Logging a Civ2 game

[Ali Ardavan]

I started logging my games in one way or another since the first game of Civ2 I ever played.

Why do I spend time writing about a game?
I do it for two reasons:
1. Playability over time. It is next to impossible to finish a game in one sitting. The more time lapsed between the playing sessions the more difficult it is to go back to a saved game. I still have plenty of unfinished Civ1 games which will remain that way probably forever. Logging helps me not just remember what I was doing but also puts me in the right mood.
2. Comparison, both personal and public.
If you ever wonder how you are doing now compared to several years ago, last time you played this map, your fellow GOTM players, … the log can help you make that comparison much better than any saved game or score.

This may seem like a lot of work, or distraction from the game, if you have never done it before. But I have found it to be worthwhile, even fun.

The purpose of this thread is two fold. One is to point out the advantages to new players, the other is to help standardize the practice to some degree thus making public comparisons easier.

I always start by recording the initial conditions, that is the game settings, known map characteristics, the starting conditions of my civilization, and anything else peculiar about this game. For example, here is how my GOTM69 log starts:
2 Chinese Settlers. Alphabet, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws. 80x80 flat map. 5 civs. Restarts on. Prince level. Raging hordes (+25).

Next comes strategy thoughts. Sometimes this is very short as in the following from my GOTM67 log:
Resource seed is 41. OCC is certainly feasible but playing the purple civ calls for a landing game.
Sometimes this is long, for example the 12 item list I posted for GOTM68.

Strategy thoughts is followed by the main body of the log which is a recording of the events in chronological order punctuated by status reports at certain intervals. My logs end with a scoring section where I record the score.

I use 2 different formats for the main body of the log. A more detailed one for playing OCC and a less detailed one in general.

Here is a sample of an OCC log:

[B]Date 	Production started	Tech started  	Other notables[/B]

-4000						Both settlers move to swamp
-3950	Warrior	 				Beijing founded.
-3900				Monarchy
-3750	Warrior					Warrior reveals peat.

Here is a sample of a regular log:

[B]Date 	Notes[/B]

-4000	50g from hut. Little Bighorn founded. Going for size 1 settler. 
-3950	-> Ceremonial burial. 
-3750	Ceremonial Burial -> Code of Laws.

As mentioned earlier I do a status report every so often. I typically post these in the spoiler threads so many of you have seen this before. I used to use a slightly longer format but have shortened it since. The status report should be self explanatory except maybe for the notation used for trade routes: D means a domestic route and F means a foreign route.


Status at +1000
Population: 17.85M; Cities: 34; Trade routes: 37D16F; Government: Democracy
Cost per turn: 69; Total advances: 58; Production: 270MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Pyramids, Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Marco, Michelangelo, King Richard, Copernicus, Leo, Shakespeare, Magellan, Newton, Bach, Adam Smith.
Units: 24 Engineers (1 None), 29 Riflemen (1 None), 2 Cavalry, 5 Transport, 1 Diplomat, 17 Freight, 1 explorer.
Roman: 7 cities, 24 techs;
Zulu: 8 cities, 24 techs; Great Library
Viking: 12 cities, 18 techs; War with me; Lighthouse
Aztec: 3 cities, 25 techs;
Persian: 7 cities, 32 techs;
Carthaginian: 8 cities, 23 techs;

I use a slightly different format for status when playing OCC:

Status at +0500
City Size: 11; Government: Republic; Gold: 785; Techs: 36; Trade routes: 1
Structures: Marketplace, Library, Aqueduct, University
Wonders: Colossus, Marco, Copernicus, Shakespeare
Units: 2 Settler, 1 None Archer, 1 Frigate, 1 Caravan
Russian: 4 cities, 29 tech, 44g; Allied with me;
Zulu: 5 cities, 27 tech, 596g; ; Pyramids
Aztec: 2 cities, 22 tech, 317g; Allied with me;
American: 4 cities, 26 tech, 50g; Allied with me;
English: 1 cities, 20 tech, 303g; Allied with me;
Indian: 4 cities, 27 tech, 16g; Allied with me;

 

[ElephantU]

I'll post a bit more later when I get the time; one thing to note though is that when you post text with tab characters like your OCC log they disappear and the columns are lost. Even indents disappear in some forums. I usually do one line for the gameturn start, then add lines indented with dots for each significant event, like this:

1000BC: 29g,16b,12t@4b=48b
...met Neutral Greeks(2Sp), gifted Cer to Cordial, sh maps
...Hut(23,33): Horse(NON)= no one nearby
...found Susa@(43,21) 2-specials

 

[Peaster]

I keep logs mainly to improve my skills, or to compare my game with the games of other players (eg in CFC GOTMs) or with my own replays of the same game. I often omit data that's already contained in my saves, but do record major events (Wonders, battles, new techs, change of govt, new plans). For improvement, the best parts of a log are

* simple benchmark statistics (eg number of cities in 1000BC, etc)
* plans for the next phase of the game, written every 10 turns or so
* occasional quick reviews of earlier play (a quick list of successes, regrets)
* notes on unexpected game mechanics, ideas for future games, etc

For GOTM comparisons, it would be nice to follow a standard template, which is easy to use, but still includes all the vital info. I guess that is one main purpose of this thread. What I'd like to see in logs:

* Pre-game thoughts.
* Stats every 20-30 turns or so [maybe 2000BC, 1000BC, 500BC, 1AD, 500AD etc] on
....number of cities, population, size of the best city
....number of settlers, transport boats, caravans
....Mfg from F11 (total shields per turn)
....number of techs, and maybe list the most recent ones
....TLS percentages
....Rough data on trade, military strength, AI size/relations
....Brief list of plans for the next phase.
* Dates for major events, such as
....Major Wonders - at least the first 5 of them
....Hut results - at least the first 5
....New cities - at least the first 5 or 10.
....Change of Govt
....New AI contact, war/peace...
....Capture of an AI capitol, end of a civ, nukes, respawns...
....New invasion flotillas, first colonies, etc
....Launches
* Fairly detailed stats at the end of the game....except the player may not want to reveal everything until the GOTM is over. Also, if there is massive late game disbanding/selling, maybe the stats BEFORE the end are better.

I don't usually record details about tech gifts, NON-units, AI stats, improvements, names/dates of my 50th new city, etc. If most other loggers are interested in those things, I will probably include them.

 

[Magic_gorter]

I use the logs to improve my own game and use it as comparison when I'm replaying the game. If somebody play the same style as I did in a GOTM this log is also used to compare.

Stats every 20-30 turns or so [maybe 2000BC, 1000BC, 500BC, 1AD, 500AD etc] on

I agree with Peaster about the stats. If we try to get a standard log, this info must be included at the same moment (as mentioned above).

Pre game thoughts I normally don't write but is indeed a thing to include in the log. This way everbody can quickly see which type of game is played (EC/EL/OCC).

I think it is handy to include all huts and cities till at least 2000 BC in the log. The first turns are very important and this way it is easier to see how somebody is doing at the start. After 2000 BC this part is less important.

The other subjects Peaster mentioned should indeed be part of the log (wonders, government).

 

[Ali Ardavan]

For GOTM comparisons, it would be nice to follow a standard template, which is easy to use, but still includes all the vital info. I guess that is one main purpose of this thread.

Indeed it is.

I believe the easiest portion to standardize are the status reports. The snap shot of your game once every so often. In fact, I was tempted to start the thread just talking about that.

There are two things we need to standardize. When to take the snap shot (every so many turns, at prespecified dates, ...) and what to include in it.

I do my status reports at prespecified dates, simply because it is easier to remember. I really dislike the fact that turns and dates correspondence changes with difficulty level. In Civ1 the extra turns for the easier levels were provided at the end (the highest level ended at 2020, the next at 2040 and so on till 2100). This is one of the disimprovements they did in Civ2 over Civ1.

Anyways, prespecified dates will be easier to remember for everyone but they have to be adjusted for difficulty level and whenever we play scenarios. I do my logs at -1000, 1, 500, 1000, 1500, 1750, 1800, 1850, 1900, 1950.

If we decide to do the reports every so many turns, we can pick a fixed interval (for example every 25 turns) or a sliding scale which matches the game more closely as there is little happening in the begining and a lot more towards the end (for example, turns 50, 90, 120, and then every 20 turns)

Another point to consider is that early conquest gamers typically finish before 150 turns, where as early landing games typically last beyond 200 turns.

I am going to stop at this point to see what others think as I would like to handle the standardization issues one step at a time.

 

[Magic_gorter]

If we decide to do the reports every so many turns, we can pick a fixed interval (for example every 25 turns) or a sliding scale which matches the game more closely as there is little happening in the begining and a lot more towards the end (for example, turns 50, 90, 120, and then every 20 turns)

I agree with you Ali. In the beginning there is not a lot of things hapening, so the use of a sliding scale is the best way. But 50 turns looks to me a little long. At deity this would be around BC 1500. Better would be turn 40 (2000 BC) and then turns 70, 100, 120 and then every 20 turns. Turn 100 (101) is at Deity 1 AD. This moment is important because we must save the game for the GOTM game submission.

 

[ElephantU]

Easy ones to remember are 2000BC, 1000BC, 500BC, AD1, AD500, AD1000 (although the number of turns between them varies). Ususally between the start and 2000BC only a few cities get founded. Hut results are critical in that time as Advanced Tribes and nomads give great benefit while Barbs or tech can greatly hinder. Another addition to your list might be first trade routes and AI contact.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Upon further reflection it occured to me that while there is not much happening in the begining of the game others are more likely to be intrested in your status early on than later since the games have less departed due to different strategies at that point. That is, if I am playing space ship and you are playing conquest I am far more interested in your log and your status early on when both of us are purely expanding as opposed to later on when I am building infrastructure and you are building units.

So may be we should do them at 20 turns before 1AD and 25 turns afterwards. This way the statuses will be on -3000, -2000, -1000, -500, 1, and then every 25 turns (250, 500, 750, 1000, ... or 500, 1000, ... depending on the level) which are all easy to remember.

I suggest that we try this for GOTM70 and see how it goes.

Next up, what do you guys think about my sample status reports? Too much info? Too little info?

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

For the standard status reports, Population is a relatively meaningless statistic that depends more on your city sizes than anything 'important'. Number of citizens would be more meaningful metric, but this can be difficult to determine once you get beyond a certain size. I also don't even know what "Megatons of Production" measures, so I wouldn't normally track that one.

For the OCC log, since you only have at most 3 routes, I think the Arrow value of them is more valuable information than the raw number (E.g. Trade routes: +9, +10, +6 or some such)

There's a lot of information that's good to know in order to compare OCC's but they tend to vary based on too many variables like tax settings and worker allocation (most importantly beaker production)

For logs, I use Excel to keep it more organized. I record just about every message that comes up between turns, plus major decisions or events I do during turns. I tend to describe my thoughts about what I've done and why I'm doing things because the main reason I keep the log is to be able to keep track of why I had been doing things from turn to turn, especially when I stop and start. I generally log in much more detail than I would post here. Early on, I record rush-buys and amounts, all units/improvements, settler work, etc. whereas once things get going, those details tend to get left out. I tend to put a fair amount of commentary and "reaction" in my log as well.

There are two adjuncts I often have in my log spreadsheets. The first is a tech-tracker where I record every tech I have and every tech the AI's have (mostly for when I have MPE) so I can plan where and in what order I want to make trades, I can see where tech gifts are likely to occur, and I can focus on giving each AI what it is researching. It's just easier than trying to page through the F3 screens and trying to compare that with F6. It gets it all lined up for me (and conditional highlighting brings attention to techs representing trading opportunities each direction).

The other "adjunct" is a Van tracker. I use this in larger games. I note source, commodity, current location, intended destination(s) and sometimes notes about how I expect to transport the van to its intended location (via certain airports, boat routes, etc). I'll often have dozens of vans and even with this tool I still lose track of some and can spend hours planning out movements for a single turn, trying to consider commodity blocking, demand, potential payouts, etc. often trying to look ahead several turns as well. Without it, I'd be an even worse wreck every turn.

For large games which get to modern times, a couple times I have also created an airport tracker so I can plan out which units (usually vans, but sometimes military) will depart and land from each airport. I hate trying to send a van, only to realize I had already shipped a unit from the destination airport, etc.

 

[Peaster]

Tim - You sound incredibly well-organized! I agree that population is pretty meaningless. But production ("Mfg Goods" on the F11 screen) is one of my favorite stats for measuring the size/success of my civ. It is just the total number of shields your cities produce per turn. So, it is roughly proportional to your number of citizens, and you don't have to compute it.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Tim - You sound incredibly well-organized! I agree that population is pretty meaningless. But production ("Mfg Goods" on the F11 screen) is one of my favorite stats for measuring the size/success of my civ. It is just the total number of shields your cities produce per turn. So, it is roughly proportional to your number of citizens, and you don't have to compute it.

Actually the problem is that I'm incredibly disorganized. This is all stuff I have to do just to get from turn to turn, and even then a late-modern game takes me several hours each turn going "Now was this salt going to Kiev, or Kaupang...".

good to know about Mfg Goods. Isn't another one of the demographics equal to the combined shield, food and trade output of your cities or someething like that? I guess I should learn more about that stuff.

 

[FranSpring]

Hi! I am a sort of newbie in this community and this might be a dumb question but however... where exactly do you log your data? Is this a simple txt file or phyton or c++? And the second is, where do you retrieve your information from?
Could I also make log files just with the original game (without patch yet) or single scenarios?

Thanks for feedback.

 

[geofelt]

No way could I ever keep a good log. I even forget to take the required gotm saves at the proper time. The best answer would be some software that would output the data to a file automatically. There would be some debate about what should (could?) be collected, and when.

 

[Magic_gorter]

Hi! I am a sort of newbie in this community and this might be a dumb question but however... where exactly do you log your data? Is this a simple txt file or phyton or c++? And the second is, where do you retrieve your information from?
Could I also make log files just with the original game (without patch yet) or single scenarios?

Thanks for feedback.

Welcome to FCF FranSpring,

Dumb questions do not excist. It is better to ask than not at all. Making you're log can be done on paper or if it's easier for you're self with excel, word, etc. In this thread we are discussing to get a sort of standard log which we can use when playing GOTM (a game everebody can join). With the standard log other players can see how an other player played his game in comparison to his...and might learn something of that game.

The information you nead is in the right part of the screen (year), the popup messages (discovering science, popping hut, etc.). Some information can be found in the menu's (shieldproduction). Read the thread carefully and you know which information should be in the log.

Yes you can make of every game a log (even scenario's, etc.). With the use of a log you can find points to improve you're game or what you're plan for next turns is.

 

[ElephantU]

The easiest place to keep your log is NotePad - just squeeze the pad down to about a quarter of the screen (or squeeze CivII over and let it run down along side the playing window - works nice on these newer "widescreen" monitors) and jot things down as you go along. Keep it organized chronologically, write the date down and a couple notes about what went on that turn, then decide ahead of time what intervals you will take a "broader look" to record a snapshot of the state of your empire as well as some notes on what is happening and what your future goals are.

My log started out as a way to make up for the greatest deficiency of the playing screens, that there is no numerical record of how many beakers you have accumulated in the beaker box toward the next tech. I realized that if I looked at the F5 screen at the very beginning of my turn (before I changed anything regarding city production or did any deliveries) and kept a running total of those numbers I would not have to guess anymore about the length of the beaker box versus the "required" amount. So each turn I put in my log the date, the current treasury, and the accumulated beaker total. I also note changes in the system predicted number of turns to the next tech and the Power Rating, since these will alert me that the beaker requirements may have shifted. Obviously my games are very tech-focused; I am less careful about techs when I play conquest games (which are not that often).

The other issue I found about logs is formatting for posting online. I liked using tabs early on, but they disappear when you post on some forums so I switched to dots. Some forums accept HTML tags for things like Bold and Underline, but I usually put those in afterwards to highlight tech progress or Wonders built. A row of equals signs makes a good divider in just about any forums if you are trying to highlight a strategic snapshot (I always like to record everything I learn right after building Marco Polo's Embassy, since that is such a milestone). When I am getting close to wanting to switch governments I calculate and track Oedo turns, and often put a note ahead of the current turn of the one in which I intend to revolt.

 

[EdwardTking]

Tim - You sound incredibly well-organized! I agree that population is pretty meaningless. But production ("Mfg Goods" on the F11 screen) is one of my favorite stats for measuring the size/success of my civ. It is just the total number of shields your cities produce per turn. So, it is roughly proportional to your number of citizens, and you don't have to compute it.

I think that Mfg Goods is the most important metric on the F11 screen.

Population is dubious because it gives a spurious boost to civilisations with a few large rather than many cities, and can be changed by a representative gov at 80% lux with WLK. The financial metrics reflect the sliders and governments.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I agree with all those who dislike population; I wish the game would tell you the number of citizens which is more meaningful, but it does not. Counting citizens by hand is impractical beyond a few cities. I believe the combination of the number of your cities and your population is quite a good measure.

For the OCC log, since you only have at most 3 routes, I think the Arrow value of them is more valuable information than the raw number (E.g. Trade routes: +9, +10, +6 or some such)

Great suggestion.

... an airport tracker so I can plan out which units (usually vans, but sometimes military) will depart and land from each airport. I hate trying to send a van, only to realize I had already shipped a unit from the destination airport, etc.

That is really poor user interface design. The interface should disallow picking airports that have already been used.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Isn't another one of the demographics equal to the combined shield, food and trade output of your cities or someething like that? I guess I should learn more about that stuff.

I believe GNP is the one you are talking about. There is an article somewhere on the forum (or maybe Apolyton) that explains every single field in the demographics report in detail.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

That is really poor user interface design. The interface should disallow picking airports that have already been used.

Agreed, it's horrible design. But I'd still have my tracker even if that was the case. My objective is to identify the best use of each airport (mostly which van do I want to ship where), and so I would still want to plan out all the airports before sending the first unit.

I just wish you could arrive and depart the same airport in one turn.

 

[Peaster]

I agree with all those who dislike population; I wish the game would tell you the number of citizens which is more meaningful, but it does not. Counting citizens by hand is impractical beyond a few cities.

We discussed this [I discussed it mainly with myself actually] in the GOTM 50 spoiler (page 3?).

To answer my own question from a previous post, you can count your citizens (and therefore worked tiles) most easily from

Citizens = (50 * Citizen Score / Approval rating) - 1

A farily complete explanation of the demographic stats is at

http://home.tiscali.cz:8080/~cz04566.../statistic.htm

If that link is broken, I think most of the formulas are also in this thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30934