Lonely Hearts Club Bullpen

r_rolo1 · Nov 14, 2007

As some people requested a space to subscrive for news about the Lonely Hearts club games ( like the opening of a new one ) and a summulae of the already played games, I decided to do a copy of the ALC format and to create a bullpen as well ( sorry for the shameless copy, S man

Spoiler :

@ Glassoid

As you can see we are still testing ideas, but I would say:

1- Focus on the economical techs ( CS , currency and maybe Calendar ), develop your land and run away from the temptation of beelining Optics for contacting other civs ( your economy will be in far worse shape in the contact moment than if you developed better )
2-Make a sustainable REX ( 50/60 % ) and pick the best spots ( you'll have time until the others grab Astro ). Look eagerly for good cottagable land and/or nice food sites for specialists.
3- You need big cities to balance your isolation. HR is a good friend. You'll also need all the you can get. Do not overwhip ( maybe only whipping settlers and workers and a ocasional building )
4- Unless you want to go cultural ( and maybe even there.... ), found only 1/2 religions top . You'll want a more religious divided world ( more wars, less tech trading, possibility of a backdoor for a later invasion.... ), it protects you better
5- Beeline Liberalism. Even if you loose the race, Free religion helps with the research and puts you under the radar scope of the AI ( you'll not have the religion minuses , so less probabilities on a war)
6- Prepare a defensive fleet ASAP ( self explainable )
7-Forget your pride and cave in to the AI demands ( you'll be probably weak until the Industrial age, so don't mess too much around ). Even worse, give the AI all of your spare resourses or trade them. Get friends, but always try to stir a war overseas.
8- If you survived this far, now is a good time to think how to win. IF you have a nice chunk of good land, Diplo may be a solution ( big population ). Space may be a nice idea too (in that case beeline computers and spam labs; Internet is a good help too). Or you can take a tour de force and try a late Dom victory ( tech until the desired unit, shut down research and $rush (US is your friend ). Numbers over quality )
9- Enviromentalism is your friend in isolation ( you'll need big cities and in isolation is your limitating factor ( remember that HR allows you unlimited and that there are much more ways to than to in Civ IV )
10- Nukes are your friend too ( maybe you'll need to stop a launch in extremis )

There are no wonders that are needed to win in isolation ( some will help, but they would help too in non isolated starts : Henge, GW ,Pyramids, GL,.... ). In fact, probably you won't have even a chance of trying to build some ( like most of the medieval ones ) :Normally it is better to focus in more/better cities than in wonder races.

This is just a catch up of the LHCs so far. I hope it helps ( and everyone is free to add something I could had forgotten of course )

Feel free to discuss it and bash me :lol:

Kudos to all

ungy · Nov 14, 2007

I would add:
1. Watch to see who gets astro. That tells you who becomes a potential threat.

2. I'm not a big fan of building pre-industial navies in peacetime. If the AI attacks you, they will send an invasion force you cannot hope to intercept and defeat. The real purpose of your navy is to protect your seafood. Better to use the precious hammers on land defenders.

3. Often the rifling beeline after lib-nat can be a big help. Draft up an army of riflemen just about the time the AI are getting astro.

r_rolo1 · Nov 14, 2007

Thanks for the reply, ungy ... I agree with the rifling beeline strat being a option ( The spoiled text is from Warlords time, where the AI teched more furiously in pre-industrial times than in BtS, so taking Lib from AI hands was more of a priority )....
Watching who has astro is a thing to get in mind as well... nice catch

@ all

I would like some input as well about cultural and UN victories ( I'm not very skilled in UN diplo ( the AP one is more MM-able ) and I never had a cultural victory in Civ IV ( shame on me .... )), if possible.

And I want to launch a discussion theme: Here in the LHC there always existed a discussion about if it was more useful to beeline Optics and try to find everyone else ( the southern route type research ) or if you should focus in economical development using the 3 ( or 4 ) economical C's : CS, CoL Currency ( and Calendar... this one is more map dependant ) and let the AI do the search job. What is your opinion?

VoiceOfUnreason · Nov 14, 2007

I'd try to make sure that some of the obvious bits are covered.

ie

You are isolated, and therefore don't need to worry about diplomatic bonuses prior to contact, so grab a religion to work with.

You are isolated, and therefore don't need to worry as much about military (pre contact). So economic settlements come before production settlements, etc.

Dirk1302 · Nov 14, 2007

r_rolo1 said:
Thanks for the reply, ungy ... I agree with the rifling beeline strat being a option ( The spoiled text is from Warlords time, where the AI teched more furiously in pre-industrial times than in BtS, so taking Lib from AI hands was more of a priority )....
Watching who has astro is a thing to get in mind as well... nice catch

@ all

I would like some input as well about cultural and UN victories ( I'm not very skilled in UN diplo ( the AP one is more MM-able ) and I never had a cultural victory in Civ IV ( shame on me .... )), if possible.

And I want to launch a discussion theme: Here in the LHC there always existed a discussion about if it was more useful to beeline Optics and try to find everyone else ( the southern route type research ) or if you should focus in economical development using the 3 ( or 4 ) economical C's : CS, CoL Currency ( and Calendar... this one is more map dependant ) and let the AI do the search job. What is your opinion?

I have no idea about UN diplo wins or cultural wins. I have strong feelings about optics/astronomy vs liberalism though.

First of all i think you have to maximize your economy so Col,CS,Currency (not as important as CS because we're talking domestic trade here) and Calender (if the resources are there) should always be researched first. Then

- 1 i think it's dependend on the level you're playing on also if it's Warlords or BTS, AI BTS research is about 1.5 level slower than Warlords research.

- 2 Winning the lib race in itself is no big deal, the reason non isolated winning the lib race (taking Nationalism) is important is because:

-a) In warlords you go military tradition next and conquer your continent with cavs

-b) In Bts you next research to Rifling building globe, switch to nationhood and do as in warlords drafting and using rifles this time.

-c) so the Ai don't get it, this takes a back seat IMO the real race for who's the fastest techer for space begins later roughly starting with techs like physics and electricity.Techs like Nationalism are always cheap later on so if you don't plan on doing something with Nationalism it's pretty useless to have it early.

Only c) applies when isolated so winning the lib race is only a big deal if you're able to get Astronomy, the key tech for isolated starts.

So if you're playing on a level on which you don't think you can win the lib race and get Astro, i'd suggest you research to CS, then research Currency and Calender if appropiate and beeline Optics from there, not because it's so important to meet the others there and then, but because you'll want to be ready with Astro and not with Education when you meet them. BTW in all the lonely starts i've never been the first to find the others....

Hackapell · Nov 14, 2007

Excellent! subscribed and will join when I have BtS :sad:

CellKu · Nov 14, 2007

r_rolo1 said:
I want to launch a discussion theme: Here in the LHC there always existed a discussion about if it was more useful to beeline Optics and try to find everyone else ( the southern route type research ) or if you should focus in economical development using the 3 ( or 4 ) economical C's : CS, CoL Currency ( and Calendar... this one is more map dependant ) and let the AI do the search job. What is your opinion?

Hm, I think there are arguments for both. I do prefer to develop my econ as much as possible (so let them find you). However, if you find them, the exchange of techs can start earlier which might help you with your tech plans. Moreover, getting the +1 movement for circumnavigating the world is something I like quite a bit, especially when navigation is important (as in isolated starts) - and that is more easily to get if you are going to find them.

pawelo · Nov 15, 2007

I agree with all that has been said before. Some of the following will seem as

Techs that are your best friends when isolated are
A/ economy techs :
- Pottery for cottages
- Sailing for coastal trade
- CoL, Currency, CS & Calendar - sometimes the order may vary, depending on map situation
- Optics for harbors & caravel

B/ research techs :
- Writing, Writing and once again Writing
- Priesthood for Oracle
- Litterature for Great Library
- Education for Universities spam & Oxford in best research city

C/ one religion tech - CoL is great when you get it early - or more religions if you wish to get the Cultural Victory

D/ wonder techs :
- Masonry for Pyramids and Representation
- Masonry & Sailing for Great Lighthouse
- Metal Casting for the Colossus

Often, as the religion is what you want for happiness in an isolated situation, you will aim for the Golden Four :
Apostolic Palace (Theology, extra hammers + triggers election), University of Sankoré (Paper, extra research), Sistine Chapel (Music, extra culture) & Spiral Minaret (Divine Right, extra money).

On military side, I usually have archers & axes (1-2 per city) before Rifling, then make sure you have at least 3-4 rifles/city when AI has Astronomy. I tend to post a naval scouts to fog bust the ocean - easy to draft a defensive army when you see a stack of Galleons coming your way

I'm happy to have this thread open - will never miss a start again when I have time available

Thanks r_rolo1 for hosting this!

Ozbenno · Nov 15, 2007

Is this where I start the Tokogawa for LHC petition?

I think the main thrust of isolated starts is that you have to play the hand you're dealt with. You have to get the most out of your traits. You have to get the most out of the resources on your island.

r_rolo1 · Nov 16, 2007

InvisibleStalke suggested this in LHC BtS VII:

A couple of other suggestions:

- Maybe some variation in the maps - different sea levels or terrain types would be good.
- Maybe tie maps more into the leader - eg an Arid map for Saladin or jungle for Suri or Monte.
- I'm OK with more of a constructed scenario - eg the person supplying the map decides what leaders would map it a fun combination. I'm thinking of playing the next map on a lower level but adding some roleplay constraints of my own.
- Maybe a spoiler could add some hints about the map and likely opposition - one of the problems I have is deciding which level to play at. If its a tough map then I'd probably prefer to pull the Monarch map. If its a really strong island I might prefer Immortal. Maybe just a rough indication of "this map is probably a difficulty level higher than normal".

What do you think of this? I like some of his suggestions ( some not so much: low sea levels make getting isolated starts a PITA ,believe me )

BTW InvisibleStalke, your thanks are mostly welcomed... You already organized 2 LHC, so you know how hard it is....

r_rolo1 · Nov 16, 2007

Posted next two LHC leaders. Strat discussion welcomed.

Ozbenno · Nov 16, 2007

WOOT! I'll definately play Tokogawa (although will probably forget).

As for Monty, I reckon he's not too bad for isolation. Spiritual allows for great flexibility. The Sacrificial Altar is good too, whip to your heart's content and to half your citizen's discontent. Makes CoL an important tech.

r_rolo1 · Nov 16, 2007

Don't worry, Oz... I'll pm you if I have to

About Monty: IMHO Slavery is a not so good option in isolation.... You need the pop for tile working more than for :whipped:

rush... and after HR it is a serious :nono:

. But Monty's spiritual trait may be useful.....

Ozbenno · Nov 16, 2007

r_rolo1 said:
About Monty: IMHO Slavery is a not so good option in isolation.... You need the pop for tile working more than for rush... and after HR it is a serious .

I still think whipping can give you an advantage, getting your infrastructure up in hammer poor but commerce rich cities pays off long term. Get a granary/library/lighthouse going in a crappy fishing village etc. What if your isolated start is food rich/hammer poor?

r_rolo1 · Nov 16, 2007

^^Agreed on that scenario, but in most of the cases I maintain my position: IMHO Slavery is subpar in isolation, except for more basic infra ( granaries pop to mind )

pawelo · Nov 17, 2007

Slavery will be good only for Granaries and Libs IMHO.
Maybe a temple and the altar too...
OK, ok, Slavery will be good for Monty :lol:

illram · Nov 17, 2007

r_rolo1 said:
Don't worry, Oz... I'll pm you if I have to

About Monty: IMHO Slavery is a not so good option in isolation.... You need the pop for tile working more than for rush... and after HR it is a serious . But Monty's spiritual trait may be useful.....

Why do you think slavery is bad w/ HR?

r_rolo1 · Nov 17, 2007

^^I know what you are refering ( whip " happy troops" ) but IMHO HR is for having big cities... and as you know the :hammers:

/

ratio of

decreases whit the increasing of the pop in the city....
:whipped:

as

source has is maximum in the 3-4 city pop zone ( and some ,like Dave , would argue than even there it is inneficient compared with the use of the terrain ) and after than it is simply a :nono:

illram · Nov 17, 2007

Hmm I guess strictly correlating hammer to food then I would agree with inefficiency at higher pop levels, but situationally it comes in handy, such as when you need 6 quick universities for Oxford, or libraries, or temples, or what have you. Or troops, if you don't want to draft.

Basically any situation where quick production is needed, or you lack shields, slavery is a must pre-US.

illram · Nov 17, 2007

pawelo said:
Often, as the religion is what you want for happiness in an isolated situation, you will aim for the Golden Four :
Apostolic Palace (Theology, extra hammers + triggers election), University of Sankoré (Paper, extra research), Sistine Chapel (Music, extra culture) & Spiral Minaret (Divine Right, extra money).

U of S seems popular but I never really see it benefiting me very often. It comes at a time when my religious buildings are not yet spammed everywhere, and I rarely spam religious buildings anyway unless I'm going cultural.

Best case scenario is 6 baseline beakers w/ a cathedral. Add multipliers of library and university and thats 9 beakers. In a typical iso start you wont have more than 3 cathedrals for your state religion, so thats 27 beakers from the big culture cities. Then, lets say you have 7 more cities all with 6 beakers from monast, temples, and libs and unis. (I'm assuming your average LHC iso start, where you get around 10-12 cities, usually.) Thats about 57 beakers by building temples, monasteries, libraries, and universities in every city PLUS the wonder itself PLUS three cathedrals. Thats a lot of shields for 57 extra beakers. (And.. really, how often does one have all of that pre liberalism? I certainly don't.)

Hence, I never really bother with the U of S but will sometimes get it anyway just because I often get paper way before the AI does. FR often gives me a higher boost for less cost. I see lots of people using it though so I feel like I am missing something obvious...

Lonely Hearts Club Bullpen

King of myself

Deity

King of myself

Deity

Deity

Rhetorician

Emperor

Emperor

Fly Fly Away

King of myself

King of myself

Fly Fly Away

King of myself

Fly Fly Away

King of myself

Emperor

Deity

King of myself

Deity

Deity

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