LK96 - RaR, Polynesia, Island Hopping

[sanabas]

I am baffled by this comment. What are the new tiles gained? I can only find green dot for a new potential tile gained.
Tile A is really needed by Manihi. Tile B is needed to give Haraiki maximum shields.

Ahe is now our second best city from a rank corruption standpoint. Why do we want our second best corruption city to be a city with almost no shields? I am very tempted to abandon this city right now. It won't last the game as hit has far too much overlap with other cities.

Not talking about tile A or B. It picks up the tile the city is on, and 1 sea tile as well. Manihi can't generate enough food to work all those hills & mountains, and Haraiki will generate a massive amount of food once we have irrigation and won't need to work either the corn or the square 1 NE of the corn. That means Ahe will be approx size 6 or 7 with more base shields than Haraiki without stopping Haraiki from growing, and without using tiles that Manihi could. That won't change until we can plant forest. We've got the same problem to the N of Haraiki, with a grass and a sea that can't be worked by any city. I can't understand leaving tiles in our core unable to be worked.

Done a little bit of maths now, when we have irrigation, Manihi will have 27 food from 6 water (18), 1 grass (4), 2 hills (2) and the city square (3). That will leave it static at size 9, with 11 base shields. I think corn is +2 food, which will give Ahe approx 15 (2 hills, 1 mountain & 2 in city square) base shields at size 6, and we'll still have hill tiles & a gems tile unworked. I expect Ahe & Tikei to become our highest production cities. Hopefully that clears the bafflement, even if you disagree with the logic.

.

I saw two grassland tiles once the borders expanded. That is why I had a monument started and wanted it cash rushed. I was looking at the full 21. We can even clear the forest at some point for a third grassland tile. IMO that is much better long term then one grassland tile.

Fair enough. I still disagree, for the same logic as above. Fata Huka 1 SW and another city 1N of the forest would cause less wastage & be more efficient than the current placement IMO.

 

[LKendter]

Sounds like I need to get back to detailed dot mapping so that the team agrees on city sites. The trouble is our start area SUCKED for additional cities.


@Sanabas - Sounds like the problem is we have very different city placement style. I hate building cities that can't get much above size 6 or 7. I want to get at least 12 tiles in play long-term.

As for the Ahe city - I will have to agree to disagree.


@Team - don't forget Elephant riders can lay roads. Please put them to work until we are close to the Ottoman war.

 

[sanabas]

The trouble is our start area SUCKED for additional cities.

Yeah, I think Haraiki needed to be 2 NE of its current spot, to get both food and shields. The hills area to the NE doesn't have good spots for cities, even extra long term with both railroad & fisheries Manihi can only reach size 10 without irrigating hills.

@Sanabas - Sounds like the problem is we have very different city placement style. I hate building cities that can't get much above size 6 or 7. I want to get at least 12 tiles in play long-term.

As for the Ahe city - I will have to agree to disagree.

Yeah, I think we do. I don't like cities that can't get beyond 7 long term, but I really hate having wasted tiles in the core long term.

Ditto about the elephant riders, they're more efficient than workers/peasants too, they complete grassland road in 1 turn.

 

[meldor]

I see it and it is in the queue

 

[LKendter]

Meldor is still within 48 hours. However, I don't want the game lost on page 2.

 

[LKendter]

I just got an email from Meldor that he has the flu and needs to skip in his current games.

Signed up:
LKendter
Sanabas
Meldor
Microbe (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[microbe]

Got it .

 

[microbe]

preturn: why are we researching Literature? We are not going to build GL and we can't trade for Dark Ages. We don't even know how backward we are.

Barding+Philosophy to France for two luxes.

Establish embassy with America by 35g. How pathetic it is: size-1 which is a clown.

530BC: Two AIs know Lit. Great. I buy with 48g. Sell to Sioux for Horse Breeding+12g.

Dark Age in 4 turns.

Our boat spots a tundra island with iron.

510BC: Sell Lit to get Mounted Archery from Ottomans.

470BC: Dark Age -> Theology in 7. Korea starts GL.

450BC: Lit could get us Invention from Aztecs. Unexpected. I up lux to 10 as capital grows and that's cheaper than buying lux!

410BC: Vikings complete Sun Tzu.

390BC: Sioux and America finally make peace.

350BC: AI has various techs now, and we are one turn to Theology which nobody has. Good choice.

I'm soly concentrated on elephants and rax. I'm building a pioneer in Ua Pou. We may send it to claim some oversea iron sources.

 

[LKendter]

I'm soly concentrated on elephants and rax.

I agree 100%. With sharing this landmass with a single civ war is a must. It is just a question of who strikes first.

Our lack of buildings is really going to hurt, but what choice do we have?


Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Sanabas
Meldor
Microbe
Romeothemonk (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[romeothemonk]

I got it. or will have it when I get home today.
This is purely hypothetical at the moment, but if war breaks out on my turns, and a few cities are razed, is there a dotmap on where you would like our new cities planted?
If there are any MGL's do we want the Palace gardens, a spear army, a jumbo army or even the FP, if we have enough cities.
In Zav2, I really learned the power of a spear army to cover all the no defense offensive units we have.
If I pull an MGL, I guess I will stop and ask the team what to do at that point.

 

[LKendter]

If I pull an MGL, I guess I will stop and ask the team what to do at that point.

That sounds like a good plan.

This is purely hypothetical at the moment, but if war breaks out on my turns, and a few cities are razed, is there a dotmap on where you would like our new cities planted?

No, but I would be surprised if we have the forces to do it at this time. We can deal with that when it comes.

 

[romeothemonk]

I peeked at the game last night and have some questions and/or comments.
1) Our entire offensive force consists of 2 elephants, with 2 in production.
2) We have a border city defended by a ranger. Unfortunately this is not LotR, and rangers are not good. (0-1-2 2 hp's)
3) We are building 1 (4-1-3) 5 hp unit. Why this instead of a Jumbo? (4-1-2) 6 hp, can road. Both have the same upgrade path.
4) I can hit Izmit, with the great wall in 1 turn from our borders. I will wait until I have 4 elephants, and at least 1 spear, then attack.
5) Ottos are in full expansion mode and have light defenses.
6) I want to keep the Great Wall, will Raze other stuff.

 

[LKendter]

It doesn't sound like we are at all ready for war. 4 elephants IMO is a just not enough for offensive punch. One bad RnG round and we are dead. Not when we have a joke of a border city with a ranger for defense. While I can't force you not to start the war, it sounds we are nowhere close to being ready.

IMO we need to continue to build up. If nothing else I want out UU ship near the Ottomans hoping for a kill and GA. A GA would justify the war.

I want to keep the Great Wall, will Raze other stuff.

I agree 100% here. We are really pop light and could use the free labor help. I think we would have a hard time keeping any of their cities.

 

[romeothemonk]

IHT: Pretty much expressed my thoughts here.
Turn 1: Theology gets vassalage and naval spirit and 70 gold from the vikes. Vassalge, naval spirit and 75 gold snag us cotton and warrior code from the aztecs. Theology and 60 gold snags us milling from Korea. Crazy horse gives us 200 gold for theology. Start research to castle building. We are down stirrup and clocks, and could choose feudalism, fundamentalism, or castle.
Turn 2: Sci Method popped. Aztecs get the colossus. Build a 2nd outrigger, build a monument, start 2 forges.
Turn 3: Crap. Castle building popped.
Turn 4: Osman demands 36 gold. Say yes. That really was hard. It took 5 minutes to decide.
Turn 5: Trade castle building to aztecs for Spices and 4 gold from Aztecs. Start on Feudalism.
Turn 6: After seeing this,

I can only pull the trigger now. Declare war. RL an elephant and take out no hp's. Lose an elephant taking 1 hp from a TG. Kill a TG and get a slave. Cover elphants with a spear.
IBT: Scarriest IBT ever. Horse archer attacks Tonga witch only had a ranger defending because of moving spear to cover elephants. 2 hp 1 defense ranger kills a 3-1-3 horse archer with 3 hps. I didn't know that horse archers could go through forest in 1. Crazy horse gets 31 gold.
Turn 7: Get some units up, getting ready to withstand the storm of reg horse archers. I counted 6, 1 died and 1 redlined last turn on our spear.
Turn 8: This is looking bad. Kill 1 archer in the IBT, and lose 2 elephants on the IBT, as our spear had to redline first, exposing phants. To make matters worse, the otto's now have iron as I see a pike. Retreat a horse archer with a warrior. An outrigger dies to a galley. The RnG is really trying to punish me after that 1 gift.
IBT: Kill 2 horse archers, lose a RL spear and a reg warrior.
Turn 9: Get feudalism start crop rotation which is unknown currently.
IBT: Ragnar gets 24 gold. The RNG turns against us very badly. reg 3 hp horse archer kills fortified vet spear, reg 3 hp horse kills elephant, another kills a warrior, another kills the ranger and they capture tonga. Un believable.
Turn 10: Crop rotation pops, we lose our supplies of olive oil and coffee. This is just crappy, elephant redlines taking off 1 hp of a spear. WoW. Hiva rioted due to road route being cut.
The ottomans will not talk, and we will lose another town next turn.
I pull attacks like this in my solo games all the time and it never backs out like this. This was a total meltdown on RNG, plus a coupling of my offense first strategy with a somewhat risky attack.
Dang. I am really sorry that this really tanked. I did what I normally would, and this backfired badly.
The Tech picture was really bad.
I think a lack of dotmapping and a more coherent early strategy really makes us behind the 8-Ball. That and sharing a continent with a big power, the ottos started running away with techs and gold during my first 6 turns.
I honestly thought we could hit and run on the Otto's. We were over unit support, and doing nothing to increase our sciencs and falling further and further behind.
With knowing what would happen, I would still have attacked when I did. I think we got slightly hosed on our really low shield capitol. As a rule, I like 20 spt capitols with 2 production enhancers, something we lacked.
We can try and get peace ASAP, then go mad science and try and build up a science empire, and get up to artillary.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK96-150_BC.SAV

 

[microbe]

Looks like a worse situation than LK88. Maybe we should outsource ourselves to some other island.

 

[LKendter]

It doesn't sound like we are at all ready for war. 4 elephants IMO is a just not enough for offensive punch. One bad RnG round and we are dead. Not when we have a joke of a border city with a ranger for defense. While I can't force you not to start the war, it sounds we are nowhere close to being ready.

With knowing what would happen, I would still have attacked when I did. I think we got slightly hosed on our really low shield capitol. As a rule, I like 20 spt capitols with 2 production enhancers, something we lacked.
We can try and get peace ASAP, then go mad science and try and build up a science empire, and get up to artillery.

Well I really wish you had listen to me in this case. I absolutely did NOT want the war when I read your description of our forces. This looks really bad because of impatience for war. If we lose this one, I feel this is the critical mistake why.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Sanabas (on deck)
Meldor
Microbe
Romeothemonk

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[romeothemonk]

I was doing some thinking on my turnset and came up with some ideas/thoughts.
1) Misidentification was huge on my part. I misindentified Spears as TG's. After playing so many games of RaR, I had never seen an Otto Spear vs. TG, excpet when I had tanks or something similar. Russians have euro spear, Romans have Scutio, American civs have Amerindian spears, etc. The Otto TG and spears look identical, and I didn't bother to check.
2) I saw a pike in the mountains, and that iznik was building offense. These signaled short window of oppurtunity. When coupled with #1, I thought the oppurtunity to lash out at 3 TG's was to good to ignore.
3) We could have built miltary till kingdom come and with our shield poor start, could not have even matched 1/3 of what the deity AI with the slave trade could do. I have never gotton better than a 3:1 kill ratio in early wars with the A.I.
4) I really dislike the Polynesians in RaR the more I think about it. If they have their own Island, they are great. With no cheap culture and no military, they really get hosed without a killer UU. When stuck on an Island with a runaway AI, a 1/1/5 boat really doesn't help. (I am really liking Japan as my fave civ.) The outrigger is only killer when you really need to contact someone.
5) This could be beating a dead horse, but with my growing RaR experience I think dotmapping is extremely important. I think that it is more important than in reg C3C.
6) I think this team is better suited to a civ like the Celts, or Greece. Agri/religious for the builders, or awesome D for the warmongers.
Live and Learn.

 

[LKendter]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK96-10BC.zip

150 BC
The game I received is absurd for unhappiness. We only have 7 miserable people in the capitol.

I have no clue why we are building a settler. I don't understand why our cities are configured for high growth when we desperately need units.

I upgrade 2 TG to spears.
(IT) A warrior kills our 1 HP elephants.
A 1 HP horse archer captures Pukapuka that I inherited EMPTY.
We lost 3 workers by the city. That is even worse then city lose.


130 BC
The Ottomans still won't talk. I have a feeling they would due the success they are having.

We suffer another jump in WW. I give France Mounted Archery and Invention for Coffer and Olive Oil. Despite that I have to up luxury tax and hire a clown in the capitol.


110 BC
(IT) Tikei is pillaged and disconnected from the empire. We can't build elephants any more. They city also riots.
Hiva starves due to excess specialists.


90 BC
Want to guess who still won't talk?
(IT) The best unit I can now build is the Stone Crossbow.
Hiva continues to starve.
The Aztecs complete Voyage of Discovery.


70 BC
(IT) We are on the verge of death, and now the RnG gives us a defensive leader. What a frelling waste.


50 BC
What is worse is the leader is trapped in Tikei, and I can't afford to stop the elephant rider being built.
(IT) Fata Huka is now a Ottoman City.


30 BC
Our entire treasury and GPT output won't get a peace treaty.
(IT) Manihi falls to the Ottomans. A lone horse archer beats a spear in a city on a hill.


There is no sense in continuing to play this.
The entire military is a handful of spearmen.

 

[romeothemonk]

Well LK, Like I said I would have made that attack again had I the chance. I liked the chances of making the attack that I saw.
With a low shield, seafaring start, we should have emphasised commerce. As much as it pains me, war like we were forced into with only 1 civ on the island is a losing propsition everytime with less than 1/3 of the cities.
In my opinion the game was in trouble the moment that we decided to go for military over commerce. If we wanted military we should have built and planned defensively as they are much cheaper, than offensively.
In the short war I used absolutely everything that I could, which is why the city was empty. I left cities not so much on growth as commerce, as I was trying to keep us in a tech race. I didn't think that shaving a one turn off of a spear was worth 5 gpt.
I am thinking that RaR requires a whole lot more thought and early discussion than regular c3c, as there are many routes that get us to the same result.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

You should not fight an AI mainland before you have substantial forces of Knights/Cavaliers, and substantial production to replenish casualties.
It may seem easy to capture some colonnies even on Sid, or to fight a gassed AI like Carthage in LK88 (and of course, it IS something completely different once you have Artillery).
But neither was it easy to deal with Greece in LK88, nor is it a good idea to fight without good preperation.
Main reason is that the AI on the higher levels can build everything up to Knights (70sp) pretty easy even in mediocre cities (Deity=Knights for 42sp). They do upgrade to Cuirs, but those 120/72sp are something much harder to come by.
And, I never understand that excitement about Jumbos. They're decent, since they can lay roads in peacetime, and the movement bonus can be helpful - but, the Crusader clones are better for fighting. Move 3 is clearly superior to 1 HP more.
Also, in all RaR games I've lurked, I never see a healty unit mix. Too many Jumbos, or Knights/Cavas without Horse Archers, no Archers/MaA/Arquebusiers, noone except me builds Explorers or Colonial Marines, and the slow defenders aren't properly sent out early enough.

That is something you really have to learn . Of course, we all win unmodded with 80% Cavs, a few Muskets and sufficient Ari. But, mostly because of the different movement boni and the lower defences, RaR works different. A Knight cannot hold on its own - but, if backed up with a Horse Archer, chances get way better.