LK96 - RaR, Polynesia, Island Hopping

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Get Philo. get classical ed. Start the trading. Philo gets us civil engineering and 50 gold from the Sioux. Since Osman doesn't know anyone to know better, he gives us aristocracy, 5gpt, and 6 gold. Snag code of Laws,

Just a hint: You can use The Big Picture after learning Philo to enter F4, and trade Philo around; you should have been able to get CoL, and this would have allowed you to take Demo as free tech.
Demo is worth a lot for trading; and, ClassEd is something the AI is reluctant to research, so you have a good chance to get that one first anyway.

But maybe you knew this already, and had a good reason for your choice .

 

[romeothemonk]

I was just following orders Doc. I really don't normally go for Demo myself, so I really never try and get it. I know of the trick, but wasn't really thinking of using it here.

 

[LKendter]

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Sanabas (on deck)
Meldor
Microbe
Romeothemonk

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[LKendter]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK96-750BC.zip

1000 BC
I hate phony wars and give France Seafaring for peace and $6.

This is turning out to be very ugly. Our land grab is going very poorly. We share a continent with a single civ and have cities with defense one units. This is NOT the game for a farmer's gambit. I can't even swap the capitol off of the settler without throwing away shields.


975 BC
(IT) I gladly give the Ottomans $53 to go away.


950 BC
Hiva is formed to claim horses.


925 BC
Poetry and $40 go to the Sioux for Democracy.
Poetry goes to the Vikings for Elephant Training and $40.
Poetry and $70 go to the Ottomans for Polytheism.
I sell Poetry to Korea for $75.
(IT) The Aztecs complete the Hanging Gardens.


875 BC
The last 2 settlers worth build have completed, and I order up a revolt.


825 BC
Fata Huka is formed.


775 BC
The France completed the Mausoleum of Mausollos.


750 BC
Ua Pou and Tonga are formed.

I cash rush the monument in Hiva. We need to build up culture in the overlap cities.

==========================


Summary:
We must go 100% on production boasting and ramping up for war with the Ottomans. IMO this game will be lost if we don't prepare for war ASAP.

We don't want cities behind the Ottomans lines. IMO the expansion phase is over.

Please use cash heavily to rush buildings. A harbor lets Ua Pou grow more. We need the culture from moments, and we need production boasters. Of course, we also badly need troops.


Signed up:
LKendter
Sanabas (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)
Microbe
Romeothemonk

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[LKendter]

This is the final empire until the first Ottoman war.

 

[sanabas]

Got it. 10chars.

 

[meldor]

I am at turn 0 and here is some major weed:

Pioneers cost 3 pop!!!

My bad! Fortunately, I had MMed it to complete on your turn so there was no waste yet. Still adjusting to RaRs differences and swapping back and forth.

 

[Bezhukov]

lurker comment: another LK game suffering in the early game from too-sparse city placement - consider how many low corruption tiles are unworked...

 

[microbe]

lurker comment: another LK game suffering in the early game from too-sparse city placement - consider how many low corruption tiles are unworked...

Bezhukov, I've read such comments from you twice. Please refrain from using such words when you comment on other's games. It's just a play style issue. This is not a training game and we all know the basics.

 

[Bezhukov]

This isn't about the basics. It's not an obvious thing, but its obviously causing a great deal of consternation. I enjoy learning how to improve my game from the guidance of folks like T_McC, LK (he's taught me a lot), and Doc. I watch the advanced players play and see tighter cities and better tile utilization, just pointing that difference out.

If you don't want to engage in the conversation, your choice, others may feel differently. I wouldn't be surprised if LK backed you up here - while considering some different city placements in future games.

Of course, your biggest problem here is the same we had on Bed3 - non-AGR civ with lack of food bonuses, so city placement is of secondary concern.

 

[microbe]

I watch the advanced players play and see tighter cities and better tile utilization

Words like "another LK game suffering", "advanced players use tighter cities" are not only incorrect, but quite offensive in my opinion. You obviously have not read enough games that Lee, myself and others played. We do use tighter builds a lot, based on different scenarios.

If you want to start a conversation, consider starting it with a less tutoring tone and you'll be more welcomed.

 

[Bezhukov]

"Advanced" means Sir Pleb, Bamspeedy, T_McC, folks on the HoF. I know they're advanced compared to me, YMMV. I try to learn from them so I don't continue to struggle with the same things over and over. In many aspects of the game, I consider LK advanced compared to me.

I've been reading the LK series for about 20 games now, and the pattern is clear. Early game struggle with some interesting late comebacks. Some of this is difficult variants, but it's become clear that some is leaving low-corruption tiles unworked. That's not just my opinion, it's what I see looking at the HoF games. You are free to ignore this observation or consider some adjustments. One thing about LK, he's not afraid to tell you what he thinks - I'm following his example.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

lurker's comment: Not trying to attack you Bez, but not all of LK's games are early game fallbacks and late game riseups. I can think of one AW game (LK74-ish) as the Aztecs where they had given a couple civs the early boot. While in my opinion LK uses a looser build than some others (yet still allowing for around 12 - 18 tiles per city, which is a good amount, since most Deity level games last at least to Sanitation), if it works out well, which it almost always does, it's fine. Every Deity game you will fall behind at least slightly in the early game, so grabbing as much land as you can is important, and a looser build helps achieve that.

RaR is a bit different, but in all the regular games I've seen LK run, I've never seen an unused tile not accessible by any city. And the late game is when a majority of comebacks usually are made, when you can get an upperhand on the AI.

PS: HoF games can have less opponents, and have settler factories almost every game, so they aren't the *greatest* for learning, nonetheless, still good to look at. Just my comments ... someday I'll play in this series.

 

[ThERat]

lurker's comment:

guys, isn't the beauty of SG's that everyone of us has a different style?
I consider LK as one of the players, who plays commited and puts his heart into the turns. His style might be different from others, that's good. If we all would play the same way here or force each other to do so, well, we might as well play alone.
We obviously decided to play SG's and thus, have to accept that everyone has a somewhat diferent style. I can see that in all the games I am involved in.
What is the downside of SG's? That some poeple try to lecture others, though the player made clear the choices and reasons of the turnsets.
Not accetable in my mind is also a rushed style of play, that defeats the purpose as well. In such a case, LK would not mind to speak his mind, which is good.
We all want to learn a thing or two, and above all, have a good laugh and fun playing here, it's a game. So, folks, relax and enjoy the game and have a laugh, would you?

 

[Bezhukov]

Thanks for the input, GA. I seem to have a way of rubbing Microbe the wrong way, but what's to be done? I enjoy discussing different strategies, and if it comes across as lecturing, one has only to look at my own SG performances to see I'm in no place to lecture. My favorite thing about LK's style is how it is constantly evolving to adapt to new situations. Hope mine can too. My play style before finding SG's can be found in the current Gnomes of Zurich thread, so its been fun learning the more violent side of Civ.

Not sure how best to express it, but I've found that RandR takes a different early game (pre-irrigation) approach than unmodded, since unless they are working food bonus tiles or shield-less grassland, cities grow more slowly the larger they get. The only way around this is the free city square that requires no food, so tight builds with a larger number of cities seems to work better.

AW games require tight builds for other reasons, but if my theory is correct, it is no surprise that the LK series has had more success (or faster success - nobody circles the wagons like LK) in these sorts of games.

 

[meldor]

"Advanced" means Sir Pleb, Bamspeedy, T_McC, folks on the HoF. I know they're advanced compared to me, YMMV. I try to learn from them so I don't continue to struggle with the same things over and over. In many aspects of the game, I consider LK advanced compared to me.

I've been reading the LK series for about 20 games now, and the pattern is clear. Early game struggle with some interesting late comebacks. Some of this is difficult variants, but it's become clear that some is leaving low-corruption tiles unworked. That's not just my opinion, it's what I see looking at the HoF games. You are free to ignore this observation or consider some adjustments. One thing about LK, he's not afraid to tell you what he thinks - I'm following his example.

We go with tight city build in AWE games and looser builds in the others. This is a preference that LK has and as players in his games we go with his desires. While I agree that tighter builds make for more tiles used earlier it also cramps the cities later on. While my hat is off to those that are in the HoF (to be honest I have never even looked at the games), I don't like palying that style. Heck if I want to win every game hands down I would just go ICS and roll over the AI in the early ages. If you don't think it can be done lokk back a couple of games in Arathorn's games where they tool it to the AI in an OCC and the game was over early. I don't play the GOTM or the Ladder games because I don't like playing the style of game that they play and you have to play to compete. Just as we restrict ourselves to certainn moves (No RoP rape and other exploits) we also put other restriction on our playstyle. It is what makes the games more interesting and the idea isn't to have perfect games in every way. It is to have fun and enjoy the gaem together, not compete.

 

[sanabas]

750BC: All good, but we're a long way behind on techs. My 2 cents on our city placement: We've got some tiles near Haraiki that aren't in any city radius, I'll be putting a city there. Also, how come Fata Huka wasn't 1 tile S? Manihi won't be able to work that square without irrigating hills, and Fata Huka is struggling for food, and would go much better built on a hill with access to a grassland, rather than built on the grassland.

730: Aztecs build The Oracle
I buy Barding & Currency off Korea for 430 gold, then sell them to the Aztecs for Iron Working, Monotheism & 5 gold.
I can only see 1 Iron on our island, on tundra on the N coast. the Ottomans don't have it yet, but probably will soon.
Most AIs are still ahead on tech with Military Tradition & Monasticism

710: zzz

690: France builds Great Lighthouse

670: Upgrade a Tribal Guard

650: zzz

630: Research Drama ---> Literature
Trade Drama around, get Lateen Sail, Military Training, Monasticism & 250 gold

610: Ottomans build Slave trade in Istanbul

590: America extort Code of Laws, they're well behind on tech so I cave.
Ottomans build Great Wall in Izmit , at least we know which city is going first in the ottoman war
Ahe founded

570, 550: zzz

 

[Bezhukov]

Thanks for clueing me in, Meldor. I hadn't intended for this to be a "my play style is better than yours" thing, but it seems doomed to be read that way. LK has seemed frustrated with the situations he's been in and I was attempting to suggest an alternative. I don't do ICS either, but I'll have some "unit cities" that don't build infra and that are disbanded in the late game when their tiles are needed by the cities that do build infra. This alleviates somewhat the "infra vs. units" dilemma that has been popping up a lot in LK games, and works especially well in RandR, where there is so much variation in optimal city sizes between early and late game.

 

[LKendter]

I will comment in general on the whole conversion around the Bezhukov comments. IMO Bezhukov has cross the bounds of lurking. Lurkers should be making comments to answer specific questions, not trying to argue for a particular game play style. There is still a large learning curve for the whole team in RaR. The journey is more fun without outside interference.

We've got some tiles near Haraiki that aren't in any city radius, I'll be putting a city there.

I am baffled by this comment. What are the new tiles gained? I can only find green dot for a new potential tile gained.
Tile A is really needed by Manihi. Tile B is needed to give Haraiki maximum shields.

Ahe is now our second best city from a rank corruption standpoint. Why do we want our second best corruption city to be a city with almost no shields? I am very tempted to abandon this city right now. It won't last the game as hit has far too much overlap with other cities.

Also, how come Fata Huka wasn't 1 tile S? ... Fata Huka is struggling for food

.
I saw two grassland tiles once the borders expanded. That is why I had a monument started and wanted it cash rushed. I was looking at the full 21. We can even clear the forest at some point for a third grassland tile. IMO that is much better long term then one grassland tile.


Signed up:
LKendter
Sanabas
Meldor (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
Romeothemonk

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[Bezhukov]

Well, that's twice now I've crossed an LK line , and I don't relish finding out what happens upon the third strike.

Henceforth, I'll reserve my comments for games in which I am actually playing. Wish you the best on this one!