Lost Eden development thread

[Kilkakon]

Mhm... this is what I think about the balance situation so far:

Fallen are probably the most powerful faction. They tend to start losing towards endgame simply because even with being on erratic now, they are at war with everybody.

Realm are always dominant, probably as tough as Fallen. They tend to fare a lot better than Fallen lategame, as they tend to rally the other factions to unite against the Fallen.

Rakis tend to be dominant late game. They are quite powerful if they are not killed off early.

Protectors tend to be moderately dominant, although have been in the lead more than once.

CyndaTech tend to be moderately dominant. They have been in the lead before, although stronger factions like Realm or Protectors tend to kill them.

Adventurers tend to be moderately dominant. They are yet to lead in dominance.

Seafoam is a pure wildcard. The problem with Seafoam AI is that it doesn't consider Squirtles as suitable units to build for defending a base. So until they get another race's tech, they are victim to Carnivine attacks or enemy assualt. If they are lucky then they aren't beat up to badly and do okay, but yeah I don't know of any human player that doesn't build any defenders.

I recently added a Ballista to the game (5/1/2, arty) as some of those land bases are almost impossible to kill without softening them up.

 

[vyeh]

It sounds like the Protectors, CyndaTech and Adventurers need to get an additional minor bonus.

 

[Kilkakon]

I'll agree with CyndaTech and Adventurers. CyndaTech now have +SUPPORT. Not sure about what Adventurers should have.

Not sure about Protectors... my Dad just played a game on Talent and it took the combined efforts of both him (Rakis) and Realm to kill off Protectors over about 200 years.

I am tempted to give Seafoam Ancient Knowledge so they can build Weekping Idols. Doesn't really fit the team though. Man this unit restriction hurts.

 

[vyeh]

I'll agree with CyndaTech and Adventurers. CyndaTech now have +SUPPORT. Not sure about what Adventurers should have.

How about +1 ECONOMY {Every male is a jack of all trades}?

Not sure about Protectors... my Dad just played a game on Talent and it took the combined efforts of both him (Rakis) and Realm to kill off Protectors over about 200 years.

We should leave them alone.

I am tempted to give Seafoam Ancient Knowledge so they can build Weekping Idols. Doesn't really fit the team though. Man this unit restriction hurts.

You're talking about the restriction on icons, right?

 

[Kilkakon]

+1 Economy might be a bit much considering how easy it is to pump economy using SE. Toad's faction has only +1 Economy and he rakes in the gold. It isn't easy though... Adventurers are pretty much better off stat-wise now in comparison to Rakis if you don't count the Growth penalty.

And yeah I am talking about restriction on icons.

 

[vyeh]

+1 Economy might be a bit much considering how easy it is to pump economy using SE. Toad's faction has only +1 Economy and he rakes in the gold. It isn't easy though... Adventurers are pretty much better off stat-wise now in comparison to Rakis if you don't count the Growth penalty.

Some stats are better than other stats.

How about +1 EFFICIENCY {Every male is a jack-of-all-trades.}?

 

[Kilkakon]

Okay sure, +1 Efficiency it is. Adventurer females sound pretty dainty now don't they?

I've had a brainwave to change the basic Squirtles to Squirtle Sympathisers, i.e. humans on squirtle's side (if I had the icon room I would have a human with a squirtle shell helmet or something. ). That way it makes sense to have an infantry to start them off, which will help the Seafoam AI out a lot.

 

[vyeh]

Okay sure, +1 Efficiency it is. Adventurer females sound pretty dainty now don't they?

{Adventurer females are self-reliant after years of neglect by their adventuring spouses}

I've had a brainwave to change the basic Squirtles to Squirtle Sympathisers, i.e. humans on squirtle's side (if I had the icon room I would have a human with a squirtle shell helmet or something. ). That way it makes sense to have an infantry to start them off, which will help the Seafoam AI out a lot.

What is the equivalent for Squirties?

 

[Kilkakon]

Do you think that I should put in that little add to the Adventurer's info?

Here's the full tech tree. The recent change was to turn Tier 1 Squirtle from a 2 row 1/1/1 Gravship to a 1 row 1/1/1 Infantry.

Tier 1:
Human: Scout Patrol (1/1/1), 1 row
Charmander: Charmander (2/1/1), 2 rows
Rose: Regenerating Rose (1/2/1), Empath, 2 rows
Squirtle: Squirtle Sympathiser (1/1/1), 1 row
Native: Carnivine (?/?/1), 4 rows

Tier 2:
Human: Recon Rover (2/1/2), 3 rows; A.P.C. (0/2/2), 5 rows; Garrison (1/3/1), 3 rows
Charmander: Charmander Warrior (4/1/1), 3 rows; Charmander Defender (1/3/1), 3 rows
Rose: Demonic Rose (5/2/2), Empath, Trance, Fusion Reactor
Squirtle: Squirtle (2/1/2), Gravship, 4 rows
Native: Floating Vine Mass (?/?/4), 6 rows

Tier 3:
Human: Super Hovertank (8/1/3), 8 rows, Spy (0/1/2)
Charmander: Charmander Superior (6/2/2), Drops up to 6 squares, 8 rows
Rose: Rose of Destruction (10/2/2), Empath, Trance, Quantum Reactor
Squirtle: Wartortle (5/2/3), Gravship, 8 rows
Native: Doom Butterflies (?/?/4), Gravship, 8 rows

Others:
Gunboat (2/1/4), 3 rows
Destroyer (5/2/6), 6 rows
Ballista (5/1/2), 5 rows
Weeping Idol (1/4/1), 2 rows

 

[Kilkakon]

I am at a bit of a loss as to what to do to the project at the moment.

I am waiting on sketches from my friend so I can't do any more leader pics for the moment. I suppose I could post some of my expansion team ideas although it is probably best to stick with the first 7 for now. Seafoam still needs a logo, so I will try to get to that today (it's a creative thing; I normally just wait for the "aha!" moment and then go and do the logo).

I did experiment a bit with the units.pcx file, trying values above 8 to see what happened -- it didn't crash, but nothing had any desireable results.

 

[vyeh]

I am at a bit of a loss as to what to do to the project at the moment.

How about some free form games (try out some crazy strategies to see if you can break the game)?

I suppose I could post some of my expansion team ideas although it is probably best to stick with the first 7 for now.

Why not? It would be interesting.

 

[Kilkakon]

I'm not sure if I am insane enough, I tend to play rather green or go for economic victory. Maybe we should have a game sometime when there's less Arial text units. But yeah, what can you suggest to try?

I do know that Sealurks appear as foils with Psi attack and defence as I didn't have room for an icon for them. Thankfully they are pretty rare. Naval combat is also pretty boring at the moment(discovered when playing as the new Pirates).

As for the expansion teams, well I am not sure on what everybody is going to be, but I have three down:

Mushroom Merchants (I am in need of a good team colour suggestion, they have purple at the moment which doesn't work)
+1 ECONOMY: {Experience in running item shops, mini-games, etc.}
-1 MORALE: {Disinterested in combat}
COMMERCE: {bonus increases value of treaties, pacts, loans}
Begins with 100 extra gold.
{May not pursue All Must Die}

Blackband's Pirates (replaces Spartans so they get the black shields working right)
{Aquatic faction}
-1 EFFICIENCY {Individualistic mentality opposed to central organization}
-1 GROWTH {Culture does not place high emphasis on family}

The Rangers (heh first human leader woo!)
+1 PLANET: {Environmental safeguards; can recruit natives}
-1 ECONOMY: {Lack of interest in making money}
-1 MORALE: {Pacifist tendencies}
-1 POLICE: {Freedom loving}
Free TREE FARM in every base (unique facility)
{May not pursue All Must Die}

I think the Rangers are a bit tough. Not sure about the other two.

As for the remaining factions, I have yet to decide what species of leaders I am going to have. I am aiming to have 2 more females to even things out a bit; I wouldn't mind a Hitmontop but am yet to figure out a good faction to fit him. A spy team would be pretty cool, led by a human. It is hard trying to keep the factions original too.

As for now I will probably start the Rose of Destruction graphic as I am getting sick of Warcraft 3 at the moment.


EDIT: Ranger city done, Seafoam logo done, Rose of Destruction done. I also played a game, as Seafoam, won in 2 hours. Ecomonic victory is just SO easy to get (even though I increased the number of turns to win by 10). I wasn't even trying, I just hit comma and it goes "Oh yeah it's only going to cost 1720 gold." So go to civics, reorder things so I get +4 Economy... instant win.
2149 score by year 137. Should have played with Abundant natives.

All logos are done! Happy dance time.

 

[vyeh]

I'm not sure if I am insane enough, I tend to play rather green or go for economic victory. Maybe we should have a game sometime when there's less Arial text units. But yeah, what can you suggest to try?

Try taking a faction with high growth, popboom and go for diplomatic victory.

I do know that Sealurks appear as foils with Psi attack and defence as I didn't have room for an icon for them. Thankfully they are pretty rare. Naval combat is also pretty boring at the moment(discovered when playing as the new Pirates).

Why is naval combat boring?

As for the expansion teams, well I am not sure on what everybody is going to be, but I have three down:

Mushroom Merchants (I am in need of a good team colour suggestion, they have purple at the moment which doesn't work)
+1 ECONOMY: {Experience in running item shops, mini-games, etc.}
-1 MORALE: {Disinterested in combat}
COMMERCE: {bonus increases value of treaties, pacts, loans}
Begins with 100 extra gold.
{May not pursue All Must Die}

What is the difference from Morgan? Can the Mushroom Merchants grow beyond size 4?

Blackband's Pirates (replaces Spartans so they get the black shields working right)
{Aquatic faction}
-1 EFFICIENCY {Individualistic mentality opposed to central organization}
-1 GROWTH {Culture does not place high emphasis on family}

What is the difference from Pirates? The Pirates tend to be a strong faction.

The Rangers (heh first human leader woo!)
+1 PLANET: {Environmental safeguards; can recruit natives}
-1 ECONOMY: {Lack of interest in making money}
-1 MORALE: {Pacifist tendencies}
-1 POLICE: {Freedom loving}
Free TREE FARM in every base (unique facility)
{May not pursue All Must Die}

I assume they get the TREE FARM initially.What are the other changes from the Gaians?

I think the Rangers are a bit tough. Not sure about the other two.

For a human player. I wonder if the AI will plant forest.

As for the remaining factions, I have yet to decide what species of leaders I am going to have. I am aiming to have 2 more females to even things out a bit; I wouldn't mind a Hitmontop but am yet to figure out a good faction to fit him. A spy team would be pretty cool, led by a human. It is hard trying to keep the factions original too.

No need to rush.

EDIT: Ranger city done, Seafoam logo done, Rose of Destruction done. I also played a game, as Seafoam, won in 2 hours. Ecomonic victory is just SO easy to get (even though I increased the number of turns to win by 10). I wasn't even trying, I just hit comma and it goes "Oh yeah it's only going to cost 1720 gold." So go to civics, reorder things so I get +4 Economy... instant win.
2149 score by year 137. Should have played with Abundant natives.[/quote}

This is troubling. When you say you increased the number of turns to win by 10, you only mean the AI has 10 more turns to capture your capital, right?

All logos are done! Happy dance time.

 

[Kilkakon]

Try taking a faction with high growth, popboom and go for diplomatic victory.

Okay, I'll have a go on Saturday. I pretty much popboomed with Seafoam today.

Why is naval combat boring?

Land combat has lots of diverse unit choices, from heavy Rose units to speedy Recon Rover action (go Richard Baxter!) to Psi combat, etc. Naval action is limited to Gunboats (2/1/4), Destroyers (5/2/6) and Floating Vine Masses (?/?/4) I am just saying that there is a lot more room for exciting stuff. Maybe a sub.

What is the difference from Morgan? Can the Mushroom Merchants grow beyond size 4?

Yes.

What is the difference from Pirates? The Pirates tend to be a strong faction.

As this faction does not replace the hardcoded Pirates, they cannot build on deep water or get the mineral bonus from shelf squares.

I assume they get the TREE FARM initially.What are the other changes from the Gaians?

They don't have the ++EFFIC, and they get a -1 ECONOMY. The Tree Farm of course is a unique bonus which would help throughout the game... it might warrant more penalties.

For a human player. I wonder if the AI will plant forest.

It plants Forest in Arid squares and so on. I haven't really tested it for long though.

No need to rush.

Sure. I am on holidays now though, so I have lots of time to spare.

This is troubling. When you say you increased the number of turns to win by 10, you only mean the AI has 10 more turns to capture your capital, right?

Yes, it now takes 30 turns to win.

 

[vyeh]

Land combat has lots of diverse unit choices, from heavy Rose units to speedy Recon Rover action (go Richard Baxter!) to Psi combat, etc. Naval action is limited to Gunboats (2/1/4), Destroyers (5/2/6) and Floating Vine Masses (?/?/4) I am just saying that there is a lot more room for exciting stuff. Maybe a sub.

Maybe.

As this faction does not replace the hardcoded Pirates, they cannot build on deep water or get the mineral bonus from shelf squares.

I thought all aquatic factions were able to build on deep water and get the mineral bonus from shelf squares.

They don't have the ++EFFIC, and they get a -1 ECONOMY. The Tree Farm of course is a unique bonus which would help throughout the game... it might warrant more penalties.

Let's see how it playtests. I think there may be enough penalties.

It plants Forest in Arid squares and so on. I haven't really tested it for long though.

That is pretty good.

Sure. I am on holidays now though, so I have lots of time to spare.

I hope you aren't offended, but do you have a faction that are basically Christian fundamentalists?

Yes, it now takes 30 turns to win.

I guess there is no way to make an economic victory more costly in alphax.txt ...

 

[Kilkakon]

I thought all aquatic factions were able to build on deep water and get the mineral bonus from shelf squares.

Well these ones definitely can't, I have played a game with them until about year 150 when I got bored. (hence me saying that naval action could be made more exciting)

Let's see how it playtests. I think there may be enough penalties.

Sure; of course it depends on how much the AI popbooms. A smart human would just forest and forget and pump out colony pods.

I hope you aren't offended, but do you have a faction that are basically Christian fundamentalists?

No, but I have an Athiest one.
Here's the breakdown of what the factions really are so far:
Realm: peaceful Christian people that hit back hard when they want to
Fallen: perverted Demon people that end up hated by everybody as they are defiling the place
Rakis: wants a perfect society for everybody
Protector: wanting to overrun the planet with natives
Seafoam: just wants to expand, their home island was way overcrowded
CyndaTech: aggressive Athiest people; all must die (similar to Nazi but different motives)
Adventurers: just want to explore and have fun
Merchants: just want to make money
Rangers: want to build a society where animals live alongside people
Pirates: pillage and loot etc.

I guess there is no way to make an economic victory more costly in alphax.txt ...

No there isn't.

 

[vyeh]

No, but I have an Athiest one.
Here's the breakdown of what the factions really are so far:
Realm: peaceful Christian people that hit back hard when they want to
Fallen: perverted Demon people that end up hated by everybody as they are defiling the place
Rakis: wants a perfect society for everybody
Protector: wanting to overrun the planet with natives
Seafoam: just wants to expand, their home island was way overcrowded
CyndaTech: aggressive Athiest people; all must die (similar to Nazi but different motives)
Adventurers: just want to explore and have fun
Merchants: just want to make money
Rangers: want to build a society where animals live alongside people
Pirates: pillage and loot etc.

How about the spy team faction also has +RESEARCH in addition to +PROBE? These could be atheist who are information specialist.

No there isn't.

Maybe the +ECONOMY in your SE is too much.

 

[Kilkakon]

With the spy team, sure that sounds like a plan, although I am having trouble finding a good pic to base the leader pic off.

And with Economy, yeah... I agree. Maybe we could make the only Economy bonus in the Initiative area... or going back to having Research up there.

 

[Buster's Uncle]

James Bond in a wetsuit?

 

[vyeh]

With the spy team, sure that sounds like a plan, although I am having trouble finding a good pic to base the leader pic off.

Human? Gender?

And with Economy, yeah... I agree. Maybe we could make the only Economy bonus in the Initiative area... or going back to having Research up there.

I think we don't want any faction except the Mushroom Merchants going beyond +2 ECONOMY.