Long Winded Changes (LWC) Mod

I know you have done extencive work on the naval units attack and defence stats. However their movement is more of less the same.
Several times i has seen ppl complain about how naval units move FAR too slow esp in the industrial-modern age. Since then you can move a land unit all around your empire in one turn using rails but a fast high tech ship can only move a few squares. In real life modern ships can circle the globe in a short time. however it may take a many YEARS or so to land units on another continent.

So the gist of my question: Do you have any plans to try dramatic increases of naval movement rates? Say double of triple what it is now for most ships.

*remains rigidly on topic* :eek: ...:D
 
Originally posted by Goat_Guy
Kool...i have the first post in this great topic...but to remain on topic, i will say that plutark has done an excelent job, but i still dont like that fact that you must play it as a scenario...:mad: i dont like it one bit...and i LOVED it when it replaced civ3mod.bic!!:D

Ummm you could just rename the LWC bic to civ3mod.bic and replace the original. So then all your games would start as LWC witout having to load a 'scenario'.
I cant think of a reason why that wouldnt work. :king:

just dont try to enter the GotM with that setup :cool:
 
I thought I would give you some feedback on your mod. I have tried it under win 2k professional and now XP Home edition.
I will mention the XP errors only. The one error that kept coming up was when i quit the game, it always caused and error that I sent to MS.
The Tech tree is all messed up not a good flow. You need to edit the script file when ever you change or add a tech too.
The corruption problem needs too be addressed too. Overall I personally like your mod but the minor bugs and errors are annoying. Some are the games designers and programmers fault not yours. All of my games crashed during the modern era for some reason?
Maybe too many things are changed causing the editor too take a dump, I know I have caused that too happen many times. Makes no sense to have all these options for making mods if some of them you select will cause a crash? :crazyeyes
Win 2k had different errors then XP, seems like XP has less problems above all other OS. Keep up the good work. Be nice if you we could change some rules like auto-upgrade with leonardo workshop, walls for wall wonder, etc. looking for the new version be happy too beta test for you any time. :goodjob:

Desert Fox :p
 
This is a very good mod. Much better than the game mod which I won't even bother with now.

More techs and more units. It's everything Civ III should have been. More history, too.


A few minor suggestions:

Ironclads have much too high a defense value. It is all but impossible to take one out with another ironclad.

All naval units have too high a bombardment strength. Wooden ships probably shouldn't have any at all considering the range of their cannonball-firing cannon.

Submarines have a slightly too high attack value, and carriers slightly too low a defense value (they do have an intrinsic escort) in reality.

Check the upgrades for all units. Some units seem to upgrade to civ-specific units, which should be impssible for most civs. Ironclads appeared to upgrade to destroyers instead of steel warships. I can't understand that except to assume it's a mistake.

Resources? Horses never run out, and other strategic resources (especially coal) should be easier to find and less likely to vanish.

All these can be fixed in the Editor.

Oh yes, funny thing happened to me with coal. I am in the ironclad age (Industrial). After my coal ran out, I had to fight two wars to find other coal tiles. Soon after getting them, they ran out, too! (A problem corrected in the Editor). But, and here's the weird part, I could keep building steel warships and railroads. I checked the Advisor and a coal appeared near a city, but when I went to that city on the map I couldn't find it. That tile never got depleted for two hundred years and counting.

It seemed that if you reach a certain Age you will not be denied a coal resource. Which is good, but peculiar.

Anyway, good mod. The hell with the game mod.
 
Ok, I can probably answer some of these.

Originally posted by Supercilious
Check the upgrades for all units. Some units seem to upgrade to civ-specific units, which should be impssible for most civs. Ironclads appeared to upgrade to destroyers instead of steel warships. I can't understand that except to assume it's a mistake.
This was introduced by Plutarck so you could, for example, upgrade a Spearman to a Musketeer if you are French (which you couldn't do in the regular Civ3 :confused: ).

Your obsolete unit will always upgrade to the most advanced unit in the upgrade chain that you are able to build. If you aren't the civ that can build the specific unit in question, the game will simply skip the specific unit in the upgrade chain.

A Ship of the Line upgrades to the Steel Warship, which then upgrades to the Destroyer. An Ironclad upgrades to the Destroyer immediately.

Oh yes, funny thing happened to me with coal. I am in the ironclad age (Industrial). After my coal ran out, I had to fight two wars to find other coal tiles. Soon after getting them, they ran out, too! (A problem corrected in the Editor). But, and here's the weird part, I could keep building steel warships and railroads. I checked the Advisor and a coal appeared near a city, but when I went to that city on the map I couldn't find it. That tile never got depleted for two hundred years and counting.
Press Ctrl-Shift-M to check that the coal resource hasn't appeared directly on the city in question. You cannot see a resource if there is a city built on it :)
 
Sorry for the delay in getting to all my emails and replys to posts, but I'll get to 'em. Really ;)


(By the way, KALIROB2k2, I managed to fail to reply to your message from over a MONTH ago. Doh! Sorry about that, I'll get to it, so I haven't forgotten about ya :) )


A few things and a pre-patch download, cause I couldn't take it anymore, but you'll see about that.


First of all, known bugs. I know of the following bugs and either can't fix 'em at this time or it would take too much time to fix the comparitively minor bug.

1) Wrong civilopedia icons. Yup, I know about it, and mention it in an earlier post somewhere. Don't that suck?

A solution to it MAY come with the next patch, but it's just a guess, so I may never have to actually fix it the hard way, but if not it'l be fixed someday.

2) Rioting Crash Bug. This is the only crash bug I've managed to replicate, and have had it happen to me recently.

If you have a significant amount of citys that riot, while going through all the popups the game will crash. This usually happens when switching governments or with republic/democracy when a ton of demonstrations come from a war.

Luckily, there is a fix. For democracy/republic you may just have to switch governments and use this next fix though.

What you do is go into each city that has too many unhappy people (thus causing rioting) and just make some people entertainers. It's one of the annoyances of the governers that they manage happyness 1 turn too late...another reason they suck.

So just turn off the governor for you to add some entertainers. Then, as soon as the problem is near passing (or the same turn if your Religious, since anarchy only lasts a turn if your Religious...I don't pretend to understand that either, but I can't control it) you can just switch the governor back on for managing citizens.

In the next version Anarchy will have a 4 military police limit, so that may help things out at least early on, but it might not cure all ills. So good to keep this in mind, as it's the work-around I use to continue playing.




But now the point of this post. Here's what I've changed that will go into the next version so far (hadn't made any changes until today), with strong emphasis on the last big update on pollution:


02/13/02:

-Ironclad: Now has 18 attack instead of 17, and upgrades to Steel Warship instead of Destroyer. The latter was a relic of an earlier iteration of changes I made where Steel Warship wasn't totally better than an Ironclad, but as it's now superior in pretty much every way this makes much more sense.

-Naval units from Ship of the Line/Galleon on: The Ship of the Line and Galleon now has +1 movement, and all more advanced naval units also get +1 movement. The later units (from Steel Warship or Destroyer as a start) may need a movement boost, but I'm not decided upon the idea and currently see no need for it. Railroads may have unlimited movement, and the time-turn paradigm may be totally invalid, but illogical things are never reasonably sufficient grounds for establishing the logic of a change. Now if bureaucrats and theologians could just figure out the wisdom underlying "If your friend jumps off a bridge, would you do it too?", we'd all be So much better off.

The reason for picking Ship of the Line as the start is due to the relative historical mark of when naval technology really began to improve, including many navigational factors which are completely abstracted out of Civ3 (such as knowledge of currents and prevailing winds on the whole, as well as things such as a water-tight bulkhead, the improved use of rivets, improved sail usage, etc). That and Ironclad was just too slow for my tastes, and I didn't want it the same speed as Ship of the Line, AND it marks the inception of the Railroad (with their rediculous unlimited movement) - and I figure that should count for something on the high seas.

Besides, it works from a gameplay perspective.

-Pollution-producing Buildings: That's it, I've HAD IT! Maybe I've been reading too much of numberwatch.co.uk, junkscience.com, or co2science.org, or maybe I've just become crotchety and over-sensitive over the murder of Reason, Logic, and all that is right with Science, but I can't stand it anymore. No more will I allow this rediculous crap to pass on "game balance" grounds. No no, good sirs, I will not go quietly into the good night and sit idly by while this affront to good sense is seeped into our poor, poor, unsuspecting, innocent youth.

Legalized mass-murder I can let slip by on account of my testosterone and my skepticism as it regards the actual effect on reality. Rewritting of history I let slip by due to a mix of sloth and assuming, hopefully correctly, that none are too aggregious or are already so prevelant that it just Doesn't Matter. Hell, I'll even put Hitler and Stalin (murders the both) as Leaders on the grounds of historical accuracy and that it's an affront to reality not to include them.

But Global Warming? Are you out of your f*****g mind? (Censored for respect of opinions of so-called profanity, because it's not Subjective and doesn't hurt me to avoid pointless offense.)

I've hadz allz I can standz, and I can't standz no more. Enough!

Henceforth there shall be no Global Warming, so far as I can help it!

But with the great self-restraint of Gameplay Over Accuracy, I have seen fit to decrease pollution (largely by popular demand) rather than illiminate it completely (in reality pollution obviously exists, but doesn't do what the game has it do), so that no building produces more than 1 (25%?) pollution, and all pollution reducers decrease it 1 more than they did before (if that actually has any freakin' effect whatsoever).

Thus I now have modified the script.txt file, included in the next version of the LWC Mod, to change the 2 of the 3 main mentions of Global Warming to "Excessive pollution". The third instance...well, I made a bit of a funny and a nice hard jab on the topic. You can either search the file yourself or pollute so much that the water level rises (if that's possible at all). Maybe it's just me, but I think it's down-right hilarious.

Yeah, it's probably just me. But by-god, it's true!

Oh yeah, and I changed the civilopedia entry on pollution to reflect the changes, which are almost entirely cosmetic.

I'll have to change the individual building entrys later.

-Offshore Platform: Produces 2 unhappyness instead of 0. I'd make Airport produce at least 1 happyness, but I figured it was at least create 1 happyness, so they'd just cancel each other out.

-City Dump: Now produces 1 unhappyness instead of 1. Less trahs strewn in the city has to make SOMEONE happy.

-ISSUE: Do City Dump or Sewer System ACTUALLY alter pollution levels whatsoever? If not I'll just delete them, but I'm begining to wonder if they have any effect at all...

-Anarchy: Now has a 4 military police limit. Helps alleviate the crash bug with mass rioting, and just makes sense to me. After all, there is no form of law or constitution, so why wouldn't the military be capable of keeping people from voicing discontent? Call it Marshal Law.



That should say it all.

In short, all Pollution is now reduced, and I hath ExcerCISED the DEEEMons! ...of Global Warming.

It's handled to reflect my occassionally couth and level-headed nature, as well as giving a good thorough jab to such crap without being fanatical. Then again, I've never heard of a fanatic that truly appreciated the level of their own fanatacism, so I leave this judgement to the reader.

If you have a problem with it I suggest a good thorough critical-evaluation of numberwatch.co.uk, junkscience.com, and (most scientifically without being at all overly-complicated) co2science.org. While you're at it, buy "Sorry, Wrong Number!" by John Brignell, linked on the aforementioned Number Watch (written by the sites author).


If you still cannot cleary see the aggresious abuse of that grand, vestal, and mighty entity that is Reason, and truly of Real Science as a whole, then Get Thee To A Nunnery!; for thou surely are in need of a good habit.

(acyuck, ahyuck)


I'll probably make a simple mod of just this for those who wish to have it, but for now it'll just be a feature of the LWC Mod.

Prepatch I'm releasing this, which is purely non-gameplay altering, which should simply by unzipped into you're game's /Text directory. Script.txt is the main file which gives the changing of Global Warming to something that actually makes sense, but the change to the civilopedia does that too.

Pediaicons.txt was included because it fixes an oversight that caused the Minuteman's civilopedia entry to not be correctly used.


All will be available in the next version, of course, so this is just a quick aesthetic fix because I just couldn't stand it anymore.


One small step for reality.
 

Attachments

Originally posted by Lovro
Ok, I can probably answer some of these.

This was introduced by Plutarck so you could, for example, upgrade a Spearman to a Musketeer if you are French (which you couldn't do in the regular Civ3 :confused: ).

Your obsolete unit will always upgrade to the most advanced unit in the upgrade chain that you are able to build. If you aren't the civ that can build the specific unit in question, the game will simply skip the specific unit in the upgrade chain.

A Ship of the Line upgrades to the Steel Warship, which then upgrades to the Destroyer. An Ironclad upgrades to the Destroyer immediately.

Press Ctrl-Shift-M to check that the coal resource hasn't appeared directly on the city in question. You cannot see a resource if there is a city built on it :)


So, if I am not the French the Spearman would upgrade to a musketman?? But if I am the French it would upgrade to a musketeer?? In otherwords, if the upgrade of a unit is to a civ-specific unit but I am not that civ a default unit of similar (but weaker) strengths becomes the unit you upgrade to even though you can't find it in the Editor's upgrade box?? :confused:



I won't complain about a SOL upgrading directly to a steel warship, but if I have an ironclad and the other civ is hitting me with steel warships I don't think I'd be able to immediately upgrade to a destroyer even though I might want to upgrade to a steel warship in time of war. It puts a fleet of ironclads at a big disadvantage for awhile. Remember, you need mass production and oil to build a destroyer but not a steel warship. I'd rather upgrade an ironclad to a steel warship because I might need to do so quickly. I think Plutarck is making this change?


I still would be loathe to give ships those kind of high bombardment rates. They make improvements and even fortresses disappear too easily. Wooden ships had only cannon that could never accomplish such destruction. Ironclads also had too high a defensive value.


Coal. I will try that. Sounds strange they found coal inside the city. Under the colosseum, perhaps?! It just seemed the game was, at some point in time, not allowing a civ to be without coal - the absence of which would likely have caused me to resign the game being unable to build metal warships or railroads.
 
I've read Firaxis has deigned to come out with a new Patch: 1.17,

The LWC mod (#5) is in my Scenarios folder. The Fascist mod is in the Civ III folder. the 1.16 Patch was installed.

I am rather pleased with the LWC mod, esp. as I have tweaked it a bit.

If I install this new 1.17 Patch will it effect game play and values with the LWC mod?
 
I agree with your question about the upcoming patch. I wish I asked it my self. I do believe that the up coming patch will be incompatible with the LWC SENERIO!
 
There seems to be some misconception about "ironclads".

We should not even refer to the first of them (in History) - the French vessels of the Crimean War. Nor should we refer to the shallow draft coastal vessels typified by the Monitor at Hampton Roads in 1862.

The HMS Warrior was the first true, ocean-going metal warship, and you bet it travelled as fast or faster than any Ship of the Line even though primarily sail powered. It did have a steam engine and in fact was likely faster than SOL's dependent on winds and larger crews.

So the Warrior was a typical "ironclad" - not the Monitor.

"Steel warships" would be pre-Dreadnought (1904) warships, those of the 1890's. Battleships started coming in before WW I, and destroyers a little before that to counter the torpedo boat threat against the early battleships.

CONCLUSIONS:
Ironclads should be a bit faster than Ships of the Line.

We can also improve naval play by adding torpedo boat flottilla units - very cheap and capable of sinking steel warships but only in coastal or sea tiles. They could be countered with destoyers.

Also, mines were of major importance in the Rusoo-Japanese War and WW I. Harbors could be mined to protect them from enemy blockades or bombardment; they would have no effect on friendly ships. Hence, another naval unit - coastal mine sweepers.
 
Originally posted by Supercilious
So, if I am not the French the Spearman would upgrade to a musketman?? But if I am the French it would upgrade to a musketeer?? In otherwords, if the upgrade of a unit is to a civ-specific unit but I am not that civ a default unit of similar (but weaker) strengths becomes the unit you upgrade to even though you can't find it in the Editor's upgrade box?? :confused:
Hmm, I don't understand the you can't find it in the Editor part.

It is simply this (in LWC): suppose the musketman is the strongest defense unit you can build. If you try to upgrade a spearman or pikeman as non-french, it will upgrade to a Musketman. If you are French, you will get a Musketeer instead.

However, without the LWC Mod, as French, you will not be able to upgrade your pikemen until you discover riflemen. You should be able to upgrade them to musketeers, but you aren't. And since the French can't build regular musketmen, you cannot upgrade to them. :crazyeyes

Am I making any sense? :) If I said something wrong, feel free to correct me.
 
Originally posted by Supercilious
There seems to be some misconception about "ironclads".

We should not even refer to the first of them (in History) - the French vessels of the Crimean War. Nor should we refer to the shallow draft coastal vessels typified by the Monitor at Hampton Roads in 1862.

The HMS Warrior was the first true, ocean-going metal warship, and you bet it travelled as fast or faster than any Ship of the Line even though primarily sail powered. It did have a steam engine and in fact was likely faster than SOL's dependent on winds and larger crews.

So the Warrior was a typical "ironclad" - not the Monitor.

"Steel warships" would be pre-Dreadnought (1904) warships, those of the 1890's. Battleships started coming in before WW I, and destroyers a little before that to counter the torpedo boat threat against the early battleships.

CONCLUSIONS:
Ironclads should be a bit faster than Ships of the Line.

We can also improve naval play by adding torpedo boat flottilla units - very cheap and capable of sinking steel warships but only in coastal or sea tiles. They could be countered with destoyers.

Also, mines were of major importance in the Rusoo-Japanese War and WW I. Harbors could be mined to protect them from enemy blockades or bombardment; they would have no effect on friendly ships. Hence, another naval unit - coastal mine sweepers.


The unit graphic seems to be of a Monitor style ship not shure
what conclusion to draw from that but i think i should be considered.
perhaps if your info is right the current ironclad graphic should be restricted to shore and we should try to find someone to make a model for the kind you are talking about.

The sea unit ideas you have here are GREAT a cheap unit that sinks in ocean
but is a decent attacker would be interesting and prob historicaly acurate.
kinda like the little PT boats from WW2, the were often made of wood with very light metal armor not very durable in other words but they were well armed for a ship of their size and very agile. (my info comes from a movie about then: JFK during his time on one in WW2 called "PT109" .made in the late 50's or early 60's check it out its good)
 
Originally posted by Lovro
. . .It is simply this (in LWC): suppose the musketman is the strongest defense unit you can build. If you try to upgrade a spearman or pikeman as non-french, it will upgrade to a Musketman. If you are French, you will get a Musketeer instead.

However, without the LWC Mod, as French, you will not be able to upgrade your pikemen until you discover riflemen. You should be able to upgrade them to musketeers, but you aren't. And since the French can't build regular musketmen, you cannot upgrade to them. :crazyeyes

Am I making any sense? :) If I said something wrong, feel free to correct me.

So. . . with such as "musketeer" in the Editor upgrade box for pikemen, all civs will upgrade to MUSKETMAN, but the French will get the civ-specific equivalent (musketeer).

I ask all that as I do not want to PREVENT most civs from upgrading if a civ-specific unit is in the upgrade box. No problemo??
 
Originally posted by Joben



The unit graphic seems to be of a Monitor style ship not shure
what conclusion to draw from that but i think i should be considered.
perhaps if your info is right the current ironclad graphic should be restricted to shore and we should try to find someone to make a model for the kind you are talking about.

The sea unit ideas you have here are GREAT a cheap unit that sinks in ocean
but is a decent attacker would be interesting and prob historicaly acurate.
kinda like the little PT boats from WW2, the were often made of wood with very light metal armor not very durable in other words but they were well armed for a ship of their size and very agile. (my info comes from a movie about then: JFK during his time on one in WW2 called "PT109" .made in the late 50's or early 60's check it out its good)


My info is correct.

Let me simplify. . .

1. Ironclads (REAL ironclads): should be the same speed as SOL's but be "sink in ocean".

2. Steel warships: That would be ocean-going metal vessels with both sail and steam, such as the famous HMS Warrior. Should appear very soon after ironclads. Yes, I know when the Warrior came on line, but most nations did not get them until after Hampton Roads in 1862. Should be faster than any SOL.

3. Early battleships. After steel warships (starting historically in the latter part of the 19th century) but the same speed. In naval terminology, a 'B'.

3. Torpedo boats - a big threat to B's (as were those mines).

4. Destroyers. Invented to "destroy" torpedo boats.

(Yes, I also know in game terms these would come quickly one after the other, but that's the way it was, and in a game a fast upgrade can turn the tide in a naval conflict in Civ III).

5. Battleships. Post-1904 when Dreadnought began; she was the first "all big gun" BB.

6. Super battleships with the Yamato or Iowa in WW II.


You want to add fast cruisers, fine. But with the restrictions on attacking trade in the game there hardly seems any point. The Germans used both cruisers and subs to seriously damage british shipping in WW I.

Also, ships pre-BB were coal-burners. They should have a much more limited time at sea (range/fuel problems). Coaling was needed. Not required for the game, but worth a mention!
 
Originally posted by Supercilious
I've read Firaxis has deigned to come out with a new Patch: 1.17,

The LWC mod (#5) is in my Scenarios folder. The Fascist mod is in the Civ III folder. the 1.16 Patch was installed.

I am rather pleased with the LWC mod, esp. as I have tweaked it a bit.

If I install this new 1.17 Patch will it effect game play and values with the LWC mod?


OK, this question still needs an answer! :)
 
Originally posted by Supercilious
I ask all that as I do not want to PREVENT most civs from upgrading if a civ-specific unit is in the upgrade box. No problemo??
With LWC, no problemo.
With Civ3 1.17f (apparently), no problemo.
With Civ3 1.16f, _yes_ problemo.

:D
 
I'm now working on ERP6, which will be guaranteed to have full compatability with 1.17. However I've heard it already works just fine with the patch.

So just reinstall the mod after you've installed the patch, and it should be totally playable and with all the known additions of the patch.

I'll be taking a look at the patch later to determine if there are any unmentioned changes to the .bic file, but there may not be.


ERP6 will most likely be available around Monday, but it could be released earlier if I don't have to do much to update it for the patch.



So yes, LWC will be updated to reflect any (good) changes that are made in the patch.


And on the UU unit upgrades:

You can only upgrade to a unit if you are normally able to build it, no matter if it was in the upgrade line or not.

In other words, there are no known bugs in the upgrade system of LWC and it works just fine.

I don't know how 1.17 of civ3 handles the upgrades yet (that is, what they changed to make it work), but I'll figure it out.
 
Ergo, I will therefore assume that if a civ-specific unit is in the upgrade box for a generic unit (such as pikemen) it will default to another generic unit if the civ in question is NOT the one with that unique unit.

I assume this is correct. If not, I will soon be facing hordes of obsolete units!


This mod is so much better than what Firaxis threw at us, including right down to the visibility of resources. :goodjob:
 
Originally posted by Plutarck
I don't know how 1.17 of civ3 handles the upgrades yet (that is, what they changed to make it work), but I'll figure it out.
From the readme:

Changes v1.17f:
Civ-specific units are now part of the regular upgrade chain.

So, basically, the same thing you did in the mod.
 
Lovro,

Some seem to, but some don't. Pikeman appears to upgrade just to musketman, but knight upgrades to rider. That after the 1.17 patch. There are other examples of that. Curious.
 
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