LOTR: War of the Ring ver. 0.9

Hey, Quasi, looks really great-I will have to download this one very soon :)!

Just a thought, though, in case you haven't already done it! Have you considered the possibility of liniking Orodruin and Barad-Dur, and placing Sauron in it as an immobile King Unit? (Actually, is this even POSSIBLE??) This way, if said King Unit is killed (by dropping of the 'Ring'), then the Dark-Lord side Automatically Loses!

In civ2, of course, they had scripting to reflect the effects of the loss of Sauron which went well beyond the whole King/Victory point thing-but what can you do?
Another possibility is to have the ring give a HUGE shield value if the Ring is disbanded. This way, if Saurons forces capture the ring and bring it back to Barad Dur, they can use it on that cities current project-a Great Wonder called 'The Dark Lord Triumphant'! Don't know what it should do exactly, but its completion SHOULD spell the end of theAs far as good guy King Units, which one(s) loss should spell games end for the Good Guys (if any?)

Also, I am curious to know how you have simulated the 'Paths of the Dead' and Moria (with its Balrog and Dark Servants ;)!)
Anyway, hope these rambling thoughts of mine help ;)!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Spoiler warning: If you'd rather just enjoy the scenario and not bother so much with the dirty behind-the-scenes details, no need to read the following. Here's a screenshot for your trouble.
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Heh. I can say that having gone through dozens of iterations of this scenario, I've considered nearly every permutation of how to execute it. The questions you raise about Sauron sitting on Mt. Doom and how to best execute the final destiny of the Ring--either side--were some of my earlier debates. Reverse Capture the Flag isn't perfect, but it's as close as the C3C model gives us, I think. I wish that upon deposit of the Ring, the enemies of whoever deposited it would promptly be annihlated, but RCTF continues to the next turn before confering victory. But as Churchill said of democracy, it's the worst system we have available except for all the others.

Sauron can't sit on Orodruin because I wanted Mt. Doom to erupt. He'd die before Frodo got to Rivendell. And the Ring can't really work as a nuke to destroy Sauron because nukes don't always destroy everyone in their target tile, as I think was a problem encountered in earlier scenarios. Besides, nuking anything implies use of the Ring, which would be a no-no if we are to adhere to the actual events (and creed) of the books. As it stands, Sauron is indeed immobile at Barad-dur. Check his Civilopedia article, and that should cover it.

Giving the Ring a big disband shield value also isn't quite accurate. The final destination of the Ring should be Mt. Doom, not a city. And there's no reason for the computer to know to disband such a unit, and I wanted this scenario to be playable by multiple civs. I kept the goal at Mt. Doom also for the sake of simplicity. I had considered putting a second shrine site at Isengard so Saruman could win by capturing the Ring, but then it also opens the possibility that if Gondor wanted a shortcut to victory, they could destroy Isengard and land the Ring there instead. That wouldn't make sense at all. So, K.I.S.S. applies.

Ah, and with the Army of the Dead you hit on what I consider a bit of a conundrum with the model I've chosen. If the scenario was more RPG-like and less turn-based strategy-like, the idea of the Army of the Dead might be easier to capture. But with a turn-based-strategy emphasis, it's harder. First of all, we have to identify what about the Army of the Dead is important to the story. Whatever it is, they have to be a powerful force that is uncertain to help Gondor. That uncertainty must be there, otherwise they're just a giant ace-in-the-hole for Gondor. If the model is to follow the story, they have to be able (they might, they might not) to 1) defend Gondor against the invading Corsairs, 2) aid in the defense of Minas Tirith. Currently as I've drawn it, the Paths of the Dead exists and in that I find a substitute for the Army of the Dead. If you don't mind a spoiler of sorts, I'll explain. I had a hard time deciding if there should be a path from Edoras to Erech. In the end I gave it to them for the following reason: if and when the Corsairs land an invasion force on the shores of Gondor, the Rohan AI is pretty reliable in sending south a host of Riders to attack the Corsair attackers. This effect basically captures the effect of the Army of the Dead's first task. On the second task the record is more spotty, at least from the direction of Erech. It's not a perfect capture of the Dead, but given the options, it's the closest I could come up with.

Oh yes, and about the Balrog... well... I actually didn't know what to do with him until late in the scenario's life. I think the final decision about Moria captures what the trilogy books encounter as Moria. And I emphasize Moria, as different from Khazad-dum, a Dwarf city. If this scenario was trying to model the Dwarf vs. Orc wars, this part would have to be changed, but given the timeline that I've restricted myself to (and this goes for the rest of the scenario), the Moria device, I think, works. Though, having seen the Balrog animation on these forums, I think he'd be the one unit I would apply custom imagery for. Don't know how to do that though. :) If someone wants to do that, you'd have my permission to add the anim (if you let me know), as long as you keep him a King unit so he's not visible at first.

I haven't played the Civ2 version, so I'd be interested to hear how that was done and what worked and what didn't.

I've also uploaded another screenshot, this of Helm's Deep. It represents another imperfect C3C device. I wish the Elves could land on the same tile as the Rohirrim, but Sid decided allies can't occupy the same space, so "cie la vie."

One final word, I couldn't have completed (obsessed over) the Civilopedia entries without the wonderful program CEC by Steph. He deserves kudos and much credit for his work. :goodjob:
 

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Well, CFC just swallowed a nice post :mad: Here's the summary:

I DL'ed the mod but haven't played it yet. I have never played Capture the Flag or Regicide, so I don't know if these will work.

There *might* be a way to make the Ring Mordor's king unit, capturable by other civs and destroyed only at Mt Doom

So there's no actual unit representing the Army of the Dead? There *might* be a way to make a unit capturable by Aragorn, upgradeable to the Army.

Only one of these could be used at once, and both require removing the Balrog's King flag.

How did you make the Balrog invisible at first? Is that a King unit ability?

How did you make the Elvish unit pop up in that screenie?

Why include Valinor? The Valar did not directly intervene in the War.

M-e should extend East to the edge of the map, IMO. And there are bigger, more detailed maps out there that I'm sure you could use if you want to.
 
OK, the one thing which Civ2 had-which civ3 lacks-is a scripting system (so it might be possible to look at the whole LOTR scenario thing when Civ4 comes out!!) Anyway, in that they had Barad-Dur/Orodruin as a single 'City' entity. 'Using' the ring (which was a nuke in the Civ2 version, btw) on Barad-Dur/Orodruin didn't actually signify USING the ring, but DESTROYING the ring-as its 'use' involved the destruction of Sauron (who stayed firmly inside Barad-Dur when the AI played him) and everyone else in Barad-Dur. In Civ2, the 'script' caused the bulk of the Dark-Lords forces to disappear when this happened-especially surviving Ring Wraiths.
Oh, the other issue was that, if Gandalf the Grey was ever killed, the 'script' caused Gandalf the White to appear. Same with Black Riders, when they were killed, their flying counterparts appeared in Mordor! The Army of the Dead was also scripted in the Civ2 version.
Also, you mentioned the 'unit vs the individual' focus of Civ3, but I always felt that the individuals of the fellowship were always 'Larger than Life' anyway (i.e. they seem to be as capable as a small army!). A secret is to ramp up the HP's of any units that represent actual masses of units (to say around 8-10HP), and then give the fellowship members 'standard' HP values (i.e. 2-6hp) Also, you could make King Units (e.g., Fellowship members) upgradable using manipulations of the tech tree (i.e. using era_none to create specific tech paths for Gandalf, Aragorn, the Hobbits, the Dark Riders). This could, in a small way, replace scripting, as you could have 'techs' which actually represent key events in the story, such as the reforging of 'The Blade that was broken', or the birth of 'Gandalf the White', that kind of thing. Its not perfect, but it could work.
Lastly, it would be excellent if you could find a Ring animation to replace the nuke-just for the overall 'feel' of the game. There are also lots of fantasy unit animations currently available at CFC, which you could use to replace some of the existing units you have!

Oh, and on a VERY final note, why or WHY did you have to have the Elves appearing at Helms Deep???? You ought to know that this event was NOT in the book, and was merely a Peter Jackson 'Corruption' of the Brilliant Lord of the Rings story!!!!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Argh.......I played a game as Isengard, but lost because I ran out of time....Where was teh freakin ring? :cry: I looked everywhere! I was about to burn the Shire to the ground in my rage, but tiem ran out!

2 questions:

1. Why does Gandalf and the Balrog have such low stats? I would think they would be pretty strong.....
2. Why isn't there a hidden passage through Mordor, like in teh books? I was playing as Gondor, and got to Mordor, only to be captured as soon as I entered. Why don't you add a hidden passage with Shelob guarding it? Ye,s there would be the problem of Mordor probably killing her and using the passage, but I can't come up with a solution for that right now.
 
Great Scenario. Here's a recap of my game.

- The Westfold fell to Saruman very quickly, and Sauron attacked Osgiliath in force. Faramir's archers ambushed a convoy from Harad, while Gondor sent all of its pikemen east to protect the white city. Denethor, quickly recognizing the importance of mobility, ordered his workers to construct a series of secret roads throughout the eastern forest. The gaze of his palantir was diverted west, however, when a swarm of Uruk-hai discovered a pass through the western edge of Ered Nimrais.

- Since Gondor had emptied its interior of fighting men to defend Osgiliath, Denethor was forced to travel to Erech, where he personally managed the defence of the city. Even still, it would have fallen, had a unit of Gondorian Cavalry not arrived in time to aid Denethor's defence. Eventually, the host from Isengard was destroyed, and the forces of Gondor managed to fight their way to the cursed pass. Workers arrived and constructed a fortress barring Isengard's future entry. Thus, Denethor was able to turn to the rapidly deteriorating situation in the east.

- Meanwhile, Gandalf had led Frodo and the Fellowship through Moria without incident, easily disposing of the Balrog and his minions. They encountered the Ents at the edge of Fanghorn Forest, and convinced them to join the cause against Isengard. The passage through Rohan was uneventful, save for the destruction of a small orc company that was harassing the Rohirrim.

- The battle for Osgiliath, however, was another story. The city would have surely fallen, had Denethor not ordered the construction of the eastern road network. These pathways allowed Faramir's men to draw the orcs into ambushes without incuring any major losses. Several Nazgul-led assaults did make it to the city, where trebuchets played a pivotal role. Unfortunately, throughout the attack Harad launched continious raids along the southwestern coast of Gondor, forcing Denethor to send a punitive cavalry expedition south along the Harad road. The first battle of Harad ended in a stalement, and the cavalry was forced to withdraw north to lick their wounds. They returned in time to cut off some archers who were attempting to resupply the city. The men of Gondor then launched a second assault, inflicting massive casualties, yet they could not storm the gate. They retreated once more to recover themselves. The third, and final attack was a success, thanks to the unlooked-for aid of elven archers who arrived in time to aid the horsemen of Gondor. The city fell, and King Mursilis was killed. The remaining people of Harad were so dismayed by the death of their king that they ran from their homes and fled into the sea.

- During this exodus, a sentry posted at Cair Andros sighted a disconcerting image - Uruk-hai. Saruman had pillaged his way through Rohan, devestating the countryside and cutting off Gondor's supply of Rohirrim horses. Unwilling to sacrifice his northern ally, Denethor withdrew all of the cavalry defending Osgiliath and sent them Northwest to the cursed pass. There, they launched a secret invasion of the Westfold, easily defeating the Orcish defenders. The company then divided in two, half heading for Edoras, the remainder for Isengard. Workers travelled with the first half, who annihilated the dark forces threatening the Eastfold, and they reconnected the roads linking Gondor with the horses of Rohan. The second company of horsemen pillaged the countryside surrounding Isengard and raised a siege until the arrival of Entish reinforcements.

- Unfortunately, the situation at Osgiliath became dire once again. Several units of Pikeman and bowmen had worked together to stifle the attacks of a much larger force from Mordor, however their strength was running thin. Just as Osgiliath semmed to be lost, the fellowship arrived from the north, and the victorious horsemen from Harad rode in from the south. These reinforcements dealt a death blow to the dark army, forcing them to retreat back to Minas Morgul.

- Time was getting short, and Gandalf urged Denethor to attack Mordor directly. The arrival of the cavalry returning from Rohan spurred Denethor into action. He mobilized the forces of Gondor into a grand assault upon Minas Morgul. Perhaps he caught Sauron by surprise, because the tower was captured with few losses. The true battle occured on the plateau of Gorgoroth, where a desperate cavalry charge revealed a great leader - Aragorn! Aragorn immediately assembled an army of bowmen and pikemen, and pushed towards Mount Doom. This escort proved sufficient, as Frodo and the fellowship arrived at the dreaded mountain unscathed. They climbed the hieghts of Mount Doom, accompanied by Aragorn's army, and threw the ring into the fire, defeating Sauron.

- It was Sauron who had the last laugh, however, because Mount Doom's subsequent eruption killed all those atop the mountain save Frodo. :wallbash: Alas, it was a bittersweet victory for the forces of Good...

Some Questions :confused: Comments About the Scenario:

1. Has the path of the dead been implemented correctly? Only Rohan is capable of travelling through it! If the path is only meant to be representative, then Erech should be moved 1 square NE. This way the riders of rohan (or the victorious forces of Isengard) would be unable to enter Gondor through this path. If the fellowship is supposed to be able to utilize the path, then Edoras should be moved instead.

2. Why not give Gondor an invisible archer unit for a UU? This could represent the geurrila fighters commanded by Faramir. As it is, I fought almost exclusively with cavalry, only using bowmen during the initial stage before I had access to horses.

3. On the topic of invisibility, you say that only Sauron and the Nazgul can see Frodo. But in a post, you state that Sauron's eye can see the entire map. Doesn't this mean that Frodo is visible to the forces of Mordor?

4. I love the size of this map. Too many authors make huge maps with too many cities. Unfortunately, until I looked at the map in the editor, I didn't see the path around Minas Morgul. I was wondering how you expected poor little Frodo to storm the tower! Now I see...too bad. I could have saved all of those heroes.

All in all, I am quite impressed. I would have liked to see animated LOTR leaderheads (at least for the non-humans) but you focused on gameplay, which is much more important, in my opinion. Great Job! :goodjob:
 
I HAVE A HUGE PROBLEM!
i download the zip file, i try open and save, even save target as... but it comes up as a windows media player, the old one, since my comp is 98. it still says its a zip file, im :mad: and am going to :nuke: my computer soon if i dont find out how, i wanna try these scn bad!
 
quasidemo said:
I had a hard time deciding if there should be a path from Edoras to Erech. In the end I gave it to them for the following reason: if and when the Corsairs land an invasion force on the shores of Gondor, the Rohan AI is pretty reliable in sending south a host of Riders to attack the Corsair attackers. This effect basically captures the effect of the Army of the Dead's first task. On the second task the record is more spotty, at least from the direction of Erech. It's not a perfect capture of the Dead, but given the options, it's the closest I could come up with.

Sorry about comment #1 Quasi. :blush: I read this post and I guess this answers my question. The only problem - Isengard had Rohan pretty much under control. Rohan never sent anybody through the path. But the most the corsairs ever landed with was 2 swordsmen, so it was never a big deal. I do see the delemma here. I was going to suggest making the 'fellowship' unit able to travserse mountains, but then neither moria nor the mountains surrounding mordor are factors anymore. :confused: This is a hard one...
 
Hey Quasi, here is an idea to consider in regards to the 'Paths of the Dead' and the Shadow Army recruited by Aragorn.

First up, you have the Aragorn Character who starts the game as a 'Mere Ranger', but who can be upgraded when you obtain the techs 'Anduril Reforged', 'Annointing of Elessar', 'Return to Gondor', 'Leading the Rohirrim' and 'Getting the Palantir'.

The thing is that, one of the upgrades for Aragorn involves either (a) ability to 'build roads', (b) Ability to ignore certain impassable terrains or (c) both.

The next issue is that the 'Paths of the dead' might be blocked by an immobile unit, one which can only suitably be elminated by Aragorn and/or other members of the fellowship. In addition, though, only Aragorn can successfully reach the city of 'Erech', which contains the shadow army-a city and army which is hemmed in by a couple of 'curse units', on one side, and by impassable terrain on the other. 'Breaking the Curse' allows Aragorn into the city, at which point he can build a road OUT of Erech, which will allow the shadow units in the city to join him on his ride to defeat the Corsairs of Umbar.
Hope that makes sense!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
[zxe] What a great story! I'd say that's almost better than the book. More compact, anyway. I love the ironic twist at the end. Sometimes games do turn out as good as fiction - this is what makes Civ great.

Personally I think that Quasidemo got the individual/army balance just right. Gandalf, after all, isn't really a strong military unit (remember in "The Hobbit" we are told that leaping from a tree to attack some wolves would have killed him) - his power, and that of Saruman, comes from their charismatic ability to inspire others, not to perform improbable magical feats. I like the stated aim of replaying the grand scale of the War of the Ring, looking at other things that might have been happening rather than trying to recreate exactly what happened in the books.

Also, the map is just right in this game - nice and small, making an interesting and fast-moving game. I think that smaller maps do tend to make for better games, and this is certainly true here.

And why *shouldn't* there be elves at Helm's Deep, eh? So there aren't in the book? Well, it's nice to think they helped out a bit rather than all clearing off to the Undying Lands, isn't it? At least no-one seems to think the scenario should have Tom Bombadil in it...
 
PLayed last night and really like the scenario. Like the others, I love the map size and the way you've represented the story in the scenario. Some purely contructive criticism...

A couple of map based comments. Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth should be built on hills (the same goes for Dol Guldor but I dont remember if you have built it this way). The Lonely Mountain should be on the mountain, but Im not sure if that is possible.

There should be a bit of road extending south through Eriador to near the end of the gap of Rohan to represent the Greenway, some Tolkein maps actually have a road from Isengard to Bree while some have the road trial off right before the gap.

From a purely stylistic view some ruins at Eregion, Annuminas, and Tharbad might be a nice touch.

As regards gameplay...

I didnt realize until halfway through the game just how powerful the eagles are for the elves. Its possible to land a unit on Isengard's only iron source or in the heart of Mordor. This might be too much, although limiting range is the only other option.

The dwarves need some stronger enemies on thier east. They seem to go on the offensive far too much. I dont remember the names of the enemies which attacked Dale and the Lonely Mt. (Variags from Khand?), but if I remember the appendix, Dain and Bard (?) were pretty hard pressed. Dale was sacked and they were beseiged in the Mt. Also Dale & the Boernings need to be represented as a minor NPC civ.

The elves need a source of iron that is closer than 6 tiles away. Not directly in thier borders, but one that they can access in less than 20-30 turns.
 
Ok...someone tell me which version of Civ I need to play this?

I have CivIII (vanilla). So no king units or anything like that.
 
Q'el Chamyaar said:
Ok...someone tell me which version of Civ I need to play this?

I have CivIII (vanilla). So no king units or anything like that.

Im pretty sure you need Conquests at the least. Not sure which version of COnquests would be required, need Quasi for that.
 
joycem10 said:
Im pretty sure you need Conquests at the least. Not sure which version of COnquests would be required, need Quasi for that.

I'm using C3C v. 1.22 if I recall correctly.

I'm in stitches reading all these posts. :lol:

BTW... just got ROTK: EE this morning. I was going to wait but I saw a commercial with the Witchking whipping out a sword and then the sword BURSTING INTO FLAME. After that, I didn't have a chance of holding out. ;)

Doing this scenario was sort of also a way of tiding me over during the long months between movie releases.
 
I tried to DL this, and I tried to play it, but it got stuck on the configuring scenario screen. Can anyone help?
 
quasidemo said:
BTW... just got ROTK: EE this morning. I was going to wait but I saw a commercial with the Witchking whipping out a sword and then the sword BURSTING INTO FLAME. After that, I didn't have a chance of holding out. ;).


Im looking forward to watching all three EEs consecutive sometime during the xmas holiday. I swear that I will hold out until then.
 
Aussie_Lurker said:
OK, the one thing which Civ2 had-which civ3 lacks-is a scripting system (so it might be possible to look at the whole LOTR scenario thing when Civ4 comes out!!)


Lastly, it would be excellent if you could find a Ring animation to replace the nuke-just for the overall 'feel' of the game. There are also lots of fantasy unit animations currently available at CFC, which you could use to replace some of the existing units you have!

Oh, and on a VERY final note, why or WHY did you have to have the Elves appearing at Helms Deep???? You ought to know that this event was NOT in the book, and was merely a Peter Jackson 'Corruption' of the Brilliant Lord of the Rings story!!!!!


Wow! Scripting sounds like it would be the answer to all these shortcomings of the C3C model. I wish they had found a way to keep that feature. Though, as with all tools, there would be the danger to overuse it and perhaps complicate matters. ;)

I'll look into changing some graphics for a 1.0 release maybe. I'd appreciate links to suggested graphics if you come across any good ones.

As for the Elves at Helm's Deep... haha... I knew that a purist would raise an eyebrow at that. And I'm glad Plotinus has pointed out that no one's advocated for Mssr. Bombadil to be represented here. I agree with Jackson, et. al, that the story is enriched if the Elves aren't sitting out the fight.
 
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