Losing Battle

[BretP]

I am playing as the Celts, it is about 1650 and Persia just declared war on me. My military is suffering from a 1000 yr war with Carthage. According to my spy, the Persians have 53 calvary, I have 10. I have Infantry. My questions is do I keep building calvary in hopes of fighting them off, or do I build infantry and artillary to defend my cities before I lose to many of them. In 2 turns I will have ToE built which should move me closer to tanks. Once I have them I can fight back ands win. On the Demographics page, I am ahead in all of the improtant stuff.

Can any offer advice. I don't want to lose now.

 

[Arutha]

All you need to win industrial age warfare is artillery (tons), infantry, and a military railnet.
The age of cavalry is over, so don't waste ressources building obsolete units.
Tanks will make offensive warfare easier, but they're not a must-have until mech inf.

 

[rdomarat]

I'd crank out some infantry and try to hold them off. Infantry are only slightly more expensive than cavalry (90 vs. 80 shields), and have the same attack value of 6. The trade off is obviously the 3 moves from the cavalry versus the 10 defence from the infantry. If you're close to ToE and not too far from tanks, I'd try and let the AI send stacks of Cavalry against fortified infantry in your cities. Keep you 10 cavalry around to pick off the wounded AI cavalry in the open and then retreat back to the city.

If you've got gold to spare, I'd also consider an MPP with another Civ in an attempt to force the Persians into a multi-front war. Obviously, you'd like to choose someone near the Persians to sign the MPP with, so that help comes sooner rather than later.

Edit : Also, don't give up. Even if you're losing cities because you can't crank out the units fast enough, you will learn a lot from losing. Seeing how the AI thinks it needs to mount a successful attack is neat to see. The next time they go all out and attack you and you're stronger, you'll have more knowledge with which to fight back.

 

[Phantom Lord]

Artillery / Infantry is the way to go, maybe walls in small cities. Cavalry can't be upgraded, building cavalry is not a good investment in the industrial age and infantry should wear cavalry down. Use your own cavalry only to kill off retreated 1 hp enemy cavs.

Some military alliances wth Persia's neighbour could help as well.

 

[Woody]

I agree with whats been posted so far, the only thing I would say different is you are bound to have some cites that will produce calvalry one turn quicker than they will produce infantry. (for example cities with 42 prodution will make a cav in two turns but will take three for a inf) I would produce cavalry in those cites, having a few cavalry around doesnt hurt. You can pic off wounded units/workers with them for the rest of the game.

 

[BretP]

None of the other Civs will enter an alliance or a MPP because they are afraid of the Persians, and I have broken a treaty or two. I suspected the Inf. were the way to go, but wanted other opinions. The Persians have an awesome military. I am not sure I will be able to beat them. Thanks for the help.

 

[steviejay]

I've had worse odds than that. best thing to do is batten down the hatches with infantry and ride it out. its best to not invade them less you activate a MPP and you've then got a war on another front.

Pick a line of cities and move every non essential unit into them, (even conscripts, especially conscripts)whilst you use your rail link to move the art to places that need it the most, a rather strong SoD perhaps that needs to get worn down a bit.

I agree with Woody, use your own Cavalry EXTREMELY carefully. you want to wear down the Persians but not sacrifice your own units in the process. Only attack units that allow your own units to get back to a city in one turn, no matter how tempting the target.

If you keep wearing them down then "hopefully" they will start to talk to you again and you should sell your granny to get that peace. even if it only lasts for a few turns. In that time you can reinforce and repair your fortifications

When it gets to that point you have two choices-

1. try and get some friends or at least some offensive units

or

2. sit behind your fortifications with you d**k in your hand waiting for them to get tanks and come beat the living s**t out of you.

I chose option 1 and I whooped their ass..... true this was because we allied with each other to attack a growing enemy....... but I defeated them none the less

 

[BretP]

Using the Infantry worked. I was able to save all but one of my cities, and it wasn't really mine any way. I was bale to kill 14 of his cav units before I lost that city. On the next turn he offered peace and I took it. Now switched back to Democracy to get a tech lead, and I am building up my military again. Thanks for all the advice. It saved my empire at a critical moment.

 

[Greyhawk1]

I managed to survive as a civ through to 2050 even though the continent I was on get devastated by war and I lost every one of my cities in my earlier empire.

The Zulus were 5 techs in front of everyone else after being at war since day one and were attacking me with Cavalry when I had Knights, a handful of Musketmen and a motley assortment of ancient/medieval era units.

I valiantly defended city for city, making them pay dearly for each one they took. When the end was near and I was down to a few cities the survivors gathered on the only beach I had left, said tearful goodbyes to the suicidal defenders that would remain and set off in Caravels, One Settler and two units in each for a new island I had recently discovered far from the mainland.

The remaining defenders held the Zulus off long enough to allow my ships to escape and land the survivors on their new land, capitol and all. I stayed in that stagnated state until 2050 when the Zulus won. I still had a decent score anyway due to my earlier expansion. The Zulus only sent a couple of Caravels my way then left me alone for the rest of the game.

I call it the "Escape Pod" strategy

 

[Zcylen]

dont waste money, time and shields building more cavalry but dont disband them.
build more artillery and infantry and attack.
use your cavalry only to pillage the enemy's roads, mines and irrigation.
with 3 moves you can easyly go-pillage-return

 

[BretP]

Fter switching to Democracy, I have a 4 tech lead on the Persians. I am 1 tech away from tanks, I will buld up a huge number of them and then CRUSH the Persians for their mistake of attacking me. hehe

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by BretP
Fter switching to Democracy, I have a 4 tech lead on the Persians. I am 1 tech away from tanks, I will buld up a huge number of them and then CRUSH the Persians for their mistake of attacking me. hehe

I hope you still have a lot of artillery. Tanks will slaughter them on open ground, but if you're planning on taking a few metropolises fortified with infantry, you're gonna lose 1/2 your tanks in the first battle.

 

[BretP]

I still have 20 artillery, plus I am capturing cannons in every city and upgrading them the same turn. The Persians are almost done. I have taken the capital. This will be my first win on PTW, and it may be my first conquest victory. The Persians and France are my only competition right now. The rest will fall easily. Thanks for all the help.

 

[Shillen]

I hope you still have a lot of artillery. Tanks will slaughter them on open ground, but if you're planning on taking a few metropolises fortified with infantry, you're gonna lose 1/2 your tanks in the first battle.

Well as someone who disagrees with the importance of artillery I wanted to say this is really untrue. Almost every game I use tanks against infantry in metropolises and I never lose 4 tanks on one city. Usually 0-1. You must be forgetting that they retreat when they're losing.

Best idea is to get flight after motorized transportation and build a bunch of bombers. Those are useful, artillery is too slow. I only use artillery for defense, and only when I have railroads throughout my empire.

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by Shillen


Well as someone who disagrees with the importance of artillery I wanted to say this is really untrue. Almost every game I use tanks against infantry in metropolises and I never lose 4 tanks on one city. Usually 0-1. You must be forgetting that they retreat when they're losing.

Best idea is to get flight after motorized transportation and build a bunch of bombers. Those are useful, artillery is too slow. I only use artillery for defense, and only when I have railroads throughout my empire.

Well, the combat odds calculator shows vet infantry fortified in a metropolis will win 70% of the time against a veteran tank. Not all 70% will die, but 35% or more probably will. If you're willing to sacrifice 1/3 of your tanks for every city you take, ok.

Bombers are ok, but #1 they can be shot down by fighters or SAMs, and #2, they also have to rebase every few cities. Arty can also be built MUCH sooner than bombers, allowing you to start taking metropolises using cavalry instead of tanks. It only takes 1 turn (usually) to move the arty into position, which also allows my tanks to heal for a turn.

 

[Shillen]

Originally posted by billindenver


Well, the combat odds calculator shows vet infantry fortified in a metropolis will win 70% of the time against a veteran tank. Not all 70% will die, but 35% or more probably will. If you're willing to sacrifice 1/3 of your tanks for every city you take, ok.

Bombers are ok, but #1 they can be shot down by fighters or SAMs, and #2, they also have to rebase every few cities. Arty can also be built MUCH sooner than bombers, allowing you to start taking metropolises using cavalry instead of tanks. It only takes 1 turn (usually) to move the arty into position, which also allows my tanks to heal for a turn.

35% or more will die? Sorry about 3/4 or more will retreat before dying. And you're also assuming that there's just as many defenders for the city as there are tanks attacking. Most cities have 2 infantry. On top of that their infantry are usually conscripts/regulars while all your tanks should be veterans or elites. If you attack with a stack of 8 tanks usually when you take it you'll have lost 1 tank and 3 would be at 1 health, with the remaining 4 still full health. You're not losing nearly 1/3 of your attack force. During one of these wars I'll be able to take 3 cities per turn and the I'll still be producing more tanks than I'm losing. Artillery would make the war take twice as long because you have to move them into range, then bombard on the next turn, instead of attacking on the first turn. This is particularly costly in a republic or democracy because a prolonged war equals more war weariness.

Bombers are rarely shot down. First of all I usually have flight before the enemy does. But even when I don't they usually only have one fighter so I lose one bomber, then I destroy their fighter when I take the city. And rebasing only takes one turn, while moving your artillery takes at least 1 turn, usually more.

But I'm sorry for getting this thread on a tangent.

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by Shillen


35% or more will die? Sorry about 3/4 or more will retreat before dying. And you're also assuming that there's just as many defenders for the city as there are tanks attacking. Most cities have 2 infantry. On top of that their infantry are usually conscripts/regulars while all your tanks should be veterans or elites. If you attack with a stack of 8 tanks usually when you take it you'll have lost 1 tank and 3 would be at 1 health, with the remaining 4 still full health. You're not losing nearly 1/3 of your attack force. During one of these wars I'll be able to take 3 cities per turn and the I'll still be producing more tanks than I'm losing. Artillery would make the war take twice as long because you have to move them into range, then bombard on the next turn, instead of attacking on the first turn. This is particularly costly in a republic or democracy because a prolonged war equals more war weariness.

Bombers are rarely shot down. First of all I usually have flight before the enemy does. But even when I don't they usually only have one fighter so I lose one bomber, then I destroy their fighter when I take the city. And rebasing only takes one turn, while moving your artillery takes at least 1 turn, usually more.

But I'm sorry for getting this thread on a tangent.

It would be nice if size 20 cities were only defended by 2 regular infantry, but that sure never happens in my games. If a city is size 20, it's almost always defended by at least 3 veteran infantry as well as 1-2 regulars or conscripts. With promotions, etc, it would take at least 15-20 tanks to kill all the infantry off in one turn.

Either we aren't talking about the same thing (size 20 cities) or you are bombing the infantry down to 1hp with bombers, cause in my experience, there is absolutely no way I could attack a size 20 city with 8 tanks and expect to capture it. Modern armor, yes, but not tanks.

I usually have flight before the AI too, but they always have it within 20 turns. I'm never more than 2-3 techs ahead of the most advanced AI's so leads don't last long. In my last game, I had 8 bombers ready to attack a city. The first two were both shot down by SAMs, so the rest didn't bother attacking.

 

[BretP]

This is the first game that I am making real use of the artys, in the past I have relied on just tanks. This does seem to be a little easier, but it has not made a HUGE difference yet. I have never found bombers to be worth the trouble. They are expensive and are not very effective.

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by BretP
This is the first game that I am making real use of the artys, in the past I have relied on just tanks. This does seem to be a little easier, but it has not made a HUGE difference yet. I have never found bombers to be worth the trouble. They are expensive and are not very effective.

Well, I must admit arty isn't perfect. It gets annoying seeing it miss everything 6 times in a row. I don't generally use more than 25, but a stack of 50 would probably do a much faster job. Trouble is, with my 25, about 1/3 are misses, and the remaining 2/3 are divided between blowing city improvements, hitting defenders and killing off citizens. I can never get the city down to size 6 AND knock all the infantry down to 1hp without bombarding for 2-3 turns, esp since the lost hp's are regained every turn. However, just knocking every infantry down to 2 hp's means the odds change from 70% against success for each tank to 67% in favor of each tank, even in a metropolis.

You might not get the job done a lot faster, but you will lose a lot less units. And losing less units means less war weariness.

 

[BretP]

I did not know that losing units caused war weariness. That is good not know. I learn something here everyday.