LotR26 Mounted Mongols

Are we set on war vs. Pacal instead of war vs. Qin? Pacal should have MMS diplo bonuses, as well as religion bonuses. I hate attacking a friend when we don't have to. If our forces are in the east, Qin's even closer. I know we've been at war with Pacal once, but....

Anyway, I should be able to play in 11ish hours, so I'm soliciting opinions until then. I'm still torn. I'm glad Charly is gone, though. VERY glad.

Arathorn
 
Ah okay, good point about attacking a friend - I've just looked at our borders, and attacking Pacal would do the overall shape of our empire good. We have religion and mutual struggle boni with Pacal, so yeah, losing him as a friend would hurt us. And looking at the power graph, Qin is weaker by far than Pacal...so positioning our knights to attack Pacal was maybe :smoke:, but can be remedied quickly with their fast movements. And our spies have just arrived in Pacal's lands as well, so we lost no time, and we still have more than enough EPs with Qin from the bombing. Our borders would be ugly, though...not sure who the right target would be here. :crazyeye:

What I am sure of though is that our knights will be able to fight another successful war. :D

-Kylearan
 
Been playing a bit but things got very complicated very fast, so it's slow going. Suffice it to say, I should've taken the advice of everyone (including Ragnar) and declared on Pacal. Oh well.

We have a great spy. Any complaints about a Scotland Yard in our capital? It's worth 16 EPs/turn. Settling him is worth a bit more commerce but fewer EPs, until we get a jail or courthouse or something.

Arathorn
 
I am back and glad you managed to remove Charly cleanly.
If we have lots of EP left against QIn, we should let him live until we manage to steal all what is possible.
With our 'no defence' units, having a clean border is possibly a very good thing, but having a friend to trade with and help during wars is also very valuable.

JAbah
 
I'm probably in the minority, but for a game that won't go past Calvarly I'm not sure Scotland Yard is the right move. I'd probably bomb the another leader. Anyway, I don't have any major objections to it.

Darrell
 
The first decision I had to make was who to war against. Pacal was the popular choice -- do the Mongols need friends? Warring against Qin was like trying to fight a land war in Asia -- massive fronts and long supply lines.

Wait a minute! We're the Mongols! Land wars in Asia are our speciality! So what if they're destructive? And, who are we? Napoleon? A land war in Asia? How can I resist? The fact that there's much better land in Qin's area and Qin has fewer troops and more wonders being built, our EP advantage against Qin, etc. are "complete non-factors". It's all about the long exposed front and flowing battles.

Of course, on the interturn, Ragnar comes asking me to declare on Pacal. Sigh. I just can't do it, though. My mind is made up. Put one more diplo demerit on our ledger.

It starts out very nicely, even without spies.

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Knights are powerful. I do lose a couple -- one at >90% odds. The next set of cities have lots of culture and/or walls/castles, so they'll take a bit longer. And we need to heal.

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Err...what?!?

I mean, seriously, WHAT?!?

Oh, I snapped the picture too soon. Qin, out of the blue, vassalized himself to De Gaulle (the Americans, BTW). And Peter is a vassal of De Gaulle, too. Quick check of the power graph shows De Gaulle as tops. LOVELY!

Map check? OK, Peter has a border just south of us -- between us and Ragnar. He might have all his troops there, if he captured the city recently. Could be little. I'll divert one knight south. De Gaulle is SE of Qin. Our newly-captured cities are in some danger, but at least our troops are in the right area.

I want an ally. I want more than one ally, but I'll settle for one. Pacal, of course, has too much on his hands. I wonder if I can change that.

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But, now, he doesn't like us enough to declare on De Gaulle. $*@#()&$()*@& Nothing I'm trying is working out the way I want it to. We have a -4 from refusing to help during wartime. What about his refusing to help us during wartime?!? At least we have a very large front to defend.

Oh, but our "wise" men can't figure out how to engineer better roads, so we only move 4 along our insufficient road network. Our spy network claims that other nations know how to build such roads, but they're not able to claim such knowledge yet.

So our spies trudge east and knights heal and gather. Our three cities with barracks and gers should be building knights almost exclusively. I'm not sure why one was building a spy. Spies can come from other places.

Skirmishes erupt here and there with the stray American or .... what's Qin again? Something weird. Anyway, occasional troop from De Gaulle or Qin. Heal. Position.

I do get a spy around and move forces up to take another Qin city, because the action's not been TOO major elsewhere. It will mean a turn without the ability to quickly react to threats.

Of course, that causes....

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I would've needed everybody together to deal with that anyway. And, remember what I said about moving 4 and poor road networks? Yeah, we can't deal with that right now. I do take ... a pic of taking another Qin city. But I don't have it. Sorry. :( It was the one north of Patil... Aelibela or something like that.

I really wanted to play another 5 turns to get to 15. But I could only get 10 in. And there's no way I'll get more time for quite a while.

Situation:
- Adulis was abandoned and lost. We have many knights in the area. If/when De Gaulle moves out of the city, we should be able to crush most of that American stack, including flanking away the large catapult stack.
- Spies discovered Peter's city south of us. We could maybe raze it with a few forces diverted south. It's not an immediate threat area, at least.
- We have a couple spies in Qin's cities. Depending on how militaristic we're feeling and/or are able to be, they can incite revolts for captures/razes. Or they can sit a while and steal techs (Engineering would be hugely valuable).
- We're fairly close to Nationalism. We may want to try for Taj in Karakorum. A Golden Age would be pretty handy. Nationalism, purely for the EP boost, could/should be considered as well. I think I prefer the xp, but EPs might be our lifeblood soon.
- De Gaulle refuses to talk. Pacal won't declare. Sigh.
- We're unhealthy. We were getting some health resources from Qin. It's bad enough that I started an aqueduct and maybe we should build another. Saving 2 food (from an aqueduct) lets us run a specialist, which is worth 6 science. Hard to argue with that. Be a bit careful with it, though.
- I whipped some here and there. The bank in Delhi was pretty handy, once it came in. No military was whipped, though that may need to change. And we still need 15+ more workers.

Save file.

Roster:
Arathorn -- out 3/26 - 3/30
darrelljs -- UP NOW
Jabah -- on deck
Ozbenno
Kylearan

Arathorn
 

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Got it...looks like some fun turns coming up :D. FWIW, I think Qin was a fine decision, his lands are much nicer, and Pacal has the SoZ.

Nationalism is also no upkeep, I think it is a no brainer civics change during a GA. Stealing Engineering is critical, will try to get that done. Without checking out the save I can't give any specific comments, but I do plan on playing tonight. Inputs most definitely welcome!

Darrell

P.S. Did I mention vassal states suck? At least with Bhuric's patch you get auto peace when someone you are at war with vassalizes to a third party. It was well implemented too, there is no 10 turn peach treaty so you can just re-declare if you weren't finished.
 
Ozbenno - I forgot about Vassalage and Nationhood being in the same bucket :blush:. You are right, staying in Vassalage was a no brainer (especially with us being Organized).

I played 15 fairly careful, conservative turns. Arathorn's post made we worry we were in a pickle as my mom would say, but tactically he had us in a fine position. Strategically, not so much and I didn't want to overextend as a result. I start off with some minor citizen micro to get Nationalism down to 2, plus whip a Granary or two. I notice two things that had me a bit puzzled:

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Unimproved Dyes? Oh, we don't have Calendar. That will be another high priority steal. The Great Spy went towards Scotland Yard in Karakorum. I really question that move, to be honest. We would get more beakers+EPs just settling him, and the bomb would be really useful. But it seemed to be the will of the majority so I went ahead and did it. In between turns, de Gaulle does something stupid:

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I find it wonderful that de Gaulle is American in this game, I really do. Anyway, I had exactly enough Knights to kill that stack of CR Maceman (Drill?), and enough flank attacks to kill all the Catapults. Charlie would now deign to give us peace for Delhi. No, I want a froggie burger (no offense Jabah, France is awesome and Paris is the greatest city in the world, but an American de Gaulle is just too funny to pass up a joke or two :lol:). After moving his stack out, Adulis was guarded with very little, and to boot he pulled the Pikeman out the next turn. That city was useless in the extreme, so I took the opportunity to raze it. Incidentally, someone has been giving our proud Knights some pretty odd names. I'm looking in your general direction, Ozbenno :mischief:.

Nationalism comes in and I set research to Military Tradition. I also put Karakorum onto the Taj Mahal. I am dying to swap to Mercantilism, in fact it was stupid not to, but I felt like I couldn't afford the anarchy while at war with three civs. If we do land the Taj (Pacal finished Nationalism during my turns), we have to get there, and if we make peace OR WW gets to be too painful, we should swap. It was at this point that I noticed our EPs were being placed on Pacal, so I split them between Peter and Qin. I am moving slowly, building up our stacks, I want to take Yeha and Aksuma with two separate stacks, then merge to take out Gondar and probably Addis Ababa.

1240 A.D. was a good year. Qin completed the Temple of Solomon and Peter renounced the protection of de Gaulle. I had thrown a few Knights toward Leiria, and Arathorn already had a Spy there. I quickly took the city and made peace with Peter for some gold. That was useful, now all the attacks should come from one direction. I also got a nice boost in 1250 A.D. when we stole Engineering and Calendar. The happy was nice, the extra movement was decisive. I had to move EPs back to Qin though, we were almost out of the bomb.

Qin seems to be massing troops in both Yeha and Aksum. I am waiting for him to move out of the city and take him in the field. I end up baiting him a bit, by moving out one tile and covering the road so he either has to go through my stack or take two turns to reach our frontline cities:

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This is the baiting at Aksum. It works, and I pick off a fairly decent stack, but he moved a lot of reinforcements up from the interior and I underestimated how many Knights I would need to take the city. Not so on the Yeha front, he moves a large stack including most of his pikes into the forest south of the city. I back into the city, and here is the picture when I end the turn (note that Qin renounced the protection of de Gaulle, whom I made peace with for some gold :cool:):

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It is brutal IBT for Qin, I don't lose a single unit and his stack is completely wiped out. I promote what units I can and after healing for two turns move into position. He still has several Longbows, a Pike and two Maceman, but after inciting a revolt we win, again with no losses:

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That was nice...the Pike was only 30% and a few of the Longbows were right at 50%. I'm going to Vegas next week, hope my luck holds out :). In fact, I was on such an RNG high I decided to try my luck at Aksum. I almost lost our Medic III Chariot in the process :(. Really, it could have been worse, Qin was so decimated his counter attack was fairly weak. The city doesn't have a whole lot left in it, but unfortunately we don't have the resources on this turn to finish it off:

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Here's what we have down at Yeha:

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I think we have enough there to take Gondar and end the age of men, then merge the stacks for Addis Ababa, and then maybe vassalize Qin. Not sure if that is the best path, but it is probably what I would do. Don't forget Monuments won't go obsolete for us this game, and they are +1 happy!

Darrell
 

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Nice play darrell :goodjob:

Qin should be just about spent. If we can I'd prefer to take all his cities, if we can keep the WW under control, but we then risk him re-vassalizing to someone. There doesn't look to be a big enough gap in his cities to be able to culturally keep them and he only looks to have 3 left.

As for the knight naming, as I said, the idea of Mongol knights really amused me and I got to thinking of how they would be called :p
 
Great turns, and some great reporting, too! :goodjob: That baiting was really well done. I'm really amazed how few pikes we seem to face. In a normal game, I always feel the AIs built a pike for every knight I have...in fact, if our successful warring continues, I may admit that building Scotland Yard might have been a mistake after all. I may have overestimated the emperor AIs.

I don't know when an AI vassalizes itself to another AI, so maybe vassalizing Qin would be better than taking him out - although I would prefer the latter. (Yes, another vassal system hater here...)

-Kylearan
 
I have it, and try to play tonight or tomorrow.
(but being up in the 2 SG I am playing and both being at wartime, I have I can't say for sure that I will finish in 24h)

Jabah
 
Roster:
Arathorn -- out 3/26 - 3/30
darrelljs
Jabah -- UP NOW
Ozbenno -- on deck
Kylearan

Nice play, darrell. I was really hoping that De Gaulle's stack would do exactly what it did and had been trying to get into position for exactly that eventuality. I love it when a plan comes together. Just wish I'd've been able to find the time to pull it off. No matter, you did fantastic.

Stealing techs -- good, good. Both of those are quite good to have. I'm glad the EPs were valuable.

I'm surprised Peter and De Gaulle weren't able to muster more troops. Seems like this age, even on Monarch, I'm used to fighting massive stacks of units. I've been invaded by stacks of 50+ units of trebs, maces, pikes from AIs with less and worse land than any of Qin, Peter, and De Gaulle. I didn't kill that many on my turns.

I'm not a vassal system hater. But I'm not sure I see any benefit of vassalizing Qin. Does he have techs we need/want? Are we desperate to go in another direction? I don't think so. I would continue to take his cities until we see a pressing reason not to (3+ good techs would probably be reason not to, IMO, but I'm not sure what else would be).

Is there a reason we're keeping 800+ gold in reserve? I would crank science until we can build curaissiers. We can use knights as city defenders (how often have you said that?) while our new units start to rampage. We're not going to do much upgrading, I imagine. Another production city or two online would be handy. I was working in that direction. But I was fearing we would need to get to Biology before we could win. Maybe not.

Target for cuirassiers, or whatever they are? I'm thinking it's really time for Pacal. We could continue to stretch our borders and go after De Gaulle or Peter or Ragnar. Realistically, though, I think Pacal has outlived his usefulness. Only a couple techs away.

Arathorn
 
But I was fearing we would need to get to Biology before we could win. Maybe not.

That's the big question, isn't it? Will we shut research down after Rifling, or will we press on to Biology? I ended up building Scotland Yard just in case, because there is more tech path synergy than I expected. We need Gunpowder and Replaceable Parts for Rifling. Gunpowder opens up Chemsitry. Replaceable Parts requires Printing Press, which opens up Scientific Method (in conjunction with Chemistry, which is also a prereq for Biology). That means after gaining access to Calvary we are only three techs away from +1 food per farm, which is huge. Probably better to go that extra step before swapping to Police State.

Cuirassier might be better against de Gaulle. Pacal has the SoZ, and Calvarly might help keep WW down. It might be worthwhile to use a Knight to scout out Pacal's defenses before making a decision.

Darrell

P.S. Here is a thread where Unconqured Sun delivers a Cuirassier beatdown after pulling a Liberalism -> MT slingshot and trading for Gunpowder. Peter DOES have Gunpowder now, we can't trade for it but we could steal it and Scotland Yard would really help with that. Maybe the best thing to do with all that cash is to burn it on EPs?

edit: don't bother visiting the thread, the images were lost during the recent server attack :(.
 
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