LK62 - Austria, Demigod, Fast Moving Civ

[LKendter]

Don't forget that with attacking India we can't land any muskets to absord the losses. I think our Hussars would get slaughters in India who has burned very little troops in wars.

I agree that culture will very much get us toward domination. I added 3% on my turns just with culture and a lot of that was coming due during Grimjack's turn as my first money was pike upgrades. No matter what we should keep rushing temples - for now in former Portugal.

 

[Aggie]

I will of course rush culture, but we won't win with that a;lone. We have to invade India or the Ottomans at some point.

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by Aggie
I will of course rush culture, but we won't win with that a;lone. We have to invade India or the Ottomans at some point.

I agree 100% - one more time.

My point not stated well enough is the culture is the only thing worth spending money one for the most part. We don't need much more tech to win. The only other thing I rushed was some workers from corrupt towns to get rails going faster.

We need territory and every temple gets that closer. Portugal plus the culture took us from 38% at the start of my turn to 55% at the end of Grimjack's turn. I agree 13% more won't come from just expanding our existing borders.

 

[Aggie]

IHT: I rushed 5 temples and 72 gold went into the investigation of Mugla. Note that the Ottomans have oil (which we can't see on the map yet - no refining), but NO RUBBER This means NO Infantry!

So I decide to attack the Ottomans, but since we have 4 turns more peace and another deal for 16 turns, I demand them to leave. And they do just that

Normally I would invade the Ottomans nevertheless (this is not hurting our rep, because we won't make deals after this one with anyone), but this is against Lee's rules (and my own SG-rules as well...). I try to kick them out every turn, because rushing caravels to attack India will take more time. Plus Lee is right that we can't send defense, severely hindering the assault.

More tomorrow or friday.

Stupid Ottomans

EDIT: I don't think that the Ottomans will cross our borders anymore. They have no need for it, other than to attack us. I have no choice than to builds ships and invade India, before they have infantry. If I'm too late for that we have to wait for the deal with Osman to expire or even for tanks. I'm afraid that Osman will have tanks within 16 turns.

 

[LKendter]

Note that the Ottomans have oil (which we can't see on the map yet - no refining), but NO RUBBER This means NO Infantry!

I can't believe we fell that far behind in tech! We are caught between the rock and a hard place at this point. To win we must get those culture borders closed; yet we need that cash for techs a possible galley rushes.

A land invasion of India with 3 defense units won't work. The only other option is to get all culture rushed and try and grab a couple of cities to go over the limit from India. The map generator screwed us this game with a so-called pangeaa.

The practical way to win is to beat up the Ottomans. However, I agree my rules prohibit such an attack as we have open deals with the Ottomans. A 16-turn wait will almost guarantees infantry appear.

Are there any comments from the rest of the team? My gut feeling says we have to wait the 16 turns, lock all borders with culture, and at least get rifleman before then. I don't think we need many cities.

 

[Grimjack]

Are you certain teh Indians would attack our armies on top of a mountain ?

My idea was to declare soonish, and sign up the Ottomans. While they expended their troops on each other, I would build our galleys, and send the armies as defenders. I doubt the Indians would attack our armies on a mountain with their cavalry, even though that would be the smart thing to do.

Grimjack

 

[Aggie]

Armies can't be put on the galleons, since they contain 5 units (4 Hussars and the army leader). So NO armies in India...

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by Aggie
Armies can't be put on the galleons, since they contain 5 units (4 Hussars and the army leader). So NO armies in India...

Well that ends the debate on India. By the time we have transports it will be tank time.

The only way to win shortly is the Ottomans. Any other game plan requires tanks, and the rush to catch up on tech. I think the next tech target is spies to force a war easier...

 

[Volum]

Trust me, u will win.
LKendter never looses

 

[Aggie]

I'd would place deliberate war through Espionage on the same level as breaking a trade or peace deal by declaring war yourself. Only difference is that the other gets the rep hit (which at this point doesn't matter anymore). I would either ban both or allow both. Just my two cents.

And what happens when the two civs we know don't have Espionage? Our research capacity is pathetic. But that to me is of less importance than my first point.

EDIT: I should be blunt: I want to attack the Ottomans despite the deals... But I won't if the team (and most importantly Lee) disagrees.

@Volum: It's not a matter of winning, but more one of winning fast with the planned tactic or winning slowly.

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by Aggie
I'd would place deliberate war through Espionage on the same level as breaking a trade or peace deal by declaring war yourself. Only difference is that the other gets the rep hit (which at this point doesn't matter anymore). I would either ban both or allow both. Just my two cents.

No immediate answer on this one, but you bring up a good point.

Originally posted by Aggie
EDIT: I should be blunt: I want to attack the Ottomans despite the deals... But I won't if the team (and most importantly Lee) disagrees.

If I make an exception for this one, then I open a real mess on my deals rule. It may hurt us in this game, but we have to live with the consequences.

IMHO we should never have bought industry from the Ottomans. Without that deal we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[Aggie]

I understand your reasoning. Therefore my tactic will be:

- fast cultural expansion
- settling so fill up spaces
- try to get the Ottomans to declare war every turn (only by kicking them out if possible)
- build up of Hussars and Galleons

If the Ottomans have infantry:
- send a Stack of Doom of Hussars to India. 28 of them on a mountaintop must be powerful

If the Indians have infantry:
-try to get in the tech race asap and start a race towards tanks a.o. by building factories and coal plant

 

[meldor]

Empty armies or partially filled armies can go in the ships. Build (rush) a few and send them with a single unit in them and then fill them after landing.

 

[meldor]

Rush or disband old (un-needed units).

 

[Aggie]

Good tips meldor.

EDIT: But the Military Academy takes us 10 turns to build.

 

[Grimjack]

Ack. My mistake. I didn't realize galleon wern't up to the task of shipping Hussars.
I agree it will be impractical to invade India in this case. Ack hindsight is always better, isn't it ?

Be aware of the 30-ish Sipahis should you manage to go to war against the Ottomans.

Grimjack

 

[Aggie]

It's 1285 AD and I shipped 23 regular Hussars and one army (this one had only three Hussars ) But I noticed infantry in Lahore. What now? Should I still continue? It will be a slaughter but we are at 61%, needing 71 tiles more (57% population though).

I'd say yes, but note that we will lose a lot of troops.

 

[Grimjack]

71 tiles is about four cities ?
Then we only need to last that long before we are gassed.

I suspect having some 12-15 Hussars per city ought to be enough. In my experience 3 cavalry per infantry in a size 6+ city is enough. Be sure to have enough forces available to actually capture/raze the city.

Be sure to save the army, until you get another, tempting it might be to use it.

It will be bloody, but we accepted that when we used the variant rules of no artillery support.

I say go for it, but be conservative, as it is easy to get streaks when the odds are low.

Also, even if we only get to raze 1-2 cities, we will haev hurt the Indians, and could get a jump of a couple of techs in a peacedeal.

Grimjack

 

[Aggie]

IT: The Ottomans start ToE.

Turn 1 (1255 AD) 3 Galleons are rushed. I can't demand the Otto's to leave.

Turn 2 (1260 AD) We have 3 galleons and 1 other is rushed. The Otto's are again not near our territory.

IT: Ottomans finish Universal Suffrage.

Turn 3 (1265 AD) Galleon completed. 2 others rushed. Through railroading 5 Ottoman cities are within striking distance of our Hussars. But the Ottomans are not tresspasing

Turn 4 (1270 AD) Vienna and Salzburg finish the factories. We have 5 galleons, 2 more are rushed. Within 2 turns we will have 10. That should be enough to invade.

We have 58% of the world and 55% of the population.

Turn 5 (1275 AD) New expansion brings our empire to 61%. Our peace with the Ottomans can now officially be cancelled, but we still have a deal for 11 turns

Turn 6 (1280 AD) Galleons sail west

IT: I now see Ottoman infantry

Turn 7 (1285 AD) One of our armies has only 3 units and can travel with a galleon The Indians have infantry as well
Still I ask India to leave our land and they do so. So I declare war instead. I draw in the Ottomans for 304 gold and world map. Seven galleons full of Hussars (with one army) land on the coast.

I see no reason to stay backward, so I buy Electricity for 148 gpt and Replaceable Parts for 150 gpt from the Ottomans. Imho we need the infantry in India to defend our territory. We have two rubber and two unconnected. Both India and the Ottomans have 1. At least we know what to pillage now.

IT: India doesn't attack our SoD

Turn 8 (1290 AD)

The battle of Lahore:
-Hussar army takes a little beating (still 8 hitpoints), but kills inf in Lahore.
-Vet Hussar - vet inf: 0 - 4; Hussar killed
-Vet Hussar - Vet Inf: 3 - 4; Hussar killed, infantry promotes
-Vet Hussar - Reg Inf: 1 - 2; Hussar retreats
-Vet Hussar - Reg Inf: 2 - 4; Hussar killed, Infantry promotes
-Vet Hussar - 3 hp vet Inf: 1 - 4; Hussar killed, Infantry promotes
-Vet Hussar - 3 hp elite inf: 0 - 3; Hussar retreats
-Vet Hussar - 3 hp elite inf: 0 - 3; Hussar retreats
-Vet Hussar - 3 hp elite inf: 0 - 3; Hussar retreats
-Vet Hussar - 3 hp elite inf: 0 - 4; Hussar killed
-Vet Hussar - 3 hp elite inf: 1 - 3; Hussar retreated
-Elite Hussar - 2 hp reg inf: 3 - 2; Infantry killed
-Elite Hussar - 2 hp vet inf: 0 - 4; Hussar retreats
-Elite Hussar - 2 hp vet inf: 2 - 2; Inf killed
-Elite Hussar - 2 hp elite inf: 2 - 0; Inf dead, guerilla appears.
-Elite Hussar - vet guerilla: 3 - 5; Hussar killed, unfortified two hitpoint infantry appears
-Elite Hussar - 2 hp inf: 2 - 0; Inf killed, vet cavalry shows up.
-Elite Hussar - vet cav: 4 - 3; Cav killed, redlined guerilla should be last defense.
-Vet Hussar - redlined guerilla: 1 - 0; Guerilla is killed and we take Lahore with Magellan.

In the end 6 Hussars were killed vs 5 infantry, 1 guerilla and 1 cavalry.

Our settler and defense need one turn, so we keep the city for now. No wait, Magellan gives us extra movement! I sell all improvements and then abandon Lahore. Eisenstadt replaces it. Barracks rushed. I also sent a few muskets, who didn't leave our borders

IT: India sends four cavalry and an infantry, but doesn't attack Eisenstadt.

Turn 9 (1295 AD) Rubber of the Indians pillaged by the Hussar army. This army returns to the mountain near Eisenstadt.

4 Hussars kill 4 cavalry, but no leader Vet Hussar redlines an infantry but is killed. Elite Hussar kills it, no leader.
Extra troops transported to Eisenstadt. It has 7 muskets now. Temple is ordered next, a flip would be a disaster.

IT: 5 infantry and 3 guerilla enter our territory near Eisenstadt. Pirates sink two of our Galleons.

Turn 10 (1300 AD)

We have a lot of troops in Eisenstadt, so I attack the SoD close to us:
-Vet Hussar vs vet Inf: 1 - 3; Guerilla fires, Hussar retreats
-Vet Hussar vs vet Inf: 1 - 3; Guerilla fires, Hussar retreats
-Vet Hussar vs vet Inf: 4 - 0; Guerilla fires, Inf killed
-Vet Hussar vs vet Inf: 4 - 0; Inf killed
-Vet Hussar vs vet Inf: 0 - 3; Hussar retreats
-Vet Hussar vs vet Inf: 0 - 3; Hussar retreats
-Vet Hussar vs vet Inf: 0 - 3; Hussar retreats
-Vet Hussar vs vet Inf: 1 - 4; Hussar killed
-Vet Hussar vs reg Inf: 0 - 3; Hussar retreats
-Vet Hussar vs reg inf: 3 - 0; Inf killed, Hussar promotes
-Vet Hussar vs reg Inf: 3 - 3; Inf killed, Hussar promotes
-Vet Hussar vs 3 hp vet Inf: 1 - 3; Hussar retreats
-Elite Hussar vs 2 hp Inf: 2 - 4; Infantry killed, no leader
-Elite Hussar vs reg guerilla: 3 - 2; Guerilla killed, no leader
-Elite Hussar vs reg guerilla: 3 - 1; Guerilla killed, no leader
-4 hp Elite Hussar vs reg guerilla: 3 - 2; Guerilla killed, no leader.

We cleared our territory, but no leader. 1 Hussar was killed, which makes it very worthwhile.

I have traded with the Ottomans, because I figure that it is not wise to attack them before tanks. Also, grabbing land from India might be enough to win.
We have 62% of the land and 57% of the population.

To the next leader:
-We should be able to win it by crippling India. I lost relatively few units vs size 12 cities with infantry and guerilla. It's good to have retreat capability.
-I have placed an army on the mountaintop next to Eisenstadt. Both to prevent the Indians from doing that and also to have an eye on the rubber tile.
-We have a lot of troops in Eisenstadt and I think that only a flip could make us lose it. We can continue the assault soon, but we should be careful!
-I was very careful with the army and our elite Hussars. I always started the attacks with the veterans.
-Inida has no Saltpeter (no Cavalry). They do have one horse and iron, but those seem to far away for the army. I think that guarding that mountain is very important.
-Our core has almost no military left, except for a few musket and a heavily fortified border with the Ottomans.
-We need 51 more tiles. A couple of them will come from border expansion (like Evora). Population is the biggest issue.
-GET US LEADERS

1300 AD save

 

[Aggie]

Eisenstadt:

Victory Screen: