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Lonely Hearts Club, BTS Edition, Chapter VIII: Montezuma

Still i won my last isolation by an all out attack because i didn't believe (and still don't Ungy's claim that it was a dead win ,I was more techs ahead than he was at the time and i wasn't sure so i choose another path).

Well feel free to prove me wrong--I trust your play. Here's the save--in addition to around 3-4 techs or so lead I have mining inc. So there will be no shortage of hammers. My guess is if you play this out the AI will be missing at least 3 techs when you launch. I normally play for space and have seen this movie before.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=164056&d=1195051842
 
Win by space,1970 ( almost beated the Americans moon landing date :lol: )
Spoiler :
Started with a warrior and researched Mining ( starting techs were useless for worker first) Manage to get Henge/Oracle combo ( got CoL out of it, no way I would try a CS slingshot with Monty ;) ) and HG ( with five cities it was worthwile, in spite of having abandoned Slavery when I got CoL.... not much of UB use.... ). Used warriors for fogbusting ( no cooper/horses , no love for archery and in no mood for GW ) and beelined the middle eco techs ( you know your economy is in wrecks when you spend 23 turns to research Currency ;) )

I spotted the 1 ocean strait in the north and decided to make a ( crappy ) city to try to see what it was north. Discovered Boudica, Ramesses and Karl ( by that order) and started to work to get acess trade routes with them...unfortunately Boudica thinked exactly the same and it was necessary a little cultural work to get acess to trade routes on the other side ( Boudica had acess to mine as well... you can't have it all ). The diplo of the northern lands was a complete mess ( 3 AI founding 4 religions, having everyone of then a diferent one... you can imagine ) and me being confucian didn't helped either.... but I managed to get some juicy trades when boudica discovered Alpha. Founded Tao as well and felt confident enough to backtrack to research to Optics to Lib Astro. Sent the caravels in to the unknown and:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0001.jpg

Nothing like a pushy and demanding civ that has astro but no paper.... and Islamic without the holy city ( you don't see that every day .... but the big continent was religionless until the time QSH founded Islam ( Me, Boudica, Karl and Ramesses founded the other 6 ), and that would have diplo repercusions in the future ). I spotted that João would be the main problem of my game and didn't made any trades with him ( and with his chinese religious buddy), prefering roosevelt for the backfilling.

After winning the lib and the circumnavigation races ( took astro out of Lib and then OBed to the other continent ), I continued my path to space while boudica and karl were having their 2nd and third wars ( that led to a HRE vassalization.... I even considered imposing Pax Azteca to the northern lands, but I figured that Boudica had a zillion and a half of well promoted ( and outdated ) troops, so I would probably be Shaka'ed ( AKA overrunned.... a internet cookie to the one that discovers from what Civ IV leader I took inpiration for this one :lol: ) by her .... Later events proved me that I took the best aproach )..... In the the late XVIII century João made a demand that I refused, and immediately his hands got full.... I noticed that and , while having a DP with roosie ( that would divert most of the Portuguese land troops from me) I started to chunk rifles and infantry.... João vacilated for a while but decided to DoW me in the begginings of the XX century. That made the world a diplo mayhem: Roosie dowed João ( DP ) , João bribed QSH to dow Roosie and I bribed Boudica to cut trades to João and in the next turn to dow him ( and her HRE vassal too ).

The way that João led his attack to me is a living proof of how much AI was improved in BtS regardind naval assaults and of how much AI still needs to be improved regarding tactics..... João attacked me in a place I wasn't expecting ( a city north of that wheat in the shores of the river that starts near the capitol ) that only had ( IIRC ) 3 rifles, 1 musket and a warrior ) and his naval stack was decent ( 4 tranports, 2 destroyers ( combat II ) some frigates and a ship of the line ), but his land troops assortement was not well balanced, consisting mainly in arties with 2 marines and some 6-7 SAM infantry ). He attacked directly the city first with the marines ( 1 won ), then with the SAMs and then with the Arties.... for my luck the warrior was still standing when the arties started to attack, so I held the city ( a human player would have done far better.... ). Then he made a very stupid mistake: he splited the naval stack, leading the destroyers to the north to kill a caravel that I had nearby and maintained the rest nearby... I had Some battleships in capitol and managed to kill the destroyers, while some other battleships came from the south to intercept the transports and their feeble protection along with 1 battleship I had in the attacked city ( they would not get in time to prevent a second landing, but that wasn't needed either ). But I thinked I had enough troops to kill his stack in the ground, so I lured him with some workers, while reinforcing the city with some rifles I took from other cities that I mass upgraded to infantry ( made some "rip money from backward civs" deals ) as well as some cannons converted to arties ( courtesy of QSH ). João, as predicted landed his troops to capture the workers ( but not destroyed them... should be the first time I see a AI not destroying captured workers ) spiliting them and the rest was mopup service of both portuguese naval and land forces. The rest of the war was mainly naval battles between João destroyers and my battleships, with me having the upper hand on most combats ( quantity and strenght normally beats promos ). UN ( built and led by Ramesses ) stopped the war against Boudica and I felt it was wise to stop my war as well before WW started to climb to non-PS unsustainable levels ( IIRC I even took some money out of the peace ). Shortly after roosie vassalized to QSH and WWI ended ( somehow Ramesses managed to stay out of the mess )

With roosie out of the diplo game I decided to get another partner in crime.... Boudica. She was the perfect houng dog: lots of obsolete troops, big empire, bad relations with the probable offenders ( by some unknowed reason she hated QSH and the war with João made her hate him as well ). I made a DP with her and feeded her carefully with techs and ( later ,after a nifty event took her out of Merc to enviromentalism ) with Mining corps ( boosting her prod and ruining her finances :devil: ). Thank god it wasn't needed, but it was a good move...

After founding the Mining and AL corps ( after noticing the lack of Al in our lands.... later I managed to get it from QSH ) and renting cooper from Ramesses to build the internet ( good timing made it almost coincide with the research of Robotics, giving me the chance of burning 2 engineers in the space elevator ( IIRC I had 7 GE in this game ( one from Fusion ), even with very bad odds ( that made me not having the confu shrine :mad: )... 2 for the SoL , 2 for the space elevator , 2 settled in capitol and 1 used in a GA ). With that in hands, and with 2 GA I had a lock on the launch:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0003.jpg


Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpg

And 10 uneventful turns later:
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg


Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

Some extra intel: the map in 1969 and the power rating during the game ( clearly noticeable the WWI war ( Roosie breakdown ) and my SS build up ( the plateau in power late in the game )
Spoiler :
Map19690000.jpg


Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg


Some extra regards:

I played this game as if Monty had no traits, UU and UB ( I think that I didn't even built a Jaguar warrior ) and it worked supringly well ( I think that Darius game gave me much more headaches... ). I think the key was the Henge/Oracle combo ( providing 2 settled prophets in capitol ), the fact of having international intercontinental trade routes since early in the game and the conscious effort I made in the fogbusting and in the diplo to prevent the need of a early army. That allowed me to run a almost pure CE without big worries. Spiritual helped with the early civics switch and Agg gunpowder units are pretty good as well.

Save before victory provided below, as well as long and boring log
 

Attachments

Immortal, Spacerace 1931

Spoiler :
Not much to say. I chugged along and made some good trades along the way, in both resources and tech. Bypassing democracy and trading for it really helped me, as it put me ahead in tech while still being able to get democracy when all the other AI's had. I won the Fusion race in the end, beating Roosevelt who didn't have fiber optics. Roosevelt was my only competition (he had internet and close in tech), but he semi-went for stealth and such. I started a golden age with the engineer and the saved up scientist, filled up on past techs (satellites->composites->genetics->ecology) and finished my 2 slowest casing and the stasis chamber on the same turn. All the oil/uranium we had were put to good use in trade, including picking up aluminum from Qin. Also, I was able to pop a coal and 2 coppers from random mines :D. A very important factor in this game was that I never went to war/was declared war on, as I had good relations with everyone.

Pictures speak louder than words, so here is the end game and the final terrain:

View attachment 165055 View attachment 165056 View attachment 165057

Ended w/ Augustus Caeser, 25K.
 
@SpockFederation
Spoiler :
Good to know that your QSH was as dumb as mine... selling Al to SS competidor :shake: And of course maintaining peace during the game helps with SS races ;)

Interesting that in your game Roosie was your main SS competidor...His land was clearly inferior to the northern neighbours... I wonder how he pulled that one ( even getting the net requires a good tech pace ).

Another interesting thing is that looks that having 2 ind civs ( atleast in this game ) nullified both. IMHO ( in my game atleast ) Qin sabotaged Ramesses efforts to get both his cherised religious eco ( stealing minaret and sankore from him ) and his also cherised hits wonders culture late boost ( I took eiffel and Rock and roll , qin took Broadway ).
 
Well feel free to prove me wrong--I trust your play. Here's the save--in addition to around 3-4 techs or so lead I have mining inc. So there will be no shortage of hammers. My guess is if you play this out the AI will be missing at least 3 techs when you launch. I normally play for space and have seen this movie before.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=164056&d=1195051842
Well you're probably right Ungy see spoiler.
Spoiler :

I just read Spock's Space race , he won without attacking anyone this game being Montezuma, which is impressive so with Darius (and an even better island than this one) i think you would indeed have won it Ungy. I think the reason Roosevelt techs so fast is not only because he's financial but also because he focuses on research and economics. This attitude usually gets him into trouble so he ends up being a vassal, not this time.

As for my own game, i grabbed lib (and astro) 1100 AD and began the build up for Rifling, researching Machinery ,bulbing press, guilds, banking, economics (free GM) then gunpowder replaceables rifling. I don't know exactly which trades i made but it didn't amount too much. Rifling was ready 1520 AD , built up an army drafting rifles (mostly from Globe the most powerful wonder in the game toghether with the Net). By this time i knew that i would go for Ramesses, most important reason being that i wouldn't face any culture problems after taking him out. I started war in 1615 AD, finished 1755 AD. I'm slightly backward now so chances for a Domination win were not good this time(no use attacking infantry with rifles in a foreign continent. I went for space, really had to race to Internet (with a lot of cities set to research to get to comps in time) before Roosevelt could take it. After that it was easy i arrived at Alpha 1939 AD. This is later than Spocks' race whit twice as much cities. So it seems like the the cost of war (virtually no research between 1615 AD and 1755 AD and having a lot of important buildings (universities, observatories,oxford etc...) delayed might be more important than the extra land (which also brings some extra costs).
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/101761/Lonely_Montezuma_AD-1615.CivBeyondSwordSave
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/101761/Lonely_Montezuma_AD-1750.CivBeyondSwordSave
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/101761/Lonely_Montezuma_AD-1939.CivBeyondSwordSave
 
Well you're probably right Ungy see spoiler.
Spoiler :

I just read Spock's Space race , he won without attacking anyone this game being Montezuma, which is impressive so with Darius (and an even better island than this one) i think you would indeed have won it Ungy. I think the reason Roosevelt techs so fast is not only because he's financial but also because he focuses on research and economics. This attitude usually gets him into trouble so he ends up being a vassal, not this time.

As for my own game, i grabbed lib (and astro) 1100 AD and began the build up for Rifling, researching Machinery ,bulbing press, guilds, banking, economics (free GM) then gunpowder replaceables rifling. I don't know exactly which trades i made but it didn't amount too much. Rifling was ready 1520 AD , built up an army drafting rifles (mostly from Globe the most powerful wonder in the game toghether with the Net). By this time i knew that i would go for Ramesses, most important reason being that i wouldn't face any culture problems after taking him out. I started war in 1615 AD, finished 1755 AD. I'm slightly backward now so chances for a Domination win were not good this time(no use attacking infantry with rifles in a foreign continent. I went for space, really had to race to Internet (with a lot of cities set to research to get to comps in time) before Roosevelt could take it. After that it was easy i arrived at Alpha 1939 AD. This is later than Spocks' race whit twice as much cities. So it seems like the the cost of war (virtually no research between 1615 AD and 1755 AD and having a lot of important buildings (universities, observatories,oxford etc...) delayed might be more important than the extra land (which also brings some extra costs).
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/101761/Lonely_Montezuma_AD-1615.CivBeyondSwordSave
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/101761/Lonely_Montezuma_AD-1750.CivBeyondSwordSave
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/101761/Lonely_Montezuma_AD-1939.CivBeyondSwordSave

Spoiler :
I started out this game, although being Montezuma, to try to win a space without any war (providing that we had good land). I lost the Darius game due to an unsuccessful war costing me 20+ turns of research, so I set out to see if i could survive with no war. Turns out my result nearly mirrored my Darius game- I lost to Ghandi's culture in 1936 (or would have lost ~1942 to Hammruabi's spaceship) and I would launch about 1940 (arrive 1950). I wonder what 1950 minus 20 is.... (this game ended in 1931). The Darius game was with a financial AND organized leader with better land, yet simply by not going to war I had the same success with slighty worse land and a worse leader.


@rolo

Spoiler :
It was kinda weird how roosie was my opponent. Qin was keeping up (he got the space elevator) but for some reason the AI's seemed to just drop off in my game. IIRC though, roosie had acouple golden ages that boosted him to computers. Charlie was with us until assembly line-ish, where he basically dropped off. Ramesses caught up some but his wars slowed him down. Finally, Joao did well but Qin vassalized him.
 
I think space is a generally a viable plan in isolated games. Especially with a financial leader or if you have good land. I just didn't play this one too well--I went for an early religion and missed...etc.

In this game it seems like Spockfederation was well ahead of where I was at the time of lib--not at all sure that I could have caught up peacefully.
 
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