Looking for advice on space victory

[~Ben~]

Hello.
I have just completed a Noble level 1946 space victory.
I read some articles on this website that were originally threads about space victory for advice. I have some questions to ask. How many cities are preferable? I had 8 cities total shraing a continent with the french. I was not sure when to stop expanding and when to start concentrating on infrastructure that i settled on 8. I executed an oracle "sling-shot" to get civil service then went for liberalism. On the way i picked up some other wonders, pyramids and great library. After biology i was not sure if any particular route was most benificial so i just picked routes to SS parts one at a time. I would like to bring the time down on my victory substantially. I used some cottages and scientist in cities to boost science yet i still only reached space at 1946. I know this game is so different from civ2. I will never get a pre AD spaceship in civ4 but i would like to try to get a pre 1900 spaceship atleast. I am looking forward to any guidance.

 

[kossin]

Pre-AD space win requires cooked settings.

The larger your empire, the faster you will have every tech required to launch.
Also, a large empire can get a very powerful Mining Inc Corporation to actually build those parts fast.

In "regular" settings: playing on higher levels is the best way to accelerate space as you can trade with the AI and don't have to self-research everything yourself. Odds are you'll go into State Property (and Caste System if you can manage the Emancipation unhappiness) and build workshops pretty much everywhere to get the most production possible.

Of course you can manage Space in OCC, with 6 cities, less, more, but the more you have is usually the fastest way to get there. It's a bit counter-productive though because by the time you have that much land it's just faster (in term of years) to win Domination/Conquest/Diplomacy.

 

[Rusten]

In "regular" settings: playing on higher levels is the best way to accelerate space as you can trade with the AI and don't have to self-research everything yourself. Odds are you'll go into State Property (and Caste System if you can manage the Emancipation unhappiness) and build workshops pretty much everywhere to get the most production possible.

No. Lower difficulties are faster with regular settings too.

 

[~Ben~]

Hello kossin.
I am not entirely convinced about huge empires being the best way to go about things. They require armies to aquire and all the time building units is time not spent on improvements and scientists. Can these turns be recovered latter on? I do not know where the balance is between effective empire size and scientific research. I dont have access to mining companies. I use Civ4 1.74. I did not use workshops effcetively though and i will have to remember this on my next play.
I used China and the leader Qin in my last game.
I will play on monarchy next. Having someone else research tech i can use will help.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I am not entirely convinced about huge empires being the best way to go about things. They require armies to aquire and all the time building units is time not spent on improvements and scientists. Can these turns be recovered latter on?

Yup.

A couple of points: if you fight an early war well, subsequent wars are much more effective: (a) you have promoted units to work with (b) you have more production to generate replacement troops.

You can also use your military as a research engine, extorting technologies from your weaker neighbors.

A larger empire is less efficient than a smaller one, but makes up the difference on volume.

 

[mirthadir]

Space requires a good research base followed by strong production.

The easiest method to learn is cottages. Early on snag as much territory as possible with settlers - ignore the early wonders, beeline writing and pottery. Early on concentrate on working resource tiles (get techs like BW, AH, etc.). Block out a line of cultural border where the AI can't slip past (you can fill in behind it later). Use slavery to whip in grainaries and libs and then work as many green cottages as you can.

Get monarchy/calendar quickly for more happiness (resources/HR) and keep working more cottages. Tech to CoL - build courthouses, currency - build markets (this will take a while), and then on to CS (revolt to B), paper, edu (build unis/oxford) and on to lib (if you think you can win it. You want to get PP and then move on towards democracy (libbing Nationalism and building the Taj is a common strategy); your civics should flip to US/FS/whatever/Eman/OR(FR). From there you should either beeline corporation (and mining/medicine) or communism (for SP). After that you have two basic choices for space:
1. Get Superconductors and labs.
2. Get The internet.

The first let's you research faster, the second let's you catch up to the AIs. If you have only one (or no) AI ahead of you tech, go for option 1, if you are far behind go for two.

After that get Apollo done, push out to fusion, and build the spaceship. Build the cheap parts in your lower level production cities. Building docking bays and engines in your major cities (IW city and wherever else). Trade for resources if you lack them (Al and Cu) or use corps (AlCo).

Now I've left out a lot of stuff, like how to maintain an army or how to play the diplomatic game, but the above mechanics work for a solid pre-1900 win.

Huge is generally better than small for space wins. More land lets you run more cottages and have more dedicated cities. With corps, it is no contest that being bigger is faster.

 

[kossin]

No. Lower difficulties are faster with regular settings too.

Hmmm. Agreed - if you consider Oracling CS and taking Assembly Line from Liberalism as a regular setting

However, you are right: the reduced maintenance (to the point of non-existing) makes it a lot easier on Settler if you decide from turn 0 that you want a Space Victory.

 

[~Ben~]

Thankyou all for the input.
I will take away this advice and put it in to practice.
I will try and manage a larger empire as has been advised. Although I prefer to run a smaller nation. I may have to consider a different victory condition. Possibly cultural or Diplomatic if these can be achieved in very early times.

 

[bestsss]

@kossin,
I think on noble I can beat a deity space launch as well. Add Darius/marathon for some real fun (err real tedious)

 

[yanner39]

Space requires a good research base followed by strong production.

The easiest method to learn is cottages. Early on snag as much territory as possible with settlers - ignore the early wonders, beeline writing and pottery. Early on concentrate on working resource tiles (get techs like BW, AH, etc.). Block out a line of cultural border where the AI can't slip past (you can fill in behind it later). Use slavery to whip in grainaries and libs and then work as many green cottages as you can.

Get monarchy/calendar quickly for more happiness (resources/HR) and keep working more cottages. Tech to CoL - build courthouses, currency - build markets (this will take a while), and then on to CS (revolt to B), paper, edu (build unis/oxford) and on to lib (if you think you can win it. You want to get PP and then move on towards democracy (libbing Nationalism and building the Taj is a common strategy); your civics should flip to US/FS/whatever/Eman/OR(FR). From there you should either beeline corporation (and mining/medicine) or communism (for SP). After that you have two basic choices for space:
1. Get Superconductors and labs.
2. Get The internet.

The first let's you research faster, the second let's you catch up to the AIs. If you have only one (or no) AI ahead of you tech, go for option 1, if you are far behind go for two.

After that get Apollo done, push out to fusion, and build the spaceship. Build the cheap parts in your lower level production cities. Building docking bays and engines in your major cities (IW city and wherever else). Trade for resources if you lack them (Al and Cu) or use corps (AlCo).

Now I've left out a lot of stuff, like how to maintain an army or how to play the diplomatic game, but the above mechanics work for a solid pre-1900 win.

Huge is generally better than small for space wins. More land lets you run more cottages and have more dedicated cities. With corps, it is no contest that being bigger is faster.

This post in general was informative for me. Just a quick question: I assume that Universal Suffrage is used to get hammers from you towns. Would it also be a good idea to stay with Caste System and use HR to manage unhappiness if Eman becomes an issue? So would the production from Workshops/Caste/Guilds/Chemistry/state Property outweigh the production from getting those hammers from the towns in US? Situational I guess?

EDIT: There is also the issue of not being able to use Mining Inc. if SP is used. That may also be an important factor to consider.

 

[Groogaroo]

With regards to best tech path on the spaceship techs a good article is Winning the Space Race Peacefully – The Endgame after several space wins I found this path tends to be the best route.

I also started a thread a little while ago seeking advice on the best tech paths between Libralism and the space techs Post Lib tech path on the race to space. so maybe there might be some useful tips in there some where.

I'd avoid the space elevator (dunno if you go this route or not) as it tends to slow space race wins overall considering the extra techs you need and time to build it.

Concerning empire sizes, I've found on higher levels I need to get some early warring with a view to developing a large empire early in order to get a quicker launch. My quickest space win on Emporer was 1878ad with 24 cities (roughly 25% of land) and no warring after muskets.

Good luck with Monarch

 

[mirthadir]

This post in general was informative for me. Just a quick question: I assume that Universal Suffrage is used to get hammers from you towns. Would it also be a good idea to stay with Caste System and use HR to manage unhappiness if Eman becomes an issue? So would the production from Workshops/Caste/Guilds/Chemistry/state Property outweigh the production from getting those hammers from the towns in US? Situational I guess?

EDIT: There is also the issue of not being able to use Mining Inc. if SP is used. That may also be an important factor to consider.

I advocate US because you are running a low food build with this strat, so rep is not efficient with few specs. Also, rushbuy can be effective for getting quick infra up. This leaves us with PS and HR. Toss the first unless you plan a war and the second is only if happiness becomes a major issue. Normally it doesn't. Doubling all those happy resources, getting the "hits", etc. tends to make for few happy problems if you are in eman.

Now it's true that caste will power up a WS, and I actually agree that going HR/Caste can work once you have the infra built in the commerce cities. If you expect to gain more net by going caste/HR over US/Eman then go for it instantly (this means look at what infra you have left to build and how long that will take); if you expect to make more to be used on spaceship parts (and more specifically if you expect to make more in your bottleneck cities) then flip over to caste/HR (assuming it is worth the anarchy, you are SPI, or have CR).

SP actually has nothing to do with you tiles at this point. You can use corps food to feed food deficit WSs just as well as you can use SP food. Corps at least should be competing with SP food and SP (and in my estimation tend to handily beat those two); no distance costs vs extra trade also are normaly in direct competition.

Generally if my corps options suck -> go SP. If my corps are huge (e.g. AlCo is my only shot to get Al) then go FM and get either Mining or CreCon/AlCo(/CivJ) and pick the best option of Sushi/CM/SE. Please note that on a food rich map SE can often be the best choice buckets of science and the ability to sell oil for massive cash.

 

[yanner39]

I advocate US because you are running a low food build with this strat, so rep is not efficient with few specs. Also, rushbuy can be effective for getting quick infra up. This leaves us with PS and HR. Toss the first unless you plan a war and the second is only if happiness becomes a major issue. Normally it doesn't. Doubling all those happy resources, getting the "hits", etc. tends to make for few happy problems if you are in eman.

What do you mean by this? You mean trading for happiness resources, getting hit movies, musicals etc...

Now it's true that caste will power up a WS, and I actually agree that going HR/Caste can work once you have the infra built in the commerce cities. If you expect to gain more net by going caste/HR over US/Eman then go for it instantly (this means look at what infra you have left to build and how long that will take); if you expect to make more to be used on spaceship parts (and more specifically if you expect to make more in your bottleneck cities) then flip over to caste/HR (assuming it is worth the anarchy, you are SPI, or have CR).

SP actually has nothing to do with you tiles at this point. You can use corps food to feed food deficit WSs just as well as you can use SP food. Corps at least should be competing with SP food and SP (and in my estimation tend to handily beat those two); no distance costs vs extra trade also are normaly in direct competition.

Yeah, good point. I just need to generate a GP to form the corp. But it's true what you say about SP.

Generally if my corps options suck -> go SP. If my corps are huge (e.g. AlCo is my only shot to get Al) then go FM and get either Mining or CreCon/AlCo(/CivJ) and pick the best option of Sushi/CM/SE. Please note that on a food rich map SE can often be the best choice buckets of science and the ability to sell oil for massive cash.

 

[mirthadir]

What do you mean by this? You mean trading for happiness resources, getting hit movies, musicals etc...



Yeah, good point. I just need to generate a GP to form the corp. But it's true what you say about SP.

I mean that over the course of the game you unlock progressively more happiness resources and double them (building things like markets, theaters, and forges). The "hit" wonders are singles, musicals, and movies. At the end of the game natural 30 caps without touching the slider are easy.

Yeah, good point. I just need to generate a GP to form the corp. But it's true what you say about SP.

The merchant/scientist/artist ones should be easy if you can slip into caste/pac during a GA and run hard at it in your NE city (assuming you didn't already do that at an earlier GA). GEs are a bit harder to come by, but once you hit industrialism you can normally make a decent go of it; worst case scenario is to nerf the IW city to get one. Generally, at this point in the game I'm trying to build a diverse set of GP so I can either found corps or run my 3rd/4th/5th GA.

It should be noted that all of the GP needed for 4 corps are given as freebies in the tech tree. The GA comes early and the GE way late, but the merchant and the scientist are on required techs.

To get the most out of corps, you really should plan for them early.

 

[yanner39]

Concerning empire sizes, I've found on higher levels I need to get some early warring with a view to developing a large empire early in order to get a quicker launch. My quickest space win on Emporer was 1878ad with 24 cities (roughly 25% of land) and no warring after muskets.

This is pretty amazing. I mean, in my current game on Noble, it's 1902AD and I'm about to start building the space ship parts. I have 14 cities. You must have a pretty high tech rate in what the 1500'sAD? Do you do alot of tech trading or do research everything yourself? It must be a great economy your got going there.

 

[Groogaroo]

This is pretty amazing. I mean, in my current game on Noble, it's 1902AD and I'm about to start building the space ship parts. I have 14 cities. You must have a pretty high tech rate in what the 1500'sAD? Do you do alot of tech trading or do research everything yourself? It must be a great economy your got going there.

It was actually the Nobles club Mehmed game where I achieved that result and yes it was a very favourable map. Cloesest saves I have to the 1500's were...

With 24 cities and no corps

1300's - 458 @60% +8 per turn... that was right after a war mind you and before recovery.

1700's - 1934 @90% +35 per turn

Generally on Emporer I rely on a lot of techtrading throughout the entire game however the Mehmed game was different, after lib hardly had to trade at all right through to the win.

My earliest space race win prior to that was another Nobles club game, the Julius game... Won space in 1985ad funiily enough I had a slightly larger empire and a much higher tech rate that game...

with 27 cities & Sushi corp

1700's 3234 @80% +154 per turn


I've attached the mehmed saves if you want to take a look...

 

[yanner39]

It was actually the Nobles club Mehmed game where I achieved that result and yes it was a very favourable map. Cloesest saves I have to the 1500's were...

I guess the saying "playing the map" is applicable both way. If you don't get a good map, it makes it harder. I know in my last couple of games, my capital's starting location wasn't the best. In some cases, I should have even relocated my capital to take advantage of buro.

Anyways, my last space win was in 1978AD (noble). I was side-tracked by a modern war with Isabella - a few of her cities' culture was encroaching on my cities and I lost a few towns. I took 3 cities and vassalized her.

I guess how quick you get the win depends on external factors.

 

[mirthadir]

Somewhere I have an immort 1830 something win to space. That one is highly unfair because I got BW (Rushed HC for a free SH + GW) and Astro from huts and got to lib sci meth (which is pretty good for Wang running cottages and not having TGL). Gandhi vassalized himself to me for free. I rolled to a quick cannons + airships + garbage war which got me around 45% of the land and two nice vassals (one of the English out on a nice 5 city island and MM, with everything but a nice cottage city and his cap); Sushi + Mining were dropped into my Hindu holy city (thank you HC) and the rest was history. Trading with vassals is extremely strong and I got all their resources for mostly free which made for some idioticly strong corps (I also had the vassals running SE eventually). I was running 100% slider on a FIN cottage empire with bonus . I managed to have 3 MoM (conquest) GAs and just power out parts.

I even manage to luck out on the the Elevator which I finished using the GE from Fusion.

There are two ways to win space fast, either be huge and have lots of of your own, or have lot's of AIs with which to trade. Useful vassals like Gandhi and MM will always trade with you, never research the tech you are gunning for (with a bit of micro) and set up some nice tech broker deals. Even with fewer BPT, you can make it to space far faster if the magical "trade multiplier" works out for you. Of course, being huge and trading works exceedingly well.

 

[catfish99]

I'd avoid the space elevator (dunno if you go this route or not) as it tends to slow space race wins overall considering the extra techs you need and time to build it.

Ummm....what extra techs? It pops with Satellites, which you need for the Docking Bay anyway.
If you have all the proper resources, the hammer cost of a fully tricked-out space ship is 12,400. The ladder will cost you 1000 hammers, for a savings of 5,200 hammers.
How could this slow space race wins overall?