Lor gotm 1 - dar

[Syiss_]

I'll give this a try when I can but I'm probly gonna get destroyed.

 

[unclethrill]

Update: I'm thinking of going after Pericles or Mansa Musa but Skirmishers are a killer... hmm... What do you guys think?

I say kill um all if you can!


BTW. looking at your pic, map terrain looks different than mine. Much more like it does without the mod. Are you able to run without the blue marble or are you just at a lower graphics level? I like the detail the the terrain has right now but it is difficult for my eyes to register everything with all the subtle colors (I'm partially color blind).

 

[rkade8583]

LoR Light, my man! It takes all that art away so our poor eyes don't cry

 

[bigfatjonny]

Okay, I started last night with a couple trial maps to get a hang for what I was in for. After 3 trial runs on test maps, I found that:
1. Those barb cities will become minor civ really quick.
2. When they become minor civs, they all seem to have metal techs and 6 or 7 units.
3. The map fills up quick.
4. Don't build settlers. Take other cities.
5. Get Archers fast and build a bunch

Hi Unclethrill! Please you like LOR.

This is some good analysis, I wish I had also done this before I started. Even though i have played LOR lots, and used all the options before, I have never had a game like this before.
I am used to playing on PerfectWorld standard, which is much much bigger than this map, and loads more land area. The difference in the land area much really affect how the barbs and minor civs are all squashed together.

Just for clarification, the options Barbarian World, and Start as Minors aren't considered normal starting options. They are "challenge options" designed for warmongering. bigfatjonny started this GotM with those options on to demonstrate some of the new aspects of LoR,

Hell no, all LOR extra turned on = standard for me now, I think Barb world and civ, and revolutions are they way it should be played

I am so suprised how much different this game is to any other ive played before, ive been top dog on emperor using PerfectWorld quite consistantly.

In reply to your posts Unclethrill;

This setup is great for the warmonger in me but it doesn't lend itself to anything else early on. No time for early religion. No time for early wonders. No time for commerce.

Actually I think this is your (and my) undoing. The differences in this game tend to make you really paranoid. You must keep up with commerce, research and city specialisation - standard Civ concepts - or you will lose. This game has the added bonus of serious amounts of minor civs and early attacks.
With no commerce tiles in the BFC in the capital, religion on Monarch is unlikely, even if we are enlightened.
Also, not industrious, no stone or mable early on = not easy for early wonders.

The barb cities seem to start with 3 or 4 units and so when they change to minor civs they already have enough units to aggressively attack. And they do often so don't overextend.

This was new to me too. Lesson learned.


Rkade:

I'm thinking of going after Pericles or Mansa Musa but Skirmishers are a killer... hmm... What do you guys think?

that looks like a nice stack of cata's and Elephants on the way! I can't see the rest of your opponents to know who to attack. I just hope they havent out teched you so you are attacking with out of date units.


Anyway... on with the game. I will post a few more screenshots soon & my analysis.

 

[bigfatjonny]

DAR part 2.

So my plan is to cottage the grasslands and expand to 5 cities.


These are not the optium city sites but they are close together which reduces disctance from capital penalty for revolution, and it means a smaller number of units can defend the territory.

I have a couple of minor chokes on the Itroquois and the Bazantians. This should hold them up from expanding slightly.


Maybe someone can explain how the Itroquois have just generated a great spy in 1150 - and Confuncianism hasnt been founded yet?!? And he doesnt have the great wall?

Anyway, I found two of my planned cities and set the capital to run two scientists - this keeps the ok even though the slider is low.



All cities are protected by a stack which can move into any city in 1 turn, they sit in a triangle from all three cities. This is an effective way of defending using less units.
However this doesnt stop me losing Damascus to a rogue Sioux Brave (2 moves) and then taking it back next turn. From then on I always keep 2 defenders in the border town.

 

[bigfatjonny]

385bc - Some action.

I take a poorly defended Sioux town. Up to now Sioux seem to be the most powerful civ and are top of the leaderboard.
Afterwards they show up with a small stack so I go for peace - I have (hopefully) held up their development a bit by now. Unsure if they have metal or if it is just the stack they started with. They definately have horses.

My choke on the west has failed - the Byzantians have built a second city. My units are still there though and stopping them fully developing.

Strangely the Iroquois take the Confusian holy city - I though they were the weakest of the two!

The Sioux seem to do nothing about this and dont attack back.
I cant quite take the city as it is on hills but I can burn their other city to my north which is in the way of my development.



I would like to turn around and take the Byzantium capital city, but the Itroquois are too dangerous - they have a lot of units and are trying to choke me.
I have pre chopped all the forests around my capital, my plan is to go tech to Athesitics and then the great library with Marble.

I settled a GS in the capital. He gives 6 per turn. I could have popped Math but the settled GS is a 67 turn payback compared to math (408 for maths / 6 = 67 turns) which I think is good on epic speed.

 

[unclethrill]

I am at about 1700AD now but the game isn't going anywhere. I still have 4 cities and I think I can take 3 more but it won't help.

I will make another run and I think the key is to hinder the AI to be successful. Build lots of warriors/archers and send them out to pick off everything that moves.

It's a plan at least. May not be a good one but I'll try.

 

[unclethrill]

LoR Light, my man! It takes all that art away so our poor eyes don't cry

Can I load both? It says that the light version lacks the ethnic art. Does that mean the unique unit art is different? I really just want to do without the land art but I like the rest of the art.

 

[unclethrill]

Can I load both? It says that the light version lacks the ethnic art. Does that mean the unique unit art is different? I really just want to do without the land art but I like the rest of the art.

So the answer is no. When I try to load the light version, it says that it is already loaded and do I want to uninstall it.

 

[bigfatjonny]

I am at about 1700AD now but the game isn't going anywhere. I still have 4 cities and I think I can take 3 more but it won't help.

I will make another run and I think the key is to hinder the AI to be successful. Build lots of warriors/archers and send them out to pick off everything that moves.

It's a plan at least. May not be a good one but I'll try.

4 cities at 1700 isnt any good. Im used to 6 cities by 1AD.
This game is hard.

 

[unclethrill]

4 cities at 1700 isnt any good. Im used to 6 cities by 1AD.
This game is hard.

Yes it is. Replaying isn't normal for a GOTM but this one is so tough that a few replays are needed for any chance of a win

 

[phungus420]

I find it easy to beat a game with these settings on Monarch, maybe it's the map, but then again the starting position doesn't look too bad. It just seems weird to me that you all are claiming it's so hard. I may need to fire this up to see for myself. It's not a fair test though, as since I've seen the map I know I could just beeline 300 spartans, and there is no better way to hold off early barb civ and minor civ attacks then the 300.

@unclethrill
The changed terrain graphics are from installing the "enhanced graphics" add on when you installed LoR. Reinstall, and this time just don't select that optional add on, and your terrain will be normal BtS, the other ethnic art will still be there.

 

[unclethrill]

@unclethrill
The changed terrain graphics are from installing the "enhanced graphics" add on when you installed LoR. Reinstall, and this time just don't select that optional add on, and your terrain will be normal BtS, the other ethnic art will still be there.

Worked perfect! Thanks

 

[bigfatjonny]

OK, im in third position on score in about 1750AD.
Very interesting game ahead - the starting game is only part of the puzzle.
I will post some screenshots later.

 

[lymond]

I'm sorry but these barb civs develop entirely too fast. It's ridiculous. Maybe it's the level, I don't know, but Monarch shouldn't be this hard regardless. After what seems like a few turns and getting your worker techs, nearby barb civs develop and are more advanced than we are. Just not fair. Just got my second city down and a stack of 4 Greek spearmen destroy it. I don't even have metal yet.

I think this GOTM is a good idea, but I question the Mod itself. I've only messed around with it a little, but I don't find this fun at all.

 

[unclethrill]

Okay so BFJ, any chance of getting a .9.8 version of the save. I really don't want to uninstall and reinstall so if the answer is "no" I figure I'll just start a new game for testing.
I can post it if there is a desire for a second GOTM style game.

 

[bigfatjonny]

Nope, I dont think so, it isnt save game compatible. Sorry.

I suggest that we start a new 0.9.8 GOTM in a week or two. Best not too rush too much, I still havent finished the last game.
The idea is to build some momentum for the GOTM and get more interest. Next time I will be a bit more official about it and lock the world editor etc and create more DAR sections eg 4000 - 0 bc, 1 - 1000 ad like in the main GOTM's.

If you want to start a new game and discuss it thats fine, lets just not too many GOTM on the go at once though, or everything will get too disorganized.
At the beginning of next week we can start to discuss the starting options for next time.

 

[bigfatjonny]

It is war.

1060 AD - The Itroquois are gone now. The Sioux are ahead in tech, the Byzantians are still well behind and have not proper defenders.
I am 7th in Tech. This is not a problem, WAR - consolidate - WAR - consolidate. Just have to manage the revolutions situation.



War plan is Byzantians > English > Sioux. There will be no mercy, and no capitulations. It is clear that there I am on a small island and there are 4 civs a lot further ahead than the Sioux in tech.
Plan - Take whole landmass > Build > Specialize cities > get level in tech > invade some small shmuck & get a footing on new landmass.

I dont know what victory im going for yet.

1255 AD - Byzantian is gone. Destroyed by Elephants and ctats. This is my future wall street.



1405 - English are about to be destroyed. London is a very tasty city site.
Even though im behind in tech, im the largest, and plenty more land for me to take soon.



1500 AD - Didnt have enough to totally take english. Take tech for peace, then gte ready to attack again in 10 turns. My position as of 1500 AD. On the way to guilds for Camel archers, arab UU.

 

[bigfatjonny]

I'm sorry but these barb civs develop entirely too fast. It's ridiculous. Maybe it's the level, I don't know, but Monarch shouldn't be this hard regardless. After what seems like a few turns and getting your worker techs, nearby barb civs develop and are more advanced than we are. Just not fair. Just got my second city down and a stack of 4 Greek spearmen destroy it. I don't even have metal yet.

I think this GOTM is a good idea, but I question the Mod itself. I've only messed around with it a little, but I don't find this fun at all.

It is (almost) a different game to BTS. Think 'outside the box' and forget all the gambits you know from BTS. You are surrounded by minor civ who havent developed peaceful dialogue yet.
No point in trying for 'a oracle slingshot' if you are about to be destroyed. React to your surrounding, this is what makes LOR so wonderful.

My build queue was something like this warrior, warrior , warrior , warrior , worker, warrior , warrior
Yes, normally warriors are useless, but in this game when you dont have anything else they have to do. Afterwards they can act as a good sentry unit for your security net/monitor.

Send a couple of warriors out to the minor or barb cities and camp in forests to stop them developing their tiles. Send archers later for the same thing. As soon as you can build some chariots and/or axes + spearmen. Slavery to use the food resources around your capital.
When the barbs pop to minor civs they will bring about 4 extra spearmen/axe/chaiot with them.

Tech to AH and farming so you farm the cows & corn. Go to archery for defense. Slavery to use the food resources around your capital. When you are in a more stable position, go for a settler, but not towards one of the minor civs unless you can defend.

Just a few ideas about how I did it, the rest is up to you,

 

[bigfatjonny]

OK, my last post for this game as I have played many more turns on my other machine and somehow managed to lose the save - and I dont want to replay them.

1847 - I have captured the continent and discovered the rest of the world. I have traded quite a lot to get near to tech parity.


I am number 1 in land area, and in a consolidation phaze. I have moved to Representation to make use of my oxford city with 6 specialists, and running Free speech to allow for full cottages in my other cities.
I now have the tech per turn lead - allowing rifling in 3 turns ! - and a decent treasurery.



I feel that I can now comfortably turn this in to a win.




Final Thoughts.

The initial stages of this game were very intense and difficult due to the two barb civs that were placed very close to the starting position. This meant that there were five civs on a very small continent, very unusual for a non LOR game.
It is win-able, however it took me a number of replays to get it right. Maybe Phungus' suggestion of using the 300 would have helped to counter the other civs. The difficulty was caused by the barb to minor civ 'pop' where the new civ would start with a size 5 city and several bronze age tachs and strong units, mainly spearmen and chariots, where as I only warriors and just got chariots.
I have played a few other test games. I usually play PerfectWorld where the world is much larger and has a lots less starting civs per amount of land, this is why I have never coma across this before. Barb civ is a lot less of a problem when there are less starting civs spread over a wider area.

I know that the comments are that this game was too hard, but I enjoyed the challenge of working out why it was hard, and how to beat it. This level of early warfare and destruction represents the real world better imho and I like the LOR barb world & civ options.