LK69 - Babylon - 80K challenge

[microbe]

The other thing is the fact that the ToE invariably would speed tech up for everyone, as they would demand the techs from us, and we would have no choice but to cave.

Indeed, if we want to get ToE within 24 turns, we'd have to research Medicine and Sci Meth, which would speed up the tech pace.

On the other hand we could continue min research on Industrialization and complete US. Maybe that's a better idea.

 

[Karasu]

Well, we could also slow down our research somewhat, so that we discover Sci Meth in 24 turns -I can't look at numbers as I am posting from my work PC, where shamefully I haven't got any Civ installed...

That should not speed up the tech pace too much. Additionally, I still believe that selling techs to the AI is the most effective way we have right now to slow down their research.

 

[LKendter]

Pollution? I guess that's from our shakespear city?

With it being size 13, it suffers from excess people pollution.

============

First let me state that I agree with you, as I generally don't care much about US, but always persue ToE fully.

LK implied he wanted US for the culture it would garner

I caught factories have just appeared. If the pre-build in Nineveh is close to 320 shields we could make it a factory. Nineveh with a factory should beat any AI to suffrage. In fact, if we merge in a couple more workers...

We could then start another pre-build to plan to ToE. This is ONLY emperor. The odds are good we can get both. I hope we can suck a lot of money from the AI for Atomic Theory.

============

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
SesnOfWthr
Ankka (out June 17th to June 27th)
Karasu (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

 

[Karasu]

Oh, by the way, I got it.

 

[Karasu]

Pre-turn
Get World Map, little gold and a Worker from Rome for Economics

Wow, great job improving our corner of the world!

Purchase Industrialization from Vikings for 82 gpt plus 50 gp, Ivory and Furs, then set research to Medicine at 30% (due in 12); this the max rate we can afford without going negative. We are making +66 gpt now.
I then sell it to the Mongols for 481 gp (all their gold). The Mongols seem not to be able to sustain gpt payment now -good news.
Nineveh can actually build a factory in three turns. The Zulu wanted more money, and there is always the chance that the Vikings declare war again -even though I wouldn't think it is too likely, not with the gpt deal and with our military now being rated as 'average' compared to theirs.

We should not run long periods at zero science in my opinion, not at least until we are sure that we will get ToE. We are now most likely financing their research, thus increasing the tech pace.
I believe instead that we should try to stay one-two techs ahead, if we want to control the pace -it is probably a bit too early to stop researching altogether.

During the turns, I mainly rushed what buildings I could (priority to culture, of course).
Completing a couple of Banks/Marketplaces allows increase of science rate.

It seems that I cannot upgrade Pikemen to Rifles -that's probably because without Saltpeter the upgrade path through Musketmen is broken. I built a few Rifles and spread them to defend our cities, but we do need more.

1365 AD
Electricity has been around for a few turns now. Medicine is coming in 2 -hopefully we will be able to trade it for Electricity.

Sell Industrialization to Aztecs for 80 gold and 39 gpt
A Viking Knight appears on our border with Zulus. Guess what it means...

1370 AD
Vikings declare on us...
Viking Knight attacks New Babylon and kills an Elite Ancient Cav (why didn't the Pike step up to defend?).
Dispose of the Scandinavian Knight.

Someone discovered Medicine, just one turn ahead of us. The Aztecs haven't got it. Hopefully we will be able to trade with them next turn.

The Vikings have a four Berserk-two Riflemen stack approaching the Izibia-Nippur-New Babylon border.
Switch Izibia to Walls (loosing a few shields, but then...)

Our culture is 28571 (+415 points from last turn)


Other notes
Uruk is on US.

The Aztecs will take Medicine for Electricity, but they will want our luxuries too. I leave the deal on the table.
Zulus also have a tradeable Saltpeter.

We have enough troops to defend that border, although I don't like our military in that area. I placed the cannons in a central position and tried to send there what we could spare from other cities, but couldn't do too much.

*** Good luck! ***

 

[LKendter]

Vikings declare on us...

What the?????????? I never thought it would occur this soon.

=====================================

We are now most likely financing their research, thus increasing the tech pace.
I believe instead that we should try to stay one-two techs ahead, if we want to control the pace -it is probably a bit too early to stop researching altogether.

This is where our team is working together the worse. I still completely disagree with research. You often have all the AIs wasting there time research the SAME tech. The human player will usually research a DIFFERENT path. This results in increasing the tech pace IMHO.

We still have a long time for 80K to kick in. We how bad we have been doing with resources; we could easily be without oil or rubber. Take a look at LK67 for how painful that was.

=====================================

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe
SesnOfWthr (on deck)
Ankka (out June 17th to June 27th)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

 

[Karasu]

Well, yes, that was really strange -and they were getting some money too!
The only explanation at this point is that they have something with you -they only seem to attack when your turnset is about...


I agree with you that we haven't found a common approach to research, and I take your point on the speeding up the pace if we actively contribute to it. Actually, I completely agree with it.

Besides, it is very important for me to play a SG as a team experience, so I do apologize if I gave the impression of playing against this kind of spirit.
Actually, I am certainly at fault for not making clear enough what is my opinion on this specific issue -you know, sometimes time just isn't there and one posts updates in a bit of a hurry...

So -I totally agree that we have to slow down the tech pace, especially now that we have basicly all the techs we need for culture.
With that in mind, should we keep on researching or not...

No. The reason not to do any research is quite clear: shutting science down will net us enough gpt to rush culture building and upgrade our military.

Yes. My fear is that if we stop research, we end up slowing down our research alone, while the AI go too far ahead for us to be able to ever catch up. Which will mean:
- Our military will soon become obsolete compared to theirs, whence increasing likelihood of an attack;
- Our only hope that the AI slow down their research is that they start wars or that they research the same techs. This will work at times during the game, but it is totally beyond our control: when the AIs are at peace and research different techs (for instance, at the end of the Middle Ages) the pace will speed up, and our dropping out of the tech race will not help us slow it down.
- We can actually slow down their research if we drain their money -for instance, by selling techs. This requires finding a difficult balance, because we do risk speeding up things after all.
And things will certainly become really messy once we start reaching the Industrial Age...

In the present case, I think that we should make an effort to build ToE first, and get Replaceable Parts + another tech.
We can surely research Scientific Method at low science, timing it properly with the prebuild.
After we discover ToE, we can use our two-tech lead to make money or simply shut down and wait for the AIs to catch up.
This is why I disagreed with stopping research before; what happens after will have to be reassessed: if our culture grows fast enough, we might even let them go at that point -as Infantry and Artillery will let us defend very effectively our borders for a long time.

Anyway, I'm fine with whatever the collective decision is going to be

 

[SesnOfWthr]

I'd agree that RP is the last important tech for a while. IMO, we should try to get that and shut everything down after.

BTW - I had no problem upgrading pikes to rifles during my ten.

 

[Arathorn]

The upgrade thing is probably a cash issue. Upgrading a pike to rifle costs (80-30)*3 = 150 gold. If Karasu was spending a lot of gold on culture rushes, he might not have had the 150 gold around. Or it was a barracks issue, but I doubt that was it.

You certainly can upgrade from A to C in a chain of A->B->C even if you don't have the resources for B (heck you don't even need the resources for A -- just for C).

Arathorn

 

[LKendter]

1375 AD (pre-turn)
Why is Uruk building Suffrage in 36 turn? Nineveh can build it in 23 turns. I switch Uruk to factory, and Nineveh to Suffrage.

I am not happy with the placement of New Uruk. This was place on my grey X zone to NOT build a city. I manage to salvage 12 tiles for both the nearby cities, so I grudgingly keep it.

I ship the Aztecs Medicine, Furs, and Ivory. I get Electricity, wm, $46, and $2/turn in return.

The price is brutal, but I ship the Zulu $100/turn and get Saltpeter. I want more cavalry built.

I switch science to Scientific Method at 10%. I want to have a better idea of the pre-build time before deciding the final rate.
(IT) Viking and Rome trade embargo us.


1380 AD
I merge two workers into Nineveh, and the Suffrage ETA drops to 19 turns.

Lack of elite units is making leader fishing hard. I do manage to at least get another elite cavalry. I kill the Viking stack inside our borders losing 1 cavalry, and 1 ac.


1390 AD
One picture is worth a thousand words:

We know have a victorious cavalry army. The heroic epic is due in 8 turns in Babylon.

(IT) ARGGGGGGGG! We lose our source of horses as the Mongols and Scandinavia ally against us. Well $100/turn flushed down the toilet for saltpeter....


1400 AD
Scandinavia simply declares war on the Aztecs. I very stupid move since he has some cities on the Aztec continent.


1405 AD
Our pillaging army finds out that the Vikings have infantry

I dial up the Zulu and get replaceable parts for Ivory, Furs and $131/turn. I stare at the map in total utter disgust as I find out we have no rubber.
(IT) Rome and Scandinavia sign an MPP.
: Hmm: Do I smell a source of coal?
Rome declares war. This will get interesting - NOT!


1410 AD
I dial up the Aztecs and find out I can get Rubber for dyes and $42/turn. I don't bother yet, as we don't have enough spare cash to upgrade at the moment.



Summary:
This is the worse resource shaft I have had in my life.

The army is returning home, as I have spotted Viking infantry heading out way.

I can't believe the Vikings still won't talk.

I want the military academy in our #1 shield city - Nineveh.

The pre-build palace in Uruk is for ToE. We may complete the tech shortly before the pre-build has enough shields.

Once the war with the Vikings is over this is our target. We should punish the Romans and get a source of coal. We have enough units, including the army to easily raze Neapolis. DON'T try to steal the salt. That would leave the Zulu with none as we are importing one of the two from them. That increases the war risk, and our military is paper thin at the moment.

Culture is not an issue at this time. The Mongols appear mobilized, and are barely building culture. Our lead is increasing at this time.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
SesnOfWthr (on deck)
Ankka (out June 17th to June 27th)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1425AD.zip

 

[microbe]

Got it.....

 

[microbe]

preturn: culture wise we are rising. We have 32818 and Mongols has 15081.

We are paying a lot to the AI!

MM Carchemish to build factory in 21 turns instead of 30, but only at 1fpt.

IBT Heroic Epic -> Factory. Palace expansion.

(1)1430AD: Vikings agree to talk but ask for 100g.

Culture wise we are 33256 (438cpt) vs Mongols 15180 (99cpt).

We have a settler which is not needed. Send to merge in our Shakespear city.

(2)1435AD: Vikings uploaded a cav which we kill immediately.

IBT Rome offers peace and pays us 8g + 1gpt, and I have to accept. Viking cav loses to our cav.

(3)1440AD: Mongols also agree to talk. I pay 20g.

The funny thing is, Vikings and Rome have MPP. So..I attack viking units in Zulu territory, but MPP is not triggered. Maybe next turn? We kill 2 cavs but lose one.

We can get horses by dyes+50gpt, or rubber by dyes+43gpt. I debate with myself and decide to buy the rubber, as we'll mostly play defensively, and saltpeter will expire in 7 turns.

Upgrade 7 rifles to infantry.

IBT: damn, vikings offer straight up peace too! We get 60g for peace.

(4)1445AD: merge the settler and we get US one turn earlier.

Zulu has Corporation.

(5)1450AD: ZZZ

(6)1455AD: Zulu has Sci Method! I don't think we'll get both US and ToE now. So I buy Sci Method from Zulu with 17gpt. Sci Method to Aztecs for incense + Espionage + 6g + WM. To Mongols for 44g + 48gpt + WM. We could also get horses but now almost all our cities are busy with factories, so it's not a good timing to get it.

If we get US (in 4 turns), we'll build ToE in 12 turns, which I don't think is fast enough. So I switch US to ToE losing 77 shields, and will switch the ToE prebuild to Intelligence Agency (it cannot build Hoover).

IBT we get Atomic Theory and Electronics.

(7)1460AD: Ninevsh starts Hoover due in 25.

I sell Atomic Theory to Zulu for Corporation, 2206g and 159gpt (full price). I suspect this guy will sneak attack us, but I make the deal anyway. Corporation now cannot get horses from Mongols.

I set min research to ironclads.

Short rush some factories.

(8)1465AD: Hire many civil engineers. Keep rushing some improvements.

(9)1470AD: Zulu has Steel. Our culture is 36842 vs Mongols 16484.

(10)1475AD: Our culture is 37306 (464cpt) vs Mongols 16584 (100cpt). Victory in 93 turns (year 1888?) We are definitely safe from space race.

I'm building harbor in our capital. It's starving right now.

Our 100gpt deal for saltpeter expires this turn. If we don't renew, beaware of Zulu and get our defense up in the north cities. Rushing units might be better than culture?

I forgot to plant spies. We should do so to Vikings and Rome, hoping them to declare war on us. There is a settler in New Babylon in case we could settle the coal in Rome.

Do not sell Electronics before the cascade ends!

 

[LKendter]

Comments will be written up later...

===========================

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
SesnOfWthr (on deck)
Ankka (out June 17th to June 27th)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

 

[LKendter]

We have a settler which is not needed.

Sooner or later the Zulu and Viking should go to war. Perhaps the Romans will be an idiot again and get into war. Whatever the circumstance we should settlers ready to vulture key areas.

==================================

IBT Rome offers peace and pays us 8g + 1gpt, and I have to accept.

It sucks as we don't get the coal, but nothing can be done about it. I can't even comprehend going into the era of tanks and not having a rail-net built.

==================================

The funny thing is, Vikings and Rome have MPP. So I attack Viking units in Zulu territory, but MPP is not triggered.

An MPP getting tripped requires you attack the AI territory. Some type of action needed to occur inside the Viking borders. One lousy bombard ship would have been enough...

==================================

(6)1455AD: Zulu has Sci Method! I don't think we'll get both US and ToE now.

This is very disappointing news. I was unhappy when I found during my turn that Nineveh wasn't building Suffrage. The workers should have been merged in long before my turn. With this only being emperor I really felt we could have gotten both.
Of course, if we had coal this would have been a non-debate.

==================================

(7)1460AD: Nineveh starts Hoover due in 25.

After this please build the military academy. We can't avoid more wars with the Vikings, and I would really like a more armies.

==================================

Rushing units might be better than culture?

Well I concentrate on upgrading our veteran pikes and rifles to infantry. With 2 infantry in every CORE coastal town the Berserk threat is over.

==================================

I forgot to plant spies. We should do so to Vikings and Rome, hoping them to declare war on us. There is a settler in New Babylon in case we could settle the coal in Rome.

I would hold off until the factory push is done, and we have more units heading toward the border.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

OK, I got it.

I got behhind in a couple of SG's due to a disappointing concert last night, but I'll certainly do my best to get to this tonight.

 

[microbe]

Well I concentrate on upgrading our veteran pikes and rifles to infantry. With 2 infantry in every CORE coastal town the Berserk threat is over.

I upgraded a bunch too.

I think we can draft some from the north corrupted towns. Put those conscripts in inland cities and free up some vet infantry to coastal. Quite a few cities are empty.

 

[LKendter]

I upgraded a bunch too.

I think we can draft some from the north corrupted towns. Put those conscripts in inland cities and free up some vet infantry to coastal. Quite a few cities are empty.

I agree - the interior cities can just have warm bodies. I would even draft from the mostly corrupted cities.

 

[SesnOfWthr]

Sorry to seem like a newb, but I figure it's better to ask now than screw up the game later....

I have never had the occasion to use drafting. Are there any finer points I should be aware of? Does it cost pop? Does it cause unhappiness? Should I only do it once per town, or something to that effect, or can I use it repeatedly?

 

[microbe]

Yes it costs one pop, and like pop rushing, it causes unhappiness. So doing it once per town every 20 turns is OK. If the citizens are very happy anyway (we have a lot of happiness improvement), you can draft more. Note there is a "draft rate" for each government type. Democracy is 1, meaning you can only draft once per town in one turn.

Only do it in corrupted towns/cities, of course.

 

[LKendter]

It also requires a larger city. You can't draft out of size 2 cities. I forget of the top of my head if the city needs 6 or 7 pop to draft.