Looking for help

[Sandman2012]

I've been reading the strategy guides and threads here, but I'm still having trouble advancing past regent level in C3C. If I wanted to upload a saved game here to get some pointers on what I might be doing wrong, what year / turn is a good one to upload?

 

[777]

I think it doesn't count. As long you have more than one city, one worker and one unit you can upload savegame at any point of game. Perhaps after ancient time would be good.

 

[thetrooper]

Some will definitely look for a granary in your capital and complain a lot about it if there isn't. I think you should post a save from middle to end of expansion phase.

 

[Turner]

I would say upload at the point you're having problems, myself.

 

[vmxa]

Yes provide a save from some point where you feel you need help. The only value to earlier saves is to allow someone to play it out to show that a given style would work.

The main reason that players break down above Regent is they do not value their workers and do not manage their empires. That and spacing of cities is too wide, but that is not fatal at Monarch level.

This is presuming that your start location is not a complete disaster. In that case you need to be very skillful and determined. Since Monarch level is the first where the AI gets a bonus, it is not intended to be a walk over.

 

[MRick]

I also found there was a gap in the difficulty level between Regent and Monarch.

I always won more or less easily on regent, but always lose on Monarch.

Now I'm ok on Monarch, I found that :

I used to place my cities to far from each other.

I was used to lead the IA in research, and always have few but better units than the IA, and I didn't know how to win a war without having superior units.

I didn't use Artillery.

I didn't built enough workers.

I never built the Great Library (It's useless in low difficulty)

I didn't trade techs with the IA.

 

[Sandman2012]

Thanks for the responses so far guys.

It may be a little time before I can upload a saved game. I'm playing a Regent level game right now that's going alright. Part of the problem I have is finances. During the expansion phase I have a hard time keeping enough military units and workers while being able to keep my sliders high enough. Two workers per city seems rather high in the beginning, especially since city populations are low and Despot robs you of excess commerce and food. I've overcome "Wonder Addiction," usually only building one in a game. Trading techs with the AI seems difficult. I'm always behind the leaders, which I'm not used to.

I'm glad to hear that the Regent to Monarch jump wasn't that easy. I've heard others say there is barely a difference. In any case I'm gonna play a bit more and see where my weaknesses are. Right now in my Regent game I'm in the early industrial age, second place score-wise, but it's a distant second, nearly 400 points behind the leader (Mayans).

 

[vmxa]

I think you gave a strong clue to the issue. By IA you should be ahead or close in most games. Not having trading possiblities, suggest that your empire is not optimal.

Watch the citizens to see that they are working improved tiles. You need enough workers to keep up with roading and mining and an occassional irrigation. If you see all citizens are on tiles that are improved, you should have no big problems.

Do not make all structures in all towns, be sure they will pay off. Avoid the temptation to get a temple in all cities. Libs in towns that yield only 1 beaker are also to be avoid, yes there are exceptions, but leave them alone till you have total understanding of the game.

Do not let workers work tiles that are not going to have a pop on them. Hold off on mountain tiles, till nothing else is needed or it has a resource/lux.

Barracks in only troop producing towns and skirmish towns. Those alone should get you going. Keep an eye on civs to see if they have workers for sale and buy them always.

 

[777]

I've allmost allways kept AI under my steel fist. If it seems that AI starts to go forward, push 'em with little war. That's what I do and then claim their techs in peace negotiations, try to keep WLTK day in newly annexed cities. Culture flip can be huge pain in the ass and crack your nerves bad time. And about wonders, forget minor and let AI to do those and then you capture 'em. GL, Sun Tzus, Leonardos are ones to look forward.

Don't look so much to points, power is something what's more important to keep eye on. And I've seen that agressive playing style is key to victory allmost every time.

What gov. you use?

I jumped from Warlord to Monarch, it wasn't so hard jump than Chieftain -> Warlord jump That was to me quite a pain

 

[Brain]

Part of the problem I have is finances. During the expansion phase I have a hard time keeping enough military units and workers while being able to keep my sliders high enough. Two workers per city seems rather high in the beginning, especially since city populations are low and Despot robs you of excess commerce and food.

This may be due to several things:
- Did you road all tiles? I guess with 2 workers per city you should have.
- Are you in Republic or Democracy? Avoid Monarchy.
- Do you have luxuries? If not then get some or make trade routes and trade them.
- Did you build marketplaces?
- Are you keeping a lot of defenders in your cities? That's not a good idea. After the expansion phase you should only keep defenders in border cities that can be reached by the AI in one turn and sprinkle some fast moving forces to cover other cities. Once you have railroads connect all your cities and use only one artilery/attacker stack to defend all your cities.

Trading techs with the AI seems difficult. I'm always behind the leaders, which I'm not used to.

Go for the techs that the AI doesn't research and trade those. Never research what the Science Advisor advises you. That's what the AI would do.

To be effective in trading you have to trade with all the AIs on every turn. Otherwise, they will trade between themselves and you won't have anything to offer. Throw everything you've got at them - gold, luxuries, world maps - all EXCEPT contacts. If you have contacts that other civs don't have then you can be the broker in all the trades and make a good profit.

This brings me to the point about wonders. If there is lots of water and you want to build only one wonder you should go for the Great Lighthouse. It will get you monopoly contacts early in the game, which you'll be able to keep at least until Navigation.

 

[Sandman2012]

Some good advice here, including some I hadn't heard before. The defenders thing is new to me. I've always kept a few in each town.

In any case, here's a zip file with two saves from the same game so people can see where I was and where I took the game. It's Regent level (I'm trying new strategies on a level I'm familiar with), and I'm playing as France (I usually don't play France, but I wanna break old habits so a new Civ seemed like a good idea). It's a small map Pangea (I wanted a shorter game to try the new strategies - I usually play standard size with continents).

I had an awesome start in this game - two wheat right next to my capital. This is probably the best start I've had and it shows. No iron, but I'm trading for it. I got lots of luxuries early on and it helps immensely. I'm better off than I've been since I started experimenting with a new play style, but I still need a lot of help. I'm interested to hear comments.

 

[vmxa]

France is very strong, I will look at this is a bit.

 

[vmxa]

I am sorry I forget what was going on before this save. It looks pretty fair, but just when I was done and had a few things to say, I saw NO HORSES.

Holy cow Batman, racing toward MT and no horses where built? I know the debate goes back and forth, but in a small pangea crank out horses. You do not want to built calvs from scratch with these size 6 cities and a few 8's.

You have about 12 warriors and 15 MedInf and you are 4 turns from MT. I would have much rather seen 10 Meds, 15 horses. Skipping Knights is a good plan on larger maps at Emperor, if you are stacking up horses and cash. Large numbers of horse to keep the AI from getting froggy and cash to upgrade to calvs.

Here you have no horses ready. Ok that is done, so be it. I am also not fond of trading 2 luxs to anyone, especially for Iron. If you had those horses ready, then great, but you will be doing well to get 2 rounds of calvs in before it expires. I am going to split this into a second post or it will be too long.

 

[vmxa]

Amiens offers a smart place for those who notice it is making 4 shields and two are lost to corruption. You have a citizen on a mountain with no mine or road, so it makes one shield. If you move that pop to a coast tile, you do not lose any net shields, you still net 2 shields, but now get 1 food and 3 commerce before corruption. A market would be nice here.

Sell the wall and switch to aqua to grow. In fact sell all walls and never build another in any game, until you are comfortable at emperor. Walls are not needed, except for special conditions, this is not one of them. The only time I tend to use a walls is for an invasion city on civs that I know will field 300 or more hundred units in the first 3 waves, so far that is only at sid. A wall here can save the day (along with a barracks).

I still do not care for having two workers clearing the jungle while worked tiles are not even roaded. Lets get the easy stuff first. Leave one worker if you must. You have number of tiles worked and no improvements, one city has two pop doing it. Another 6 gold a turn or so is a good thing.

Marselles making an aqua and it is size four and not growing. Either irrigate a plains or switch to a harbor.

Grenoble citizen on a hill that has no road or mine. Move to plain and gain 2 gold and since a worker is improving it, will gain either another shield or more food. Also pay attention to what workers are up to and what the pop is working. Mate them as often as you can. Move a pop to a better tile, move the worker to the best tile to gain from any improvement.

Not a bad job, but in a tough spot you just do not want to leave things on the table. I feel that at monarch and lower and a good start you can get away with laziness. At emperor, it starts to hurt some and above that or with a poorer start, it can be fatal.

I am talking about builder types or semi builders. Blitz players will have the troops to correct mistakes and not be afraid to use them.

Go get em.

 

[Sandman2012]

Interesting points. I almost never make horsemen. I didn't think the extra movement made up for the fact they are 1/1 attack/defense. I'll try 'em out next time. I was racing for Military Tradition becaus I had no iron, so I figured Cav would be my main offense.

You mention not trading two luxeries for anything. I always seem to have a hard time with trades, always on the poor end of a deal (or no deal). Any tips? What effects trade deals? I usually don't suffer rep hits so that can't be it. What else is there?

Another question: someone mentioned not bothering with defenders in cities. What about MP? In a government that allows MP, doesn't it make sense to do so?

Thanks for the comments so far. I'm interested in getting more opinions as well.

 

[TimBentley]

Interesting points. I almost never make horsemen. I didn't think the extra movement made up for the fact they are 1/1 attack/defense. I'll try 'em out next time. I was racing for Military Tradition becaus I had no iron, so I figured Cav would be my main offense.

Chariots are 1/1; horsemen are 2/1. In your situation, the reason to build horsemen is so you can get cavalry for 30 shields and 150 gold by upgrade rather than for 80 shields.

 

[vmxa]

Horses are 2 attack and do surprisingly well. My only concern with giving two luxs is how much good it will do that civ, not weither I got a fair deal. If I need the cash, I may have to do it, but I want to at least not trade it to the top civs.

Yeah I know that is what you were thinking, no Iron limits your options. As to MP's. it is a double edged sword. I try to get by with out much use of it as I want my troops fighting, not on MP. To this end, despotism is for the start and you have few cities, so the slider and luxs can handle it. Then I do not like to go to an MP gov as I want those units fighting. So one click on the slider covers the one MP and that could free up a lot of units. I want those units to be attackers, not defenders.

As to trades, I heard there was a good training thread on that issue. Me I am not real big on trades. I do them to cover needs and get something out of techs before they are worthless. In the main the AI knows to get value for luxs that will do you more good than yours does them. It knows how to value techs, so that it will not just sell you a tech, because everyone knows it, if you are a long ways from getting it on your own. It also is not willing to trade techs that have wonders pending or combat units. That just makes sense.

The problem is that people see that say Monarchy is not a big deal as the player already is in Rep. So they want it dirt cheap. The AI knows it yields a wonder and that wonder is not built yet, so it is worth a lot from that perspective. You see this with Nationalism. Late in the age, most have it and I skipped it. Players now want it for a song, but the AI wants a lot for it still. This makes sense, if you view it as the doorway to another unit (Rifles) and allowing Mobilization, Drafting, MPP, Embargos and Police Officers.

 

[Brain]

Interesting points. I almost never make horsemen. I didn't think the extra movement made up for the fact they are 1/1 attack/defense.

Horsemen are 2.1.2.

You mention not trading two luxeries for anything. I always seem to have a hard time with trades, always on the poor end of a deal (or no deal). Any tips? What effects trade deals? I usually don't suffer rep hits so that can't be it. What else is there?

What do you call a "bad deal"? You have to expect paying a lot of gold to get techs, or pay gold per turn. Nothing is free. Think about it - If you set your science slider high you're spending a lot of gold per turn and get your tech only after several turns. Now add up all the gold you spend on science and you'll see that each tech is really expensive. After this exercise the deals you're making with the AI might not seem that bad after all.

Another question: someone mentioned not bothering with defenders in cities. What about MP? In a government that allows MP, doesn't it make sense to do so?

It's a question of cost versus benefits. Let's see the benefits first:

- Every unit, up to the military police limit, makes one citizen content.
- Every unit improves city defense.

Now the costs:

- Every unit costs some shields.
- Every unit counts towards the unit support limit.

Okay, so let's see how we can improve this. Let's say that you replace every three spearmen defenders with one horseman covering three cities, and you use it to attack pre-emptively instead of waiting to be attacked. That already reduces your shield cost by two and your support cost by three, and you have the improved defense. In fact you probably have BETTER defense because the enemy units are probably attackers that have low defense value. So attacking them first is better than waiting to be attacked.

Now, the only thing remaining is the content citizens. If you increase your luxury slider you're going to pay one gold per content citizen per turn. So what you have now is:

Defenders:
X shields
1 support cost

versus

No Defenders:
1 gold per turn
X/2 shields
1/3 support cost

HOWEVER, this changes as soon as you have more units than your support limit. At that point every unit costs 1 gold per turn (or maybe even 2), so the 1 gold per turn cancel out. Then you have:

Defenders:
X shields
1 support cost

versus

No Defenders:
X/2 shields
1/3 support cost

I think it's not difficult to see which option is better.

The no defenders option is at least two times better, but if you have cities close by and very fast units then you can increase this factor several times.

You may feel like some things are better or worse, but you don't really know for sure until you evaluate everything rationally. Try it some time, it really changes the way you look at the game.

Thanks for the comments so far. I'm interested in getting more opinions as well.

Well, I can't open your save, but I can give my opinion on whatever you may post here.