

Do you want our rep to be totally dependent on peace with Russia? This is a perfect setup to destroy our rep.

 

[T-hawk]

Yes, that one-tile-wide strip of sea squares prevents resource trading until Astronomy. Without the Lighthouse, to trade you need a path of coastal squares all the way.

Yes, we can trade to civs who are at peace with Russia and have a road connection to a Russian harbor. But as Lee says, DO NOT DO THIS! That is indeed hanging a big sign on our backs "KICK MY REP". Besides, we don't have any resources to trade anyway, and furthermore we're going to stay at war with Russia for a while.

When we make peace with Russia, we can BUY resources from other civs on that continent. (But if we do that, only pay per-turn, so that we don't get gypped out of our payment if the route does break.)

 

[Aggie]

I have played this game for more than two years and still I learn new things Thanks T-Hawk.

 

[T-hawk]

Due to a combination of things going on, I'm playing this on my PC at work. Man, the game looks NICE in 1280x1024 on an LCD monitor.

Inherited turn:

As discussed, I start by trading for Republic from Korea. I'd like to package an alliance against Russia in the same deal - so if they make peace, we get some of our Republic payment back. First I establish an embassy in Seoul, which is size 4, building a settler, has a temple and colosseum, and 4 each of ancient cavalry and spearmen. (Who thought we should declare war on Korea? ) No barracks so they're all regulars.

Oops, though - Korea has never met the Russians. So we go ahead and pay Literature + 236 gold + 21/turn for Republic.

I then establish embassy with Sumeria. They are in Golden Age and Ur has almost all eligible buildings and 8 defending units but no strategic resources.

However, we can't afford to pay Sumeria to ally against Russia. Literature plus our remaining 112 gold is "insult". So we'll have to go without that.

We do flip Republic to the Maya for both Construction and Monarchy.

Then, I decide to make peace with Russia now; in the treaty we give them Literature for their 140 gold. An embassy with Russia shows that Moscow is 4 turns away from the Hanging Gardens, has only a barracks and temple, and six regular spearmen. Finally, I give Republic to them to ally against the Vikings.

Basically, I flipped the previous plan - we made peace with Russia and allied the world against the Vikings instead of the other way around.

And we revolt. 5 turns of anarchy with brutal happiness problems...

==========

750 BC: Korea completes the Hanging Gardens in their city closest to us. Everybody cascades to the Great Library.

710 BC: Korea demands 29 gold. Better to pay, I think...

690 BC: Faro founded on the lake at the choke and Rio Janeiro founded on the eastern peninsula. Our land is now filled.

The Vikings land an archer next to Braga which we kill with a horse.

650 BC: We're a Republic. 20% luxuries are necessary, and we're breaking even on economy.

Little happens.

550 BC: We finally have the Dyes hooked up but several cities still need 20% lux.

Currency is around but we can't afford it; we'll probably have to wait for the Republic payment to run out, and then we can also get a discount on it from the Vikings for peace.

The horsemen scattered around are playing "zone defense" against any Viking seaborne invasions.

Oporto is set up as a perfect 2-turn worker farm. Let it make nothing but workers for a long time. (It only needs one of the cattle tiles to do this. It cannot make a worker every turn even with all 3 cattle because it can't get enough shields. It can with planted forests later.)

We need a Forbidden Palace, but I have no idea where. Coimbra or Emerita are about the only choices, but neither is really good...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/lk59-550bc.zip

 

[barbslinger]

Originally posted by T-hawk
I'm playing this on my PC at work.

For the love God, do you have to rub that in while the rest of us poor souls have to read CFF adn dream of playing.

 

[LKendter]

LKendter (on deck)
Mad-bax
Aggie
T-hawk
Grimjack (currently playing)
Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[Grimjack]

Got it,

Grimjack

 

[T-hawk]

Upon further thought, if Grimjack isn't already playing, I think that Emerita should just swap to the Forbidden Palace right now and go for it. We need the OCN boost more than we need any of the distance corruption reduction, and Emerita's location will reduce distance corruption for at least five cities once we capture the two Korean ones.

 

[Grimjack]

Sorry T-Hawk, due to bad luck, I had to stay home today, and have finished my turns. No FP prebuild in Emeritus. Could be started by next player though.

LK59-550BC, Main direction of turns is growth, while fishing against viking invaders.
Tech status, everyone except us have at least Currency. With 144 gold and 1 gpt, there is really not much I can do about it.

IBT: Oporto worker->worker,

530 Emerita grows, and I have to choose between a taxman and paying yet another 9 gpt for lux. Emerita gets a Taxman and I switch the horse to a temple.
One of our Curraghs are chased by a viking galley. I head it off into the unexplored deep sea, trying to map up new territory.

IBT: Russia sign peace with Scandinavia. Vikings offer straight peace, which I decline.

510 STart to draw free workers towards the center, as our capital is working unimproved tiles, languíshing on 9 spt.

IBT: Oporto worker->worker,

490 Faro at our extreme west gets a taxman. Net effect is one gold, since it was not totally corrupt.

IBT: Lisbon HOrse->HOrse, Koreans start SunTzu. Lets hope it is close to us.
In'chon the Koreans poached city expands its borders.

470

IBT: Oporto worker->worker

450 Observe that the Mayans have had some success with their marine invasions, as the Viking spur is now striped with blue. Thats perhaps the reason I have not seen any Scandinavians in our parts.

IBT: Russia and Maya sign peace. Russians start Leos ( Ouch. )

430 Income goes to -3 as I raise lux tax. Two of our core cities needed it. Reassigned taxman in EMeritus to a gem merchant to save some of the gpt.
Going price for Currency is 152 gold and 10 gpt ( from Sumeria. ) I get it from Scandinavia instead for peace and 11gpt+11 after I cancel the alliance with the Mayans.
Sumeria is up Feudalism and Engineering,
Scandinavia is even,
Mayans are even
Russia is up Feudalism and Engineering and rich. They have more than 35 gpt.
Korea is up Feudalism and Engineering as well.

We also know Russia has Invention.

I start a min run on Feudalism, as that tech has a cost multiplier for the AIs.
Coimbra gets the lone scientist, as I can then keep a 20% lux tax for now.

IBT: Lisbon completes horse, start a market, Oporto worker->worker,Emerita Temple -> Market. ( It also lacks a granary, but we have a happiness problem, as well as money problem, so I think Market is more important.

410 Standard MM to get growth one turn earlier, trusting the governor to make sure we do not lose shields.
Money is pretty awful, at 135 gold and -9 gpt.

IBT: Sumerians start Leos.

390

IBT: Oporto worker->worker, Sagres Court->Market ( This is also a river city. )
Vikings start SunTzu. Good for them.

370

IBT: Lagos Temple->Walls. ( Eminently vetoable. I suspect this will be a city under attack, but if we are the aggerssors, a rax would be better for a forward healing base. )
Koreans start Leos

350BC: In Coimbra, you could get the court in one turn, if you placed the scientist. Doing this would force you to raise lux tax though. The two worker stacks on the hills are suboptimal in amount of workers. They got added to oen at a time, without a proper plan from me.
Vikings and Maya are up Feudalism, but we need gold. Oops, belay that, we just got gold from the Republic deal that ran out.
Then I suspect it would be prudent to make a 2fer Engineering/Feudalism if possible. Do check beforehand though, as Feudalism is much more expensive in C3C than in PTW.

Grimjack

Save: Is right here.

Go get the LKendter

 

[T-hawk]

You made peace with the Vikings in 430 BC? That broke the alliance I signed with Russia against the Vikings. I probably should have emphasized that a bit more in my report...

Anyway, growth, markets, and worker farms are the way to go for awhile. Eventually we'll want to go after Korea, but we're going to need at least knights to counter their ancient cavalry.

 

[LKendter]

I get it from Scandinavia instead for peace and 11gpt+11 after I cancel the alliance with the Mayans.

That broke the alliance I signed with Russia against the Vikings.

ARGGGGG
That sounds like our rep is at least partially trashed.