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LotR 3 - Emperor Training
- Thread starter Arathorn
- Start date
Arathron,
I was doing some thinking about your always connect up the road philosophy and I have some comments. I too used to always do both mines and roads but now I find myself, especially in the early game, trying to make sure that no citizen works a non optimal square from a shield or irrigation perspective.
I say this because the only scarce resources in the early game are workers, sheilds, and food. Commerce is always over produced as there is no reason to research science much. So if I get a city that has two shielded grasslands next to each other I will mine, mine, road, road. In the past I would do mine, road, mine, road. Doing the mines first gets me that extra sheild faster. For that first city, likely with no corruption, that can get extra units or granary/temple up to 6 turns sooner.
I also find myself not connecting up my early cities but instead moving the worker to them first to get the improvements in place without waiting on the early road. The bonus to corruption and the commerce aren't that valuable.
I especially think the river has a big impact to this strategy when you can improve tiles next to a river they get the commrece of a road automatically so you get the best of both. Any comments?
I was doing some thinking about your always connect up the road philosophy and I have some comments. I too used to always do both mines and roads but now I find myself, especially in the early game, trying to make sure that no citizen works a non optimal square from a shield or irrigation perspective.
I say this because the only scarce resources in the early game are workers, sheilds, and food. Commerce is always over produced as there is no reason to research science much. So if I get a city that has two shielded grasslands next to each other I will mine, mine, road, road. In the past I would do mine, road, mine, road. Doing the mines first gets me that extra sheild faster. For that first city, likely with no corruption, that can get extra units or granary/temple up to 6 turns sooner.
I also find myself not connecting up my early cities but instead moving the worker to them first to get the improvements in place without waiting on the early road. The bonus to corruption and the commerce aren't that valuable.
I especially think the river has a big impact to this strategy when you can improve tiles next to a river they get the commrece of a road automatically so you get the best of both. Any comments?
It's not about commerce -- it's about worker time and movement. And connectivity. But mostly about worker time. The commerce is nice, but it's a sidelight, IMO.
Let's look at the two situations.
Mine, move, mine, road, move, road.
Takes 6+1+6+4+1+4 = 22 turns (assuming my numbers are right -- one of the things I've not paid attention to is exact worker times for various tasks).
Production is 6 turns of no mine, 7 turns of one mine, 4 turns of two mine no road, 5 turns of two mine/one road, and then two mine/two road for a long time.
The next task can't really start until turn 24.
Mine, road, move, mine, road.
Takes 6+4+1+6+4 = 21 turns, getting the worker onto his next task earlier.
Production is 6 turns of no mine, 4 turns of one mine, 7 turns of one mine/one road, 4 turns of two mine/one road, and then two mine/two road ever after. Cost is (over 22 turns) 4 shields to get 11 commerce -- the other appears better.
HOWEVER, the next task starts on turn 23, meaning the NEXT city/square is done one turn earlier, which brings one of those shields back into the fold, and then the task after that is started TWO turns earlier, adding two more shields, and so on.
Short-term, your method would have a slight advantage. Long-term, roading each square before leaving it has a major advantage. The key is that worker time is precious (doubly so, if you're like me and this game and terminally short of workers).
EXTRA NOTES:
- This example assumes no corruption. Corruption simply makes the road-before-leaving example better.
- Irrigation should work similarly, but there's a question of earlier growth and its long-term effects, too. I still suspect the long-term growth via worker actions is the key factor, however.
- Roading each square has the additional property of hooking up resources/luxes faster.
- 11 commerce vs. 4 shields is actually reasonably close. A swordsman costs 30 shields OR 10 shields and 40 gold (via warrior upgrade). That's a 2:1 ratio. OTOH, spending 10 shields and buying (in a non-despotic govt) the rest costs 80 gold for a 4:1 ratio. Splitting the difference at 3:1 makes it VERY close.
- I didn't consider the TIMING of the shields, which can be important. If you have a case based on that, I'd be interested in seeing it.
Arathorn
Let's look at the two situations.
Mine, move, mine, road, move, road.
Takes 6+1+6+4+1+4 = 22 turns (assuming my numbers are right -- one of the things I've not paid attention to is exact worker times for various tasks).
Production is 6 turns of no mine, 7 turns of one mine, 4 turns of two mine no road, 5 turns of two mine/one road, and then two mine/two road for a long time.
The next task can't really start until turn 24.
Mine, road, move, mine, road.
Takes 6+4+1+6+4 = 21 turns, getting the worker onto his next task earlier.
Production is 6 turns of no mine, 4 turns of one mine, 7 turns of one mine/one road, 4 turns of two mine/one road, and then two mine/two road ever after. Cost is (over 22 turns) 4 shields to get 11 commerce -- the other appears better.
HOWEVER, the next task starts on turn 23, meaning the NEXT city/square is done one turn earlier, which brings one of those shields back into the fold, and then the task after that is started TWO turns earlier, adding two more shields, and so on.
Short-term, your method would have a slight advantage. Long-term, roading each square before leaving it has a major advantage. The key is that worker time is precious (doubly so, if you're like me and this game and terminally short of workers).
EXTRA NOTES:
- This example assumes no corruption. Corruption simply makes the road-before-leaving example better.
- Irrigation should work similarly, but there's a question of earlier growth and its long-term effects, too. I still suspect the long-term growth via worker actions is the key factor, however.
- Roading each square has the additional property of hooking up resources/luxes faster.
- 11 commerce vs. 4 shields is actually reasonably close. A swordsman costs 30 shields OR 10 shields and 40 gold (via warrior upgrade). That's a 2:1 ratio. OTOH, spending 10 shields and buying (in a non-despotic govt) the rest costs 80 gold for a 4:1 ratio. Splitting the difference at 3:1 makes it VERY close.
- I didn't consider the TIMING of the shields, which can be important. If you have a case based on that, I'd be interested in seeing it.
Arathorn
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 19,922
Actually, there is another subtle factor here.
The city in question builds a unit.
If the road is there, then that unit saves a turn.
This small savings in time could have major effects such as:
1) Getting a city build 1 turn earlier - could be very important if in a race for a critical city space.
2) Speeds up the exploring process. One turn sooner to where you want to be.
Don't knock the commerce effect - If you have been a couple bucks short of an early buy of something good, it matters.
I would hate to miss a chance to buy early workers being a couple of bucks short.
If you have to research heavy the extra dollar my get a tech a turn sooner.
The city in question builds a unit.
If the road is there, then that unit saves a turn.
This small savings in time could have major effects such as:
1) Getting a city build 1 turn earlier - could be very important if in a race for a critical city space.
2) Speeds up the exploring process. One turn sooner to where you want to be.
Don't knock the commerce effect - If you have been a couple bucks short of an early buy of something good, it matters.
I would hate to miss a chance to buy early workers being a couple of bucks short.
If you have to research heavy the extra dollar my get a tech a turn sooner.
OK before I post, I want to say that I re-read Arathorn's comments on the official turn (architect) AFTER i played. This led to me continuing the great Pyramid folly! BUT! fear not chaps, the other Civs have all decided the Great Library is the better way to go! We might get hurt in the Great Cascade though (they are equal cost in shields).
I have been doing all that is possible to push Sala in growth and shields -- at the cost of NF's reduction in both.
Sala is size 9 and growth in 4 turns, and has its first waste behind it already. this means additional shields will not waste for a while. Pyramids due in 22 turns, but can cut that to 20 after irrigation and roads are finished in the mountain pass north of sala.
Here is my turn:
Preturn:
Survey the land.
Sala is going to riot. I make a scientist there as
i can't take no progress at all in tech.
Goals:
This is a tough one.
1) make the elephant gambit. We are in no way ready for war and
we have a possible opportunity to grab some resources
which will help us for ages to come.
2) Get the pyramids! with them, we can abandon granary plans for
other uses.
3) irrigate to SR
4) connect the iron and start making an army to be feared.
Sala is producing well! too bad it is going to riot. i wonder how
we keep it happy AND producing at this point?
Change OS to settler from granary (pyramids).
Change NF to galley (will complete next turn).
(i) nothing
1 975BC
NF completes galley, switches to worker
OS completes settler, switches to spearman
OS worker - west up Iron Mountain
scout stays put, even though he wants to go exploring.
change Catta to Barracks (from granary).
GR switched to harbor (from granary).
A to barracks.
Catta worker - N to cattle (mine and road)
notice russian worker roading 2 squares S of catta- possible
incense trading opportunity.
Centralia founded! temple begun to get whale.
diplo-
argh! in my game we werent behind in tech and i let this
influence my thinking - should have checked diplo
sooner. we do have a ton of gold though!
oh my. egypt will charge us 290gp +WM for philo and construct
russia 300gp + WM
india - only has philo hmm only 1 GP in treasury.
china - 280gp for both.
ok, this makes it easy. buy philo from india.
const from china, sell const back to india to get our
philo gold back. Construction is important,
so i dont mind paying for it.
india: Philo + WM for WM + 60gp
china: Const for WM + 230gp
india: 61gp for Const
russia: WM for WM + 1gp (the extra one i got from india
)
landbridge still isnt completely revealed.
egypt: WM for WM -- landbridge revealed - IT ISNT ONE!
We are alone with these 4 civs on this continent.
(i) Sink Barb trireme 1hp loss
Indians are building the pyramids. this calls for lux increase so
sala can keep up.
2 950BC
lux rate to 10%, sala changed back to forest.
switch NF off of hill mine and onto plains mine.
sala will take the hill mine - this allows both cities to
still grow in 2 turns, but shaves 4 turns off of pyramids
OS worker - road the iron!
Settler boards the Santa Maria in search of elephants!
scout sits
Catta worker - mines cow
(i) China wants WM for WM, i agree
2! russian settlers south of Catta - not sure where they are going.
3 925BC
scout sits.
Catta worker moves south into jungle to road! this may seem like weed
but i think a trade route to russia (and possibly china soon)
seems worth it.
GR worker finsihes mine -hmmm. i want to irr to SR, but tis a long journey.
decide to make it. 4 turns to desert mountain pass.
SR worker roads on mine
galley progresses down the coast.
(i) russian settlers move west
sala and niagra grow!
4 900BC
MC worker. N to road
galley moves
scout sits
Catta jungle worker roads.
diplo - everyone has currency and india is rich? maybe they
discovered it, bought it from china for WM+140gp
stop workers goto - he is going to mine and road hill se of sala
worker in NF will start the "SR project"
(i) Russia kicks out the galley
Russia has Monotheism, but won't trade.
4 875BC
NF completes worker, some MM to get NF to grow before next completes
Sala moves off of irrigated plain to river grassland to allow this.
pyramid build time unaffected - growth slowed to 6 turns
hmm NF worker loses a movement point crossing river
i have construction??
scout sits. spots ANOTHER russian settler heading west (3 so far)
galley investigates St. Petersburg.
MC worker roads
argh- other worker also loses movement point.
diplo -
we are in a great position to broker Mono, but Russia wont
sell it! they will have to pay for this.
(i) Indians are building the oracle.
DAMN! when i did the MM in sala, i didnt notice that the $$ went
down 1gp, and we rioted. Someone left a mine unroaded here
5 850 BC
sala worker moves to desert mountain pass
NF worker moves to desert mountain pass
SR worker moves to plains se of city
scout sits
galley moves along coast- the egyptions have claimed 2 of the
elephants and have another city to the north of them
there is one spot i see we could possibly hold out on
(i) Russian settler moves adjacent to Catta - heading north for the
open spot north of GR most likely! I need to move a unit
out of Catta to force them back
6 825 BC
scout sits.
NF worker-1 roads.
NF worker-2 irrigates. (normally i would have them do the same thing)
SR worker roads.
galley checks out stevaspool.
diplo - russia still doesnt trade.
(i) India demands Terr map and 32 gold!! Grrr! they are polite though.
i might be able to refuse them.... hmm. i guess i will give in.
7 800BC
damn! moved warrior out of catta to force russia back, but catta
is the city that needs 50% lux. ill have to make a
specialist.
MC worker completes road-net - starts mining the grass
A worker completes mine, starts roading it.
scout sits
Catta worker (subject to capture) starts roading cow-mine
diplo - damn you russia!
(i) sink barb trireme, russian move east- will warrior dance with them?
8 775BC
NF completes worker- goes to barracks for lack of something better
at the moment.
OS completes spearman, stays spearman
SR completes temple, begins barracks
Chinese are building the GL! grrr.
we can build lighthouse, wall, oracle, pyramids
galley drops off settler- only to find another city there! this
means i will not be able to settle on an elephant
without sever cultural pressure (might be anyway).
sala completes mine, but i cant use it because -1gp will riot.
lux to 20%, gpt -3, sala works mine, the extra shield is first
corruption shield!!! grr. lux back to 10% then.
sala worker: road.
NF worker - damn it, losing movement point to cross river.
GR worker finishes mine!, moves W to start another and finish
the grassland mines there.
warrior in OS moves to where scout is. spearman there fortifies.
scout sits.
Catta warrior moves north to set up worker-warrior-worker-Alleghany
barrier (gap between allegheny and worker)
diplo -
india had shopped Lit to all but russia, who hadn't shopped
their Mono.
india - Lit for 50gp + WM
russia - still wont trade! even with Lit.
(i) Chinese settler moves toward last possible elephant spot!!
9 750BC
settler moves W, Chinese beat us by 1 turn!! maybe they wont set up
camp (fat chance)
NF worker-1 finishes road, moves through mountain pass.
NF worker-3 joins him!
SR worker moves adjacent to -1 and -3 to connect roads
GR worker mines.
A warrior (from catta) moves E to block russians.
scout moves S!!! (warrior will take up his position next turn).
galley hangs arround in case settler wants to get back on
diplo -
Russia wants to sell TheRepublic for our whole treasury.
all the other AI - have TheRepublic grrr.
still wont budge on Monotheism- maybe we have to finish
the ancient tech tree before they will trade.
set science to 10% (50% is next level any benefit is seen)
lux to 20% (sala grew)
(i) Chinese settler was moving out to the land bridge (iron there)
we can settle the elephants!
10 730BC
IRON is brought into our cities! The people wonder if this
resource will be a double-edged sword that will
cause prosperity at the cost of great strife.
A completes spearman- this is great as we can now block the russians
completely, but A will also need a garrison unit
in 3 turns.
Tonawanda completes harbor! move citizen out to ocean from forest,
and begins temple.
OS is due for a spearman in 3, but i review other options <shrug>
change OS to Swordsman!
Hmm Pyramids or GL? Russia is only 2 techs away from education,
we could get the screw on the GL, but the pyramids never
expire! plus i already stopped all of our Granary
productions
settler moves to desired city location.
OS worker moves east to mine roaded grass - tile wont be used for
17 turns, but the worker can move on to another city when
finished.
A warrior moves west , A spear(new) moves SW - block russians
A worker-2 moves NE to finally connect Catta - this leaves a spot
for the Russians, but it can be blocked next turn with
the warrior.
scout moves south. Russians have not connected minsk yet - and
they didnt road the tile we need to connect to them either
NF worker-1 irrigate, NF worker-3 irrigate - this will give
faster access to SR worker to start his irr
NF worker-2 goes through the mountain pass
galley heads north
diplo - well , india wants 260gp + WM for "The republic". I will
let this choice up to the next player since the trade
can still be made this turn. Russia still will not budge
on the Monotheism.
(end of turn)
Thoughts about next turn:
Well, the elephant gambit looks a little weak right now The
settler is there ready to build. I didnt expect that the
Egyptians would found 3 cities in 10 turns there! We can control
4 elephants from the start, but will have to remain culturally
powerful there. If we go to monarch or repub soon, we can
buy temple, harbor, library, etc.
The scout can get into Russia and pillage their iron if necessary.
We need to tech them that horses are for Iroquois hands only.
(China has 1, Egypt has 3 each - we could possibly trade with
Egypt for horses). Tblisi is guarded by a lone regular
warrior, but they will have a spear there soon.
Becareful of Sala riots - the 1gpt loss will not cause a riot now,
but a 2gpt loss will.
The luxury rate is all for Sala - nothing else benefits- its
8gpt, but it should be worth it when the Pyramids come up.
at the end of the next 10 turn, temples in OS, Allegheny,
Salamanca, and GR will start to double their culture points.
temple in NF already is doubled.
when the workers are done in the mountain pass irrigating and
roading, Sala can use that square and cut the production of the
pyramids by 2 turns! then the vacated irrigated desert square
could be used for NF again.
City placement - i probably should have moved the settler in the
north backwards and founded on the lower incense hill, then another
coastal city could be establish on the peninsula. i was just
finishing out anothers thought i believe- unless that settler
was headed to the peninsula itself. <shrug>
730 is a weird turn to end on-- perhaps i played 1 too many? crap
i did: 4 900BC and 4 875BC
apologize to all!
save game:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-iroquois-730bc.zip
I have been doing all that is possible to push Sala in growth and shields -- at the cost of NF's reduction in both.
Sala is size 9 and growth in 4 turns, and has its first waste behind it already. this means additional shields will not waste for a while. Pyramids due in 22 turns, but can cut that to 20 after irrigation and roads are finished in the mountain pass north of sala.
Here is my turn:
Preturn:
Survey the land.
Sala is going to riot. I make a scientist there as
i can't take no progress at all in tech.
Goals:
This is a tough one.
1) make the elephant gambit. We are in no way ready for war and
we have a possible opportunity to grab some resources
which will help us for ages to come.
2) Get the pyramids! with them, we can abandon granary plans for
other uses.
3) irrigate to SR
4) connect the iron and start making an army to be feared.
Sala is producing well! too bad it is going to riot. i wonder how
we keep it happy AND producing at this point?
Change OS to settler from granary (pyramids).
Change NF to galley (will complete next turn).
(i) nothing
1 975BC
NF completes galley, switches to worker
OS completes settler, switches to spearman
OS worker - west up Iron Mountain
scout stays put, even though he wants to go exploring.
change Catta to Barracks (from granary).
GR switched to harbor (from granary).
A to barracks.
Catta worker - N to cattle (mine and road)
notice russian worker roading 2 squares S of catta- possible
incense trading opportunity.
Centralia founded! temple begun to get whale.
diplo-
argh! in my game we werent behind in tech and i let this
influence my thinking - should have checked diplo
sooner. we do have a ton of gold though!
oh my. egypt will charge us 290gp +WM for philo and construct
russia 300gp + WM
india - only has philo hmm only 1 GP in treasury.
china - 280gp for both.
ok, this makes it easy. buy philo from india.
const from china, sell const back to india to get our
philo gold back. Construction is important,
so i dont mind paying for it.
india: Philo + WM for WM + 60gp
china: Const for WM + 230gp
india: 61gp for Const
russia: WM for WM + 1gp (the extra one i got from india
)landbridge still isnt completely revealed.
egypt: WM for WM -- landbridge revealed - IT ISNT ONE!
We are alone with these 4 civs on this continent.
(i) Sink Barb trireme 1hp loss
Indians are building the pyramids. this calls for lux increase so
sala can keep up.
2 950BC
lux rate to 10%, sala changed back to forest.
switch NF off of hill mine and onto plains mine.
sala will take the hill mine - this allows both cities to
still grow in 2 turns, but shaves 4 turns off of pyramids
OS worker - road the iron!
Settler boards the Santa Maria in search of elephants!
scout sits
Catta worker - mines cow
(i) China wants WM for WM, i agree
2! russian settlers south of Catta - not sure where they are going.
3 925BC
scout sits.
Catta worker moves south into jungle to road! this may seem like weed
but i think a trade route to russia (and possibly china soon)
seems worth it.
GR worker finsihes mine -hmmm. i want to irr to SR, but tis a long journey.
decide to make it. 4 turns to desert mountain pass.
SR worker roads on mine
galley progresses down the coast.
(i) russian settlers move west
sala and niagra grow!
4 900BC
MC worker. N to road
galley moves
scout sits
Catta jungle worker roads.
diplo - everyone has currency and india is rich? maybe they
discovered it, bought it from china for WM+140gp
stop workers goto - he is going to mine and road hill se of sala
worker in NF will start the "SR project"
(i) Russia kicks out the galley
Russia has Monotheism, but won't trade.
4 875BC
NF completes worker, some MM to get NF to grow before next completes
Sala moves off of irrigated plain to river grassland to allow this.
pyramid build time unaffected - growth slowed to 6 turns
hmm NF worker loses a movement point crossing river
i have construction??
scout sits. spots ANOTHER russian settler heading west (3 so far)
galley investigates St. Petersburg.
MC worker roads
argh- other worker also loses movement point.
diplo -
we are in a great position to broker Mono, but Russia wont
sell it! they will have to pay for this.
(i) Indians are building the oracle.
DAMN! when i did the MM in sala, i didnt notice that the $$ went
down 1gp, and we rioted. Someone left a mine unroaded here
5 850 BC
sala worker moves to desert mountain pass
NF worker moves to desert mountain pass
SR worker moves to plains se of city
scout sits
galley moves along coast- the egyptions have claimed 2 of the
elephants and have another city to the north of them
there is one spot i see we could possibly hold out on
(i) Russian settler moves adjacent to Catta - heading north for the
open spot north of GR most likely! I need to move a unit
out of Catta to force them back
6 825 BC
scout sits.
NF worker-1 roads.
NF worker-2 irrigates. (normally i would have them do the same thing)
SR worker roads.
galley checks out stevaspool.
diplo - russia still doesnt trade.
(i) India demands Terr map and 32 gold!! Grrr! they are polite though.
i might be able to refuse them.... hmm. i guess i will give in.
7 800BC
damn! moved warrior out of catta to force russia back, but catta
is the city that needs 50% lux. ill have to make a
specialist.
MC worker completes road-net - starts mining the grass
A worker completes mine, starts roading it.
scout sits
Catta worker (subject to capture) starts roading cow-mine
diplo - damn you russia!
(i) sink barb trireme, russian move east- will warrior dance with them?
8 775BC
NF completes worker- goes to barracks for lack of something better
at the moment.
OS completes spearman, stays spearman
SR completes temple, begins barracks
Chinese are building the GL! grrr.
we can build lighthouse, wall, oracle, pyramids
galley drops off settler- only to find another city there! this
means i will not be able to settle on an elephant
without sever cultural pressure (might be anyway).
sala completes mine, but i cant use it because -1gp will riot.
lux to 20%, gpt -3, sala works mine, the extra shield is first
corruption shield!!! grr. lux back to 10% then.
sala worker: road.
NF worker - damn it, losing movement point to cross river.
GR worker finishes mine!, moves W to start another and finish
the grassland mines there.
warrior in OS moves to where scout is. spearman there fortifies.
scout sits.
Catta warrior moves north to set up worker-warrior-worker-Alleghany
barrier (gap between allegheny and worker)
diplo -
india had shopped Lit to all but russia, who hadn't shopped
their Mono.
india - Lit for 50gp + WM
russia - still wont trade! even with Lit.
(i) Chinese settler moves toward last possible elephant spot!!
9 750BC
settler moves W, Chinese beat us by 1 turn!! maybe they wont set up
camp (fat chance)
NF worker-1 finishes road, moves through mountain pass.
NF worker-3 joins him!
SR worker moves adjacent to -1 and -3 to connect roads
GR worker mines.
A warrior (from catta) moves E to block russians.
scout moves S!!! (warrior will take up his position next turn).
galley hangs arround in case settler wants to get back on
diplo -
Russia wants to sell TheRepublic for our whole treasury.
all the other AI - have TheRepublic grrr.
still wont budge on Monotheism- maybe we have to finish
the ancient tech tree before they will trade.
set science to 10% (50% is next level any benefit is seen)
lux to 20% (sala grew)
(i) Chinese settler was moving out to the land bridge (iron there)
we can settle the elephants!
10 730BC
IRON is brought into our cities! The people wonder if this
resource will be a double-edged sword that will
cause prosperity at the cost of great strife.
A completes spearman- this is great as we can now block the russians
completely, but A will also need a garrison unit
in 3 turns.
Tonawanda completes harbor! move citizen out to ocean from forest,
and begins temple.
OS is due for a spearman in 3, but i review other options <shrug>
change OS to Swordsman!
Hmm Pyramids or GL? Russia is only 2 techs away from education,
we could get the screw on the GL, but the pyramids never
expire! plus i already stopped all of our Granary
productions
settler moves to desired city location.
OS worker moves east to mine roaded grass - tile wont be used for
17 turns, but the worker can move on to another city when
finished.
A warrior moves west , A spear(new) moves SW - block russians
A worker-2 moves NE to finally connect Catta - this leaves a spot
for the Russians, but it can be blocked next turn with
the warrior.
scout moves south. Russians have not connected minsk yet - and
they didnt road the tile we need to connect to them either
NF worker-1 irrigate, NF worker-3 irrigate - this will give
faster access to SR worker to start his irr
NF worker-2 goes through the mountain pass
galley heads north
diplo - well , india wants 260gp + WM for "The republic". I will
let this choice up to the next player since the trade
can still be made this turn. Russia still will not budge
on the Monotheism.
(end of turn)
Thoughts about next turn:
Well, the elephant gambit looks a little weak right now
Thesettler is there ready to build. I didnt expect that the
Egyptians would found 3 cities in 10 turns there! We can control
4 elephants from the start, but will have to remain culturally
powerful there. If we go to monarch or repub soon, we can
buy temple, harbor, library, etc.
The scout can get into Russia and pillage their iron if necessary.
We need to tech them that horses are for Iroquois hands only.
(China has 1, Egypt has 3 each - we could possibly trade with
Egypt for horses). Tblisi is guarded by a lone regular
warrior, but they will have a spear there soon.
Becareful of Sala riots - the 1gpt loss will not cause a riot now,
but a 2gpt loss will.
The luxury rate is all for Sala - nothing else benefits- its
8gpt, but it should be worth it when the Pyramids come up.
at the end of the next 10 turn, temples in OS, Allegheny,
Salamanca, and GR will start to double their culture points.
temple in NF already is doubled.
when the workers are done in the mountain pass irrigating and
roading, Sala can use that square and cut the production of the
pyramids by 2 turns! then the vacated irrigated desert square
could be used for NF again.
City placement - i probably should have moved the settler in the
north backwards and founded on the lower incense hill, then another
coastal city could be establish on the peninsula. i was just
finishing out anothers thought i believe- unless that settler
was headed to the peninsula itself. <shrug>
730 is a weird turn to end on-- perhaps i played 1 too many? crap
i did: 4 900BC and 4 875BC
apologize to all!
save game:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-iroquois-730bc.zip
Sala rioting? Probably should riase the lux tax instead of making a specialist. It might be close, but a 10% raise in lux tax will often only affect the largest city, which is Salamanca.
The really unfortunate thing is that Sala was NOT going to riot -- at least, not in anybody else's game. As long as the number of happy citizens is greater or equal to the number of unhappy, there's no riot. That's just a big waste.
No progress in tech is better than fake progress, where you feel like you're doing something but are really just wasting one person's output effort. 40-turn gambits sometimes work early and sometimes work very late when everybody else is deep in war in communism. In-between, they pretty much never work.
The Pyramids? HA! We have ZERO chance at the Pyramids. I mean, zero. Moscow started before us, is at least as large as Sala, has more mines than Sala, requires less shields (by 120), started earlier, and will almost assuredly win the race. Both Delhi and Thebes are still on the Pyramids (easily verified by checking F7) and would beat Salamanca. It's just NOT going to happen. And that's not even counting other civs that are off-continent that might be building it.
As for the cascade, all the wonders being produced means we have minimal chance of successfully grabbing any wonders even in the cascade. I'll address suggestions on this point at the end. As for your claims that everybody cascaded to the Great Library, precisely ONE city (Beijing) is building the Library. That's a very minimal cascade, to say the least.
NF to galley? NO NO NO! If you feel a galley is necessary (and I like a gambit as much as the next guy), you should make it in T or MC, not NF, which can and should be in granary/settler/worker mode until those needs are filled. When you have a city of NF's strengths, you need to take advantage of it and not waste it.
On the iron for a military build-up, which do we have more of, shields or gold? Much of our gold is going unused in our coffers. Imagine building 10 warriors and upgrading them to swords for 400 gold. Pretty fast. OTOH, building 10 swords takes 300 shields, which is a lot slower. Military is good -- just do it intelligently.
Catt is growing slower than it should be -- your entire turn. I recommended moving the Catt citizen from grass to cows and you didn't do it. This cost pretty much an entire citizen over your turns. That's reasonably painful.
On to the actual turns....
(975) I guess I can understand the logic behind switching out of granaries, but that's really going to hurt us long-term, since we're NOT going to get the Pyramids -- unless/until we capture them. Granted, the AI sucks at optimizing production, but 600 shields vs. 480 shields with a headstart in a large city (Moscow size 7 at least) means we lose BIG.
If/when you gambit (and trying to build the Pyramids is a gambit, just one that's going to fail), you have to make sure that a failed gambit doesn't cost too much. An ideal gambit is low-risk, high-reward. Medium-risk, high-reward or low-risk, medium-reward are acceptable. You've added to the risk in this gambit by taking cities off of granaries, while not helping the potential reward that greatly. Not a wise trade-off.
The fact that Moscow had been building the Pyramids for turns and turns didn't convince you that lux tax was better on turn 0? And, BTW, Sala was NOT going to riot. Wasteful.
(925) It is weed. Roading a jungle almost always is. Cut the jungle down first and then road. At least that way, the square is semi-useful. As it is, you're just wasting worker turns. And how much is getting on the trade network a few turns earlier worth? Not much. This definitely should've waited -- or at least been done in the other order.
GR worker should stay close to there and find tasks on his way. There are other workers (*cough* Mauch Chunk) in the area who can get there first and not waste so many turns. Just because a worker wasn't available THIS turn there doesn't mean one won't be soon. Wasting worker turns like this is a killer. You did stop this later, at least.
(900) This worker (MC) should have been irrigating to St. R. He was close and St. R is a MUCH higher priority than MC, being closer to the capital and having much more to gain from the actions than MC.
When you get a tech that comes with a building (e.g. Currency), you should evaluate all your city builds and see if they should change. When I got Currency, I put a NUMBER of cities on marketplaces, simply because they are so beneficial. You at least need to consider that option. This is especially critical with the discovery of Industrialization.
(875) Engineering, not Construction, is the tech that lets you "build bridges" and cross rivers with 1/3 movement point. Minor point, but knowing the value of each tech can often be a huge benefit.
If one worker can't cross the river, the other certainly can't. Did you think it was going to somehow change? This is a computer program, after all.
(875i) I know that feeling well. Too bad.
(825) Why is the scout sitting when there are units to block? You comment on that in your 850 report and then you don't mobilize our best blocker to do the job. That's very careless. What other purpose could the scout be serving now? None, so he might as well do something.
If normally you would have them do the same thing, why not this time, too? Both should irrigate first, then road, just in case the worker from StR gets down in time to start the irrigation NW before both jobs are finished on the desert side.
Caving is definitely the right choice here.
(800) Again, the cascade of bad decisions. Moving out of Catt instead of the scout worsened Catt. And, even now, when you're making a specialist, you aren't working the cow for the extra food. AARGGGHHH!!!
(775) Lack of something better? How about another worker? Or another settler? Or the granary you cancelled? All are better options. We still don't have enough worker force. There are still two spots in our area that should be settled (NW of the second iron source and NE of GR). Yet, somehow a barracks is the only thing you can come up with?
Nice realization in Sala, though, with corruption/waste/happiness issues. That's more a matter of checking and seeing than necessarily knowing. Wise final decision.
(750) If the gambit was in trouble (and it was), you had a few "good" options. 1. Settle where you were, get the lux and hope/pray for an early cultural pressure ourselves (we are religious after all). 2. Get back on the galley and go further SE to unsettled lands and try to get that iron down there. 3. Settler on galley for return north and gambit a failure.
I, personally, like option 2, but option 1 was also good. A move to another spot with similar cultural pressure and less chance to reinforce by sea is not a good option.
Save-game notes:
- Catt citizen should still be moved to the cows to get the extra food. Is this so hard?
- Why does MC get such high treatment? T is closer, less corrupt and has better options to improve sooner. Yet, MC is getting a full-time worker and T has none. MC is not that important. NF, too, needs more squares developed.
- NF on barracks? NO! Change.
- Why isn't A on max food growth?
- Republic is probably worth it. And immediate revolution.
- St. R still has two MP for one unhappy citizen -- and will get luxuries soon to make them even more unnecessary. One should be moved to OS ASAP.
- NF needs a full-time worker to road and irrigate the other flood plains near it. Those produce three food even in despotism and NF needs all the help it can get right now.
Ending notes:
- Yeah, the elephant gamble is looking dicey. Not a bad try, though. And we might have the cultural cajones to pull it off. I wish you'd've settled right away off the coast, though.
- Scouts can't pillage. Explorers can. Scouts can't. All they can do is block a civ from roading a square if they sit there.
- The Pyramids won't come up in Sala to justify all the expenses there. Change it to a marketplace, losing 23 shields now (which is better than 500 later, when we're out of wonders to build and they've all been cascaded away. Can't even put Sala on palace placeholder, because it's the capital). Too risky. CHANGE SALAMANCA!!!
- Next player gets 9 turns.
Pretty weedy overall.
Arathorn
The really unfortunate thing is that Sala was NOT going to riot -- at least, not in anybody else's game. As long as the number of happy citizens is greater or equal to the number of unhappy, there's no riot. That's just a big waste.
No progress in tech is better than fake progress, where you feel like you're doing something but are really just wasting one person's output effort. 40-turn gambits sometimes work early and sometimes work very late when everybody else is deep in war in communism. In-between, they pretty much never work.
The Pyramids? HA! We have ZERO chance at the Pyramids. I mean, zero. Moscow started before us, is at least as large as Sala, has more mines than Sala, requires less shields (by 120), started earlier, and will almost assuredly win the race. Both Delhi and Thebes are still on the Pyramids (easily verified by checking F7) and would beat Salamanca. It's just NOT going to happen. And that's not even counting other civs that are off-continent that might be building it.
As for the cascade, all the wonders being produced means we have minimal chance of successfully grabbing any wonders even in the cascade. I'll address suggestions on this point at the end. As for your claims that everybody cascaded to the Great Library, precisely ONE city (Beijing) is building the Library. That's a very minimal cascade, to say the least.
NF to galley? NO NO NO! If you feel a galley is necessary (and I like a gambit as much as the next guy), you should make it in T or MC, not NF, which can and should be in granary/settler/worker mode until those needs are filled. When you have a city of NF's strengths, you need to take advantage of it and not waste it.
On the iron for a military build-up, which do we have more of, shields or gold? Much of our gold is going unused in our coffers. Imagine building 10 warriors and upgrading them to swords for 400 gold. Pretty fast. OTOH, building 10 swords takes 300 shields, which is a lot slower. Military is good -- just do it intelligently.
Catt is growing slower than it should be -- your entire turn. I recommended moving the Catt citizen from grass to cows and you didn't do it. This cost pretty much an entire citizen over your turns. That's reasonably painful.
On to the actual turns....
(975) I guess I can understand the logic behind switching out of granaries, but that's really going to hurt us long-term, since we're NOT going to get the Pyramids -- unless/until we capture them. Granted, the AI sucks at optimizing production, but 600 shields vs. 480 shields with a headstart in a large city (Moscow size 7 at least) means we lose BIG.
If/when you gambit (and trying to build the Pyramids is a gambit, just one that's going to fail), you have to make sure that a failed gambit doesn't cost too much. An ideal gambit is low-risk, high-reward. Medium-risk, high-reward or low-risk, medium-reward are acceptable. You've added to the risk in this gambit by taking cities off of granaries, while not helping the potential reward that greatly. Not a wise trade-off.
The fact that Moscow had been building the Pyramids for turns and turns didn't convince you that lux tax was better on turn 0? And, BTW, Sala was NOT going to riot. Wasteful.
(925) It is weed. Roading a jungle almost always is. Cut the jungle down first and then road. At least that way, the square is semi-useful. As it is, you're just wasting worker turns. And how much is getting on the trade network a few turns earlier worth? Not much. This definitely should've waited -- or at least been done in the other order.
GR worker should stay close to there and find tasks on his way. There are other workers (*cough* Mauch Chunk) in the area who can get there first and not waste so many turns. Just because a worker wasn't available THIS turn there doesn't mean one won't be soon. Wasting worker turns like this is a killer. You did stop this later, at least.
(900) This worker (MC) should have been irrigating to St. R. He was close and St. R is a MUCH higher priority than MC, being closer to the capital and having much more to gain from the actions than MC.
When you get a tech that comes with a building (e.g. Currency), you should evaluate all your city builds and see if they should change. When I got Currency, I put a NUMBER of cities on marketplaces, simply because they are so beneficial. You at least need to consider that option. This is especially critical with the discovery of Industrialization.
(875) Engineering, not Construction, is the tech that lets you "build bridges" and cross rivers with 1/3 movement point. Minor point, but knowing the value of each tech can often be a huge benefit.
If one worker can't cross the river, the other certainly can't. Did you think it was going to somehow change? This is a computer program, after all.
(875i) I know that feeling well. Too bad.
(825) Why is the scout sitting when there are units to block? You comment on that in your 850 report and then you don't mobilize our best blocker to do the job. That's very careless. What other purpose could the scout be serving now? None, so he might as well do something.
If normally you would have them do the same thing, why not this time, too? Both should irrigate first, then road, just in case the worker from StR gets down in time to start the irrigation NW before both jobs are finished on the desert side.
Caving is definitely the right choice here.
(800) Again, the cascade of bad decisions. Moving out of Catt instead of the scout worsened Catt. And, even now, when you're making a specialist, you aren't working the cow for the extra food. AARGGGHHH!!!
(775) Lack of something better? How about another worker? Or another settler? Or the granary you cancelled? All are better options. We still don't have enough worker force. There are still two spots in our area that should be settled (NW of the second iron source and NE of GR). Yet, somehow a barracks is the only thing you can come up with?
Nice realization in Sala, though, with corruption/waste/happiness issues. That's more a matter of checking and seeing than necessarily knowing. Wise final decision.
(750) If the gambit was in trouble (and it was), you had a few "good" options. 1. Settle where you were, get the lux and hope/pray for an early cultural pressure ourselves (we are religious after all). 2. Get back on the galley and go further SE to unsettled lands and try to get that iron down there. 3. Settler on galley for return north and gambit a failure.
I, personally, like option 2, but option 1 was also good. A move to another spot with similar cultural pressure and less chance to reinforce by sea is not a good option.
Save-game notes:
- Catt citizen should still be moved to the cows to get the extra food. Is this so hard?
- Why does MC get such high treatment? T is closer, less corrupt and has better options to improve sooner. Yet, MC is getting a full-time worker and T has none. MC is not that important. NF, too, needs more squares developed.
- NF on barracks? NO! Change.
- Why isn't A on max food growth?
- Republic is probably worth it. And immediate revolution.
- St. R still has two MP for one unhappy citizen -- and will get luxuries soon to make them even more unnecessary. One should be moved to OS ASAP.
- NF needs a full-time worker to road and irrigate the other flood plains near it. Those produce three food even in despotism and NF needs all the help it can get right now.
Ending notes:
- Yeah, the elephant gamble is looking dicey. Not a bad try, though. And we might have the cultural cajones to pull it off. I wish you'd've settled right away off the coast, though.
- Scouts can't pillage. Explorers can. Scouts can't. All they can do is block a civ from roading a square if they sit there.
- The Pyramids won't come up in Sala to justify all the expenses there. Change it to a marketplace, losing 23 shields now (which is better than 500 later, when we're out of wonders to build and they've all been cascaded away. Can't even put Sala on palace placeholder, because it's the capital). Too risky. CHANGE SALAMANCA!!!
- Next player gets 9 turns.
Pretty weedy overall.
Arathorn
Thanks A!
Unfortunately, my Civ3 drive crashed hard last night and now i have no computer to play on. I will be putting another drive in it soon, so hopefully can get the next shadow turn.
Im knew i was getting some major weedage this turn -- i mean, i was trying too many gambits at once i think (pyramids and elephant, and removing the granaries).
I need to look back -- i had no idea about F7 showing what wonders were being built.
Sala was NOT going to riot? too much crack pipe that morning, i guess
I really missed the cow in catta.
The barracks in NF was a "hey its up to the next player what to build" had this not been a succession game, i may have even still put it on barracks while i made up my mind.
upgradeing warriors to SWORDS after connecting the Iron!!! i didnt think of this strategy and i guess i should have -- i have read about doing this with charriots to knights. We would have to agree with this strategy before hand though since it would take a few turns to get a warrior horde going.
Unfortunately, my Civ3 drive crashed hard last night and now i have no computer to play on. I will be putting another drive in it soon, so hopefully can get the next shadow turn.
Im knew i was getting some major weedage this turn -- i mean, i was trying too many gambits at once i think (pyramids and elephant, and removing the granaries).
I need to look back -- i had no idea about F7 showing what wonders were being built.
Sala was NOT going to riot? too much crack pipe that morning, i guess
I really missed the cow in catta.
The barracks in NF was a "hey its up to the next player what to build" had this not been a succession game, i may have even still put it on barracks while i made up my mind.
upgradeing warriors to SWORDS after connecting the Iron!!! i didnt think of this strategy and i guess i should have -- i have read about doing this with charriots to knights. We would have to agree with this strategy before hand though since it would take a few turns to get a warrior horde going.
Upgrading warriors to SWORDS, not spears, once iron is connected, was the idea.
And upgrade paths are a HUGE benefit to the human player. See Zed-F's training day game for an example of building horsemen by the truckload and then upgrading to riders. Upgrading, even without Leo's, is cheaper than rushing the extra necessary shields. Keep this in mind.
One other recommendation, when making a "should be changed" build (tm), make it pretty clear that it such, so that the next player can review that decision more closely than the others.
Arathorn
And upgrade paths are a HUGE benefit to the human player. See Zed-F's training day game for an example of building horsemen by the truckload and then upgrading to riders. Upgrading, even without Leo's, is cheaper than rushing the extra necessary shields. Keep this in mind.
One other recommendation, when making a "should be changed" build (tm), make it pretty clear that it such, so that the next player can review that decision more closely than the others.
Arathorn
Arizona_Steve, what's your status? I'm out of town, away from service, pretty much all weekend (no playing). You can squeeze an official turn in here, if you have the time/inclination.
Aiming for an early next week review cycle, but we'll see.
Arathorn
Aiming for an early next week review cycle, but we'll see.
Arathorn
Arizona_Steve
King
I see no problem with this. Should be able to get written approval from my G/F for ten turns this weekend
Will probably play Saturday evening (hiking Colorado's fourteeners during the day) or Sunday morning.
Will probably play Saturday evening (hiking Colorado's fourteeners during the day) or Sunday morning.
Arizona_Steve
King
I only played 9 turns here as Jbob played 11. Less opportunity for me to screw up 
Inherited turn:
Reading Arathorn's critique of Jbob's last turn, I order construction of the Pyramids in Salamanca to stop. We could build a colloseum at the waste of 3 shields, or a marketplace at a waste of 23 shields. The colloseum is of limited use as a "happy" building whereas the marketplace will bring in additional income, and provide the happiness factor once we have three or more luxuries. Marketplace it is, due this turn.
Niagra Falls is building a barracks. I veto this and switch it to settler. We must make maximum use of this extremely high-food location. Due in 8 turns.
Grand River is building a harbor. Probably a good decision, as it's growth will slow once it reaches 5, as the 5th citizen will have to work a 1 food tile. A harbor will allow this city to keep growing into a high-commerce city.
Allegheny has once citizen working the gold hill. Great for commerce, but it leaves us with only one excess food. I switch that citizen to the shielded grassland to gain two food for one turn, switch back to the gold hill after that. This allows us to grow in two turns instead of three at the loss of 5 gold.
Cattaraugus and it's unhappy problems. We need to connect this to the trade network. I change the scientist to a tax collector, and move one citizen from a mined grassland to a mined cow. I leave the barracks there though, as this'll be a good place to heal troops when the inevitable AI declaration of war comes.
Oil Springs. Ugh! Our trump card here is our cashflow, and using this to upgrade warriors seems more sound to me than building swordsmen directly. Better to disconnect the iron there and keep pumping out warriors. The worker there can pillage the iron once he completes mining there. I also switch from swordsman to granary - the city is next to a river and growth will be boosted.
Tonawanda is left as is - Temple under construction.
Maunch Chunk is left as is - Temple under construction.
St Regis is building barracks. I'm not overly convinced about this, but there is nothing else it can build which seems preferable under the circumstances. Better to do this, then crank out troops.
Centralia is (slowly) building a temple. I leave it as is.
Other notes: 20% luxuries is optimal - Salamanca at population 9 needs this.
Russia and China are both in Anarchy, India and Egypt are in Republic.
Our military is weak vs Egypt, average vs everyone else.
Ghandi will sell us Republic (and a vegetable curry) for World Map and 230 gold. I accept, as Republic will allow us to increase cash flow dramatically. I think about revolting for a while, but decide not to, as we only have two luxuries online right now.
After all that, I press the SPACE bar.
Salamanca builds marketplace, starts colloseum. It's going to grow to 10, so we need to get a "happy" building in there. It can also be changed to Cathedral once we get hold of Monotheism.
Egypt starts the Great Library.
(1) 710BC
We have no ROP with Russia, but the scout is inside their borders. I pull him out.
Hmm. We have a settler among the elephants. Two problems with this. We have no easy way to transport the ivory back to the homeland, and we'll probably be swamped by Egypt's culture. I plop down Stevetown where the settler stands, with the intention of building a warrior, temple and a harbor in that order.
Our galley is killed off by barbarians.
Cataraugus goes into disorder. Ugh! I zoom to the city and find... three CONTENT citizens and a taxman??? What gives here? Clearly Civ is on here.
St Regis culture expands.
Russia and India begin building the Great Library.
(2) 690BC
A second warrior reaches Cattaraugus. This should quell the riots there, although I can't understand why they occurred in the first place.
Not sure why we should be building roads in the jungle, when there are more important tiles to improve. I send the worker at Cattaraugus to the grassland North of the city, where he can mine and road.
A worker is sent to irrigate a tile in the Niagra Falls floodplains.
Order restored in Cattaraugus.
Maunch Chunk completes it's temple and starts a harbor. It won't grow beyond 3 (I think) as things stand right now.
Pyramids are completed by the Persians in Persepolis.
St Regis is connected to the trade network.
(3) 670BC
Move workers around. Roading towards Centrallia, Improving and roading between Allegheny and Cattaraugus and irrigating towards St Regis.
Allegheny builds spearman, starts marketplace.
Egypt, Russia and India start the Great Library (cascade from pyramids).
(4) 650BC
Allegheny spearman fortifies.
More movement of workers (MMOW).
Check happiness at Tonowanda and Maunch Chunk - both grew last turn.
Egypt and Russia now have Monotheism - Russia and India are both down to cautious. I wonder why.
(5) 630BC
MMOW
Scout moves towards Russian warrior/settler pair hiking through our lands.
Niagra Falls grew last turn - passes happiness check.
Culture must've expanded somewhere. Aaaah, Allegheny
Russian warrior/settler pair turn round and head back home.
Cattaraugus builds barracks, starts worker.
(6) 610BC
Worker at Oil Spring completes his mine and pillages iron. Oops. Can't pillage iron, moves to unimproved grassland to mine next turn.
Salamanca now at population 10 - Luxuries to 30% to stave off disorder.
Cattaraugus is connected to our trade network. The taxman there is put to work in the forest. An extra shield is generated (1 lost to corruption), and we're still running an excess of 3 food.
Russia and Egypt still want way too much for Monotheism.
I send the empire into revolt. It's borderline as to whether we'll make more cash in Republic, but I want the cash rush ability. We're making 24 gold per turn right now.
(7) 590BC
The republic of Iroquois is formed.
I begin adjusting everything. Luxuries to 20% allows all entertainers (from anarchy) to be fired. Making 36 gold per turn. Should've revolted as soon as I purchased Republic. Put it down to
Warrior rushed at Stevetown.
Three deep stack of workers completes irrigating at St Regis. I can't see any easy way of unstacking them, so I leave them stacked for the next irrigation project.
Scout harrasses Russian warrior/settler pair, who have turned back yet again.
Niagra Falls builds settler, starts granary.
Centrallia goes into disorder. Must've missed it somewhere.
Stevetown builds warrior, starts temple to be rushed next turn.
(8) 570BC
The big mystery - where is the Russian warrior/settler pair headed. I don't think they know either.
Cattaraugus builds worker, starts courthouse. Some corruption containment is required.
St Regis builds barracks, starts marketplace.
Centrallia still in disorder - totally forgot to adjust.
(9) 550BC
Taxman hired in Centrallia. Would require 50% luxuries otherwise.
Temple rushed in Stevetown. Please build a harbor here next to get the ivory into the rest of our empire
MMOW
Notes
Set Stevetown to harbor once the temple completes. This may be a worthwhile rush as it'll get another luxury online. Since we'll have three luxuries, marketplaces add two happy faces.
Settler between New River and St Regis is on his way to secure the hill NW of the iron tile.
Way too much here WRT civil disorder.
Allegheny should be building an aquaduct. Feel free to change.
Official turn - Iroquois - 550BC
Inherited turn:
Reading Arathorn's critique of Jbob's last turn, I order construction of the Pyramids in Salamanca to stop. We could build a colloseum at the waste of 3 shields, or a marketplace at a waste of 23 shields. The colloseum is of limited use as a "happy" building whereas the marketplace will bring in additional income, and provide the happiness factor once we have three or more luxuries. Marketplace it is, due this turn.
Niagra Falls is building a barracks. I veto this and switch it to settler. We must make maximum use of this extremely high-food location. Due in 8 turns.
Grand River is building a harbor. Probably a good decision, as it's growth will slow once it reaches 5, as the 5th citizen will have to work a 1 food tile. A harbor will allow this city to keep growing into a high-commerce city.
Allegheny has once citizen working the gold hill. Great for commerce, but it leaves us with only one excess food. I switch that citizen to the shielded grassland to gain two food for one turn, switch back to the gold hill after that. This allows us to grow in two turns instead of three at the loss of 5 gold.
Cattaraugus and it's unhappy problems. We need to connect this to the trade network. I change the scientist to a tax collector, and move one citizen from a mined grassland to a mined cow. I leave the barracks there though, as this'll be a good place to heal troops when the inevitable AI declaration of war comes.
Oil Springs. Ugh! Our trump card here is our cashflow, and using this to upgrade warriors seems more sound to me than building swordsmen directly. Better to disconnect the iron there and keep pumping out warriors. The worker there can pillage the iron once he completes mining there. I also switch from swordsman to granary - the city is next to a river and growth will be boosted.
Tonawanda is left as is - Temple under construction.
Maunch Chunk is left as is - Temple under construction.
St Regis is building barracks. I'm not overly convinced about this, but there is nothing else it can build which seems preferable under the circumstances. Better to do this, then crank out troops.
Centralia is (slowly) building a temple. I leave it as is.
Other notes: 20% luxuries is optimal - Salamanca at population 9 needs this.
Russia and China are both in Anarchy, India and Egypt are in Republic.
Our military is weak vs Egypt, average vs everyone else.
Ghandi will sell us Republic (and a vegetable curry) for World Map and 230 gold. I accept, as Republic will allow us to increase cash flow dramatically. I think about revolting for a while, but decide not to, as we only have two luxuries online right now.
After all that, I press the SPACE bar.
Salamanca builds marketplace, starts colloseum. It's going to grow to 10, so we need to get a "happy" building in there. It can also be changed to Cathedral once we get hold of Monotheism.
Egypt starts the Great Library.
(1) 710BC
We have no ROP with Russia, but the scout is inside their borders. I pull him out.
Hmm. We have a settler among the elephants. Two problems with this. We have no easy way to transport the ivory back to the homeland, and we'll probably be swamped by Egypt's culture. I plop down Stevetown where the settler stands, with the intention of building a warrior, temple and a harbor in that order.
Our galley is killed off by barbarians.
Cataraugus goes into disorder. Ugh! I zoom to the city and find... three CONTENT citizens and a taxman??? What gives here? Clearly Civ is on
here.St Regis culture expands.
Russia and India begin building the Great Library.
(2) 690BC
A second warrior reaches Cattaraugus. This should quell the riots there, although I can't understand why they occurred in the first place.
Not sure why we should be building roads in the jungle, when there are more important tiles to improve. I send the worker at Cattaraugus to the grassland North of the city, where he can mine and road.
A worker is sent to irrigate a tile in the Niagra Falls floodplains.
Order restored in Cattaraugus.
Maunch Chunk completes it's temple and starts a harbor. It won't grow beyond 3 (I think) as things stand right now.
Pyramids are completed by the Persians in Persepolis.
St Regis is connected to the trade network.
(3) 670BC
Move workers around. Roading towards Centrallia, Improving and roading between Allegheny and Cattaraugus and irrigating towards St Regis.
Allegheny builds spearman, starts marketplace.
Egypt, Russia and India start the Great Library (cascade from pyramids).
(4) 650BC
Allegheny spearman fortifies.
More movement of workers (MMOW).
Check happiness at Tonowanda and Maunch Chunk - both grew last turn.
Egypt and Russia now have Monotheism - Russia and India are both down to cautious. I wonder why.
(5) 630BC
MMOW
Scout moves towards Russian warrior/settler pair hiking through our lands.
Niagra Falls grew last turn - passes happiness check.
Culture must've expanded somewhere. Aaaah, Allegheny
Russian warrior/settler pair turn round and head back home.
Cattaraugus builds barracks, starts worker.
(6) 610BC
Worker at Oil Spring completes his mine and pillages iron. Oops. Can't pillage iron, moves to unimproved grassland to mine next turn.
Salamanca now at population 10 - Luxuries to 30% to stave off disorder.
Cattaraugus is connected to our trade network. The taxman there is put to work in the forest. An extra shield is generated (1 lost to corruption), and we're still running an excess of 3 food.
Russia and Egypt still want way too much for Monotheism.
I send the empire into revolt. It's borderline as to whether we'll make more cash in Republic, but I want the cash rush ability. We're making 24 gold per turn right now.
(7) 590BC
The republic of Iroquois is formed.
I begin adjusting everything. Luxuries to 20% allows all entertainers (from anarchy) to be fired. Making 36 gold per turn. Should've revolted as soon as I purchased Republic. Put it down to
Warrior rushed at Stevetown.
Three deep stack of workers completes irrigating at St Regis. I can't see any easy way of unstacking them, so I leave them stacked for the next irrigation project.
Scout harrasses Russian warrior/settler pair, who have turned back yet again.
Niagra Falls builds settler, starts granary.
Centrallia goes into disorder. Must've missed it somewhere.
Stevetown builds warrior, starts temple to be rushed next turn.
(8) 570BC
The big mystery - where is the Russian warrior/settler pair headed. I don't think they know either.
Cattaraugus builds worker, starts courthouse. Some corruption containment is required.
St Regis builds barracks, starts marketplace.
Centrallia still in disorder - totally forgot to adjust.
(9) 550BC
Taxman hired in Centrallia. Would require 50% luxuries otherwise.
Temple rushed in Stevetown. Please build a harbor here next to get the ivory into the rest of our empire
MMOW
Notes
Set Stevetown to harbor once the temple completes. This may be a worthwhile rush as it'll get another luxury online. Since we'll have three luxuries, marketplaces add two happy faces.
Settler between New River and St Regis is on his way to secure the hill NW of the iron tile.
Way too much
here WRT civil disorder.Allegheny should be building an aquaduct. Feel free to change.
Official turn - Iroquois - 550BC
great turn Steve!
I had the 3 content and a scientist riot as well
I was able to put out 3 workers from NF istead of the 1 settler. - I thought about going to settler on the last turn, but decided on harbor for reasons in my shadow turn. at the beginning of my turn, i couldnt find a place for the settler and the workers seemed so much more beneficial.
Compared to your trading deal, I was able to get Monotheism as well for only +1 gp and +3gpt === of course, i was only able to do this after the Russians traded mono to the egyptians -- which was bound to happen soon.
do you need a military unit to pillage the iron? i didnt think of unconnecting it, especailly since i wanted to use excess gold down in elephant land --- although i saved enough to upgrade all the warriors and send 9 swords into russia -- we need to get those horses!
I had the 3 content and a scientist riot as well
I was able to put out 3 workers from NF istead of the 1 settler. - I thought about going to settler on the last turn, but decided on harbor for reasons in my shadow turn. at the beginning of my turn, i couldnt find a place for the settler and the workers seemed so much more beneficial.
Compared to your trading deal, I was able to get Monotheism as well for only +1 gp and +3gpt === of course, i was only able to do this after the Russians traded mono to the egyptians -- which was bound to happen soon.
do you need a military unit to pillage the iron? i didnt think of unconnecting it, especailly since i wanted to use excess gold down in elephant land --- although i saved enough to upgrade all the warriors and send 9 swords into russia -- we need to get those horses!
Inherited: Great reasoning on Pyramids -> Marketplace/Colosseum. 
there.
One nit -- workers can't pillage. You need an an actual unit -- say a warrior -- to pillage a square. Explorers are the only non-attack units that pillage, to my knowledge. Also, once the iron's hooked up, I'd probably leave it up and running. We've got ~10 warriors to upgrade and Sala can produce a sword every two turns.
Excellent city-by-city review. No complaints on your actions from me. (Yeah, I did some things slightly differently, but there are many paths to glory.)
However, I disagree with not revolting to Republic. As a religious civ, we suffer very little anarchy. My general rule-of-thumb (quick check) is that if pop exceeds military units, revolt to Republic. We're in that situation, so I would revolt right away. It's nothing something that really waits until later better. Yeah, Sala will be harder to keep happy, but the extra commerce from the Republic bonus might take care of that even at 20% lux. It's usually worth revolting right away -- especially now with 20 shields max from whipping.
I hate colosseums. Cathedral isn't bad. At a certain point, too, you can just let Sala run a specialist or pop out another worker/settler crew or something. Not bad enough to be weed by any stretch but almost assuredly suboptimal.
(710) Temple, warrior, harbor is probably a better order. When in a culture war, getting something built first is critical. That area will be touch-and-go for some time. If it works out, it'll be extremely handy. If not...well...ok. But temple before warrior probably.
No clue on Catt. I revolted to Republic right away, so I didn't see anything of the sort. Did the road connect after the city was checked for happiness but before you looked in on it? That's my best guess but seems really odd.
(690) MC will grow beyond 3 because the exanded borders of the temple will give it a whale and another grassland. Still, harbor is a pretty good build.
I knew we had ZERO shot at Pyramids. Only, what, 25 turns away?
(670) Looks like good worker actions -- we need to improve our core more and first. Not sure about the road to Centralia, as it's probably better to chop the forest there first to speed production (and growth) of MC and then road, but that's reasonably minor.
(610) Nope, workers can't pillage. Nice recovery action, though.
Definitely should've revolted earlier. Still, at least you did it during your turn. The few turns of loss aren't THAT significant, often.
(590) Worker stack can break apart to help NF on its floodplain duties -- NF is working some non-optimized squares occasionally. That should be corrected.
Definite weed in Centralia. As far as cities to have go into revolt, though, a colony near the edge of our empire is a good choice. If Sala had been in revolt for a turn or two, you'd definitely deserve the business end of
. As it is, the cost is big, but not insurmountable.
(570) I can solve the mystery of the Russian settler/spear pair. It's heading to one of two locations -- either the tip of land NE of GR in the desert or where our settler is headed. Once we get our settler positioned, it will head for the othe spot. That spot should be block by our scout.
As far as Catt goes, I definitely agreee on the courthouse -- I probably would've done it even before the worker, but neither is a bad call.
Save game notes:
- A NF citizen working an irrigate desert? Move him to the floodplain. We're still in POP GROWTH mode for some time.
- OS citizen working unimproved grass? When there are two better squares for his use? Move him to the luxury site (silks?) and get a bunch of gold and an extra shield.
- St. R. citizen is still working the forest. You got the irrigation there. USE IT! He should have been moved ASAP once an irrigated grass square was available. We want St. R. as big as possible.
- A citizen working iron mountain? Silly. He should be on a gold hill -- more everything. Then, one citizen can be moved from a grass to a gold hill (we're at max pop) giving a ton of commerce, extra shields, and costing no food. The AI governor sucks and needs to be compensated for.
- Your income is way low -- another almost 20 gpt could have been achieved during these 10 turns.
Only major weeds are Centralia and the colosseum in Sala.
I should also mention with our cash situation as is, and the shield production of Sala, I don't like the idea of disconnecting the iron. Once it's done, it's done. Let's just run with. We have a lot more warriors than we can afford to upgrade right now anyway. The optimal window for warrior->sword upgrade is passed.
Arathorn
there.One nit -- workers can't pillage. You need an an actual unit -- say a warrior -- to pillage a square. Explorers are the only non-attack units that pillage, to my knowledge. Also, once the iron's hooked up, I'd probably leave it up and running. We've got ~10 warriors to upgrade and Sala can produce a sword every two turns.
Excellent city-by-city review. No complaints on your actions from me. (Yeah, I did some things slightly differently, but there are many paths to glory.)
However, I disagree with not revolting to Republic. As a religious civ, we suffer very little anarchy. My general rule-of-thumb (quick check) is that if pop exceeds military units, revolt to Republic. We're in that situation, so I would revolt right away. It's nothing something that really waits until later better. Yeah, Sala will be harder to keep happy, but the extra commerce from the Republic bonus might take care of that even at 20% lux. It's usually worth revolting right away -- especially now with 20 shields max from whipping.
I hate colosseums. Cathedral isn't bad. At a certain point, too, you can just let Sala run a specialist or pop out another worker/settler crew or something. Not bad enough to be weed by any stretch but almost assuredly suboptimal.
(710) Temple, warrior, harbor is probably a better order. When in a culture war, getting something built first is critical. That area will be touch-and-go for some time. If it works out, it'll be extremely handy. If not...well...ok. But temple before warrior probably.
No clue on Catt. I revolted to Republic right away, so I didn't see anything of the sort. Did the road connect after the city was checked for happiness but before you looked in on it? That's my best guess but seems really odd.
(690) MC will grow beyond 3 because the exanded borders of the temple will give it a whale and another grassland. Still, harbor is a pretty good build.
I knew we had ZERO shot at Pyramids. Only, what, 25 turns away?
(670) Looks like good worker actions -- we need to improve our core more and first. Not sure about the road to Centralia, as it's probably better to chop the forest there first to speed production (and growth) of MC and then road, but that's reasonably minor.
(610) Nope, workers can't pillage. Nice recovery action, though.
Definitely should've revolted earlier. Still, at least you did it during your turn. The few turns of loss aren't THAT significant, often.
(590) Worker stack can break apart to help NF on its floodplain duties -- NF is working some non-optimized squares occasionally. That should be corrected.
Definite weed in Centralia. As far as cities to have go into revolt, though, a colony near the edge of our empire is a good choice. If Sala had been in revolt for a turn or two, you'd definitely deserve the business end of
. As it is, the cost is big, but not insurmountable.(570) I can solve the mystery of the Russian settler/spear pair. It's heading to one of two locations -- either the tip of land NE of GR in the desert or where our settler is headed. Once we get our settler positioned, it will head for the othe spot. That spot should be block by our scout.
As far as Catt goes, I definitely agreee on the courthouse -- I probably would've done it even before the worker, but neither is a bad call.
Save game notes:
- A NF citizen working an irrigate desert? Move him to the floodplain. We're still in POP GROWTH mode for some time.
- OS citizen working unimproved grass? When there are two better squares for his use? Move him to the luxury site (silks?) and get a bunch of gold and an extra shield.
- St. R. citizen is still working the forest. You got the irrigation there. USE IT! He should have been moved ASAP once an irrigated grass square was available. We want St. R. as big as possible.
- A citizen working iron mountain? Silly. He should be on a gold hill -- more everything. Then, one citizen can be moved from a grass to a gold hill (we're at max pop) giving a ton of commerce, extra shields, and costing no food. The AI governor sucks and needs to be compensated for.
- Your income is way low -- another almost 20 gpt could have been achieved during these 10 turns.
Only major weeds are Centralia and the colosseum in Sala.
I should also mention with our cash situation as is, and the shield production of Sala, I don't like the idea of disconnecting the iron. Once it's done, it's done. Let's just run with. We have a lot more warriors than we can afford to upgrade right now anyway. The optimal window for warrior->sword upgrade is passed.
Arathorn
Me, I guess.
It's looking like I can't handle more than one review set a week, so let's make it official and settle into a turn-in by Wed, reviews by Friday groove with this game and get on with it.
Still 10 turns.
Arathorn
It's looking like I can't handle more than one review set a week, so let's make it official and settle into a turn-in by Wed, reviews by Friday groove with this game and get on with it.
Still 10 turns.
Arathorn
I'm looking for a training day game, and I read yours is getting a bit slow. Mind if I join? I have yet to play emporer in Civ3. I can hold my own up to monarchy now, and I've gotten lucky (VERY LUCKY) in one deity game.
