LotR3 - SHADOW - Emperor training

[BrianJ]

EDIT: I played this morning as I was up early!

Preturn:
The economy is much stronger in the official save than in the games I checked out. 46 gold

and 5gpt, naturally because of the 6.2.2 slider.

My weedy Settler plan last time.. Scout may have been a better choice, but the settler

would have finished when the city expanded to 3.. I was expecting growth to 3 before the

settler completed.

(1)3450:
Worker starts Mine. Scouts heads south. The western one finds the famous cows.

The eastern scout moves directly onto a mountain. Yes I know this apparently is weedy, and

he could have moved to the grasslands first, but he gets the same range visible either way.

I could reload the game to prove the point but I dont bother.

The northern scout moves towards the hut.

(2)3400:
Eastern scout moves onto grass, then east to see the peninsula. Not much there.
Western scout moves 2, south then east, showing a river through the jungle.

The olmec tribe to the north teaches us Masonry.

(3)3350:
Northern scout moves east through the hills.
Western scout moves east to fill blank spots.
Western scout moves towards the dyes.

(4)3300:
Russian Spear approaches our borders, Salamanca completes a warrior. I start another

warrior. I want a garrison in NF as well.

All scouts move south, the eastern one takes 2 moves, 1 west, one south.

(5)3250:
NF riots as it expands. 9 turns from Temple. I hire an entertainer. Well, I know I should

have spotted this coming.. I'll get dinged for it, but I'll let it stand. I could restore

and fix it but what would that prove? I hire an entertainer. more weed?

Russian border is spotted in the jungle by the western scout.

Northern scout, heading south, then west, spots gold in them thar hills..

At this point, the Russian scout is now to our north, but I obviously can't sell Cathy our

map yet. She has BW and WC, we have CB and Masonry. She wants both our techs for

one of hers.. nah..

(6)3200:
Salamanca expands, and can now complete 2 warriors per turn. 1 warrior complete. I switch

to Settler. Complete in 6 turns, and the city will expand in 2 turns. OK, I'll be expecting

a weed call here and will look forward to the reasoning why or why not this was a good

idea. We have lots of choices to build but to me, we need expansion before our friendly

neighbour gets out of her jungle.

Order is restored in Niagara. Our second warrior heads to Niagara.

Northern scout finishes exploration of the north. southern ones skirt Cathys borders to

either side.

(7)3150:
Ouch, Cathy may have jungle to the north but she has mountains to the west/SW. Little

choice but to expand towards us! All the more reason to build settlers.

Our worker finishes the mine and starts a road in the same spot.

Northern scout has nothing else to do, heads south.

(8)3100:
More exploring. Cathy also has furs hooked up.

(9)3050:
Warrior reaches NF, I remember to fire the Entertainer.

(10)3000:
Scout spots an isthmus to the west near the cows! Moves towards it.. The other scout moves

south of Moscow.


EmTrain_Brian_3000BC

EDIT: After a look at Lees map, I noticed my scout went through in the same position as his near Moscow. I managed to avoid stopping in her bordes though. The worker is ona mountain. I mean to move it to thehill, east of Salamanca to build mine.road to NF.

EDIT2: Made save game link more obvious..

 

[LKendter]

Originally posted by Brian J
EDIT: I played this morning as I was up early!

(5)3250:
NF riots as it expands. 9 turns from Temple. I hire an entertainer. Well, I know I should have spotted this coming.. I'll get dinged for it, but I'll let it stand. I could restore and fix it but what would that prove? I hire an entertainer. more weed?

Well I suspect you will get a weed on this one

 

[Arizona_Steve]

Inherited Turn:
Salamanca borders expand.

(1) 3450BC:
Worker is already in position. He starts a mine where he stands.
I know I am inviting the wrath of Arathorn, but I am not convinced by the temple at Niagra Falls. My instinct here is to pop out a warrior for military police duty, then another settler. Right now, the city will reach population 3 before the temple is complete and go into disorder. At the same time we need more shield producing squares, but I don't think the temple will bring that many into range. I change it to a warrior, hoping that the error of my ways (if any) will be pointed out.
Scout #1 moves to the mountains via a grassland to take full advantage of his 2 movement.
Scout #2 moves South, towards the Russians I think.
Scout #3 moves East of the goody hut, getting a good view out to sea from the forest.

(2) 3400BC:
Scout #1 moves into the jungle via a grassland and finds spices.
Scout #2 continues South towards where I think the Russians are.
Scout #3 pops the goody hut, and we learn Masonry.
Niagra Falls produces a warrior and is switched to a settler.

(3) 3350BC:
Warrior is fortified in Niagra Falls.
Scouts move around. A second spice is sighted.
Salamanca produces a warrior and starts a settler.

(4) 3300BC:
Warrior is fortified in Salamanca.
Scout #1 moves South of the spices and spies the Russian border. Not quite where I thought they were. I would place a priority on settling the spices.
Scout #2 moves onto a one tile wide choke point.
Scout #3 moves back to explore the North East part of our land that is still in the fog.

(5) 3250BC:
More movement of scouts.

(6) 3200BC:
Scout #1 snoops around the Russian borders.
Scout #2 moves two steps along the chokepoint and runs into a foreign warrior.
Scout #3 reveals grasslands in the North East.
I contact the Chinese. Mao is cautious. They have Warrior Code, Bronze Working and Mysticism in addtion to our techs. They ask for 40 Gold for warrior code, and 50 gold for Bronze working. All our treasury of 78 gold plus 1 gold per turn for both. I negotiate warrior code for 38 gold and call it a day. Mao is now polite towards us.

(7) 3150BC:
A Russian spearman wanders up to our borders. A sneak attack? Let's see what he does next turn.
Our worker completes his mine and starts a road.
Scout #1 rumbles in the jungle.
Scout #2 has made it past the choke point and has a whole new world to explore.
Scout #3 completes his North Eastern explorations and is brought back down to fog-bust a remaining area to the South of Niagra Falls.

(8) 3100BC:
The Russian spearman is exploring along our borders. False alarm for now.
More movement of scouts.

(9) 3050BC:
More movement of scouts.
Salamanca creates it's settler and is ordered to begin construction of a granary. More population = more power.

(10) 3000BC:
Our settler moves towards the spices. The exact settling spot will not be decided until scout #3 gets there and snoops around a bit more.
Our worker completes his road. He is moved back into Salamanca on his way to mining the hill to the East, and roading to Niagra Falls.
Scout #2 spies more borders in the fog.
Niagra Falls is due to grow next turn and will riot if allowed to do so. I switch a citizen from the wheat to a coastal square to give us an extra gold per turn and no further growth.

File: LotR3 - Arizona_Steve - 3000BC

 

[Arizona_Steve]

Here's where I propose to send the two settlers. Settler #1 is already on his way to claim the spices. The square selected gets both spices online immediately.

The second spot in the grassland will net us four shielded squares, and two gold squares. The cow is outside the city boundary - I considered a square closer to the capital to be more significant (corruption) as this will one day be a killer production city.

 

[Arathorn]

(0) 3500 - Change Niagara Falls to worker. It will eventually speed up growth and will lessen revolt chances -- the pop will be lower. It will finish in just a few turns and that's a good thing.

(1) 3450 - Just exploring. Two scouts head south as much as possible and the northern one hits the forest to see the ocean before getting the goodie hut.

Russia has no workers for sale. I check every turn early on. Yeah, it's tedious -- very tedious. I blame the interface for this but the benefit of getting an extra slave early is substantial -- helps us a lot and puts a reasonable crimp in the growth of the civ we purchased from.

(2) 3400 - The northern scout does the N, SW shuffle to get the goodie hut. I get warrior code from the Saxons, as did many others. Does the direction you enter the hut change what you get? Might be. Something I might want to test (in another game) - mainly to satisfy my curiosity. (In this case, the dance didn't matter. It only matters when there is a mountain in range of the grassland that might not be seen from the hill -- would be across the sea in this case. It's highly unlikely and not necessarily terribly useful knowledge, but the little things add up, even when they don't happen.)

The southern scouts start their unfriendly jungle trek.

The citizen who was on the wheat in Salamanca moves to the shield grassland. this gets us the warrior one turn earlier and doesn't waste any shields. Waiting for the next turn would "waste" two shields that will have no purpose. Of course, then, NF moves its second citizen to the wheat to increase its size as much as possible. Maximal production is the goal here.

I also decreased science to 10% this turn, which I should've done last turn.

Between turns, Salamanca completes its warrior and I order another. NF completes its worker and I order a temple again.

(3) 3350 - Check the cities. Salamanca needs 10 shields for a warrior. It has two citizens to work beyond its initial one. One is pretty well locked onto the mined/roaded bonus grass. That's 3 shields per turn. The second can either work the wheat for no shields or the other bonus grass for one shield. 3 + 3 + 4 = 10. I like that plan. Now, check the food situation, too. PERFECT! Working the wheat twice and the grass the third turn will let us grow exactly the third turn. Wish I could say I'd planned for this earlier, but I hadn't. Still, it's ideal. Wheat twice, then shielded grass. (At this point, I hope I will remember to do this, because I'm prone to occasional spells of forgetfulness.)

To accomplish this, I have to move the NF citizen to the north wheat, away from the AI default. Using right/left arrows saves TONS of time doing this -- I highly recommend it. I do the wheat first, under the general good principles of food first (when the exact computation above isn't done, I do food first as growing will sometimes allow both to be done). It also is important to leave the wheat open for NF when NF can use it. NF can't use the tile this turn (only one citizen) but will be able to in a few turns. Twisted web we weave....

Anyway, I also now evaluate my inter-turn build choices. The warrior will be unit #7 and we can support 8 with no gold cost, so I call that decision good (we will need MP before too long). Larger military also helps with trading with the AI. Temple? We need those plains in range pretty soon for shields. Culture needs to expand for that (barring a city help -- like the shared wheat helping Salamanca before culture expansion).

OK, the new worker goes to the shared wheat square. Workers should always do the "best" squares first. "Best" is defined as the one most likely to be worked and worth the effort. Bonus squares first, then usually bonus grass and then evaluate. The shared nature of this wheat means it will basically always be worked, so it gets priority over the other wheat square.

Warrior from Salamanca gets a hint of the and tries to protect the naked worker from the Russian spear that appeared. He sees a road and forgets it's across a river and that he can only move one.

North scout heads to east coast and will explore it southwards. The SW scout heads down the west coast -- he sees a narrow land bridge to the west and will explore it excitedly. The SE scout has the coast and a river in view and will continue south.

No workers for sale.

(4) 3300 - The worker on the wheat starts irrigating it.

Russian border seen in the south -- they're not very far away at all. That scout is assigned the job of getting the lay of the Russian land while not impinging on their border. The land bridge is very nice. It's got a cow on it and everything. Lots of canal city opportunities. But it's quite a ways away from home and closer to Moscow than to us. Northern scout continues southward journey.

The warrior saw that the spearman stayed in the mountains -- just scouting apparently. The odds of the AI declaring war THIS early was pretty slim and we weren't ready for it, so this warrior's first move was sub-optimal. He's now sent towards NF, as it will need MP soon and Salamanca will complete its second warrior soon. He moves east (still shadowing spearman a bit, too -- a very minor "show of strength" if you will).

No Russian worker for sale.

(5) 3250 - Before I forget, I move Salamanca from wheat to grass to complete its warrior this turn. It will still grow in one turn, as calculations from turn 3 suggested. NF worker is put on the wheat from the hill (I left it on the hill to get a few shields into the temple faster). Wasting that kind of food early in the game shouldn't be done.

Scouts scout -- I am crossing the land bridge and will explore over there. I considered leaving the scout fortified at a chokepoint to prevent Russia from getting across, but I really want to see the other side. If I had a spare scout, I'd do it. But right now...knowledge is too important.

Between turns, Salamanca completes its warrior. Now what? Everything has something to recommend/count against it.

Temple? Helps with happiness. Culture is often helpful (trading, not getting war declared, borders). But it doesn't help growth near-term or even mid-term. It can wait, so it will have to.
Wonder? OK, they're nice but we can't afford that kind of commitment. No way.
Warrior? Helps with happiness and military size. Only 2 turns now. Would still be "free" but has no real clear immediate purpose. Doesn't help with immediate growth. Rejected.
Worker? Nah, that's what NF is there for.
Settler? Very good option. We can crank it out pretty fast, still get some food and start settling some of the nice lands around us. Will knock us back down to small, though. Extremely close.
Granary? Rather expensive but can pay for itself given time. We still have plenty of two-food areas around to keep growth happening while we build this and then we can crank settlers at a much higher rate. This is contrasted with the fact that we get a later start and might miss out on a prime city site or two. I decide it's worth the risk, as this is only a shadow of the real game and go with this option (had we not gotten NF, this would have been a no-brainer settler choice).

(6) 3200 - Warrior in Salamanca fortifies as MP and so the AI doesn't think our capital is undefended any longer. Other warrior moves towards NF.

Across the land bridge, we see a Chinese warrior. "Hello, there, Mao! How are you? You have Masonry and Bronze Working we don't? Hmm...what'll they cost? Masonry for various body parts? And Bronze Working for a mere 43 gold? Hmm... Let me check with Cathy." "Cathy, can you match 43 gold for BW? No. And no workers? OK." "Mao, I think I can spring for BW since I can still buy a worker with the left-over cash. Pleasure doing business with you." (Evaluations of this will come later.)

Sala reclaims the shared wheat square and NF returns to hills (this helps gets the shields NF needs better and helps keep NF from growing out of control. Sala is a bit more important at this point). Other scouts continue their work.

Off-turn, the mine by Sala finishes (as I knew it would) and the time to granary drops to 12 turns -- a fair wait but not too unbearable.

(7) 3150 - Warrior finally reaches Niagara Falls. I can drop luxury tax rate to 10%. Looking at NF, I see I can whip a temple in two turns (need 3 shields). Normally, I would abhor whipping with the new 20-shield max -- especially this close to our capital. In this case, I think it's worth it because NF grows SO fast, has so few shields at its disposal, the temple will self-cure the whipping unhappiness, and its our first culture item there so it will cause borders to expand, giving us more shields at our disposal. We can barely scrounge 10 shields -- 30 will take a long time. I plan on that.

Scouts continue their roles -- the east coast around our lands, the Russian view, and exploring the new lands to the west.

Checking diplo, nobody has workers. China now has Alphabet and Masonry. There are almost assuredly two more civs over there that they're trading with. We want to meet them ASAP to get our costs for purchase/research lowered. That trading loop is one we want to be a part of. Ideally, we could keep Russia out of it, but I'm not holding my breath, as they're expansionist.

Interturn, the irrigation completes.

(8) 3100 - Warrior in NF fortifies. His role is now MP (happiness) since we have scouts for exploration. The worker on the wheat starts a road, perforce. Scouts scout. Russia has a nice start, with a wheat and furs in range of their capital. Such is life -- ours wasn't bad. And the settler from the GH made it better, in its way.

MM (more micromanagement) of cities. NF retakes the irrigated wheat, so it can grow in one turn. That means it will need 20 shields for its temple next turn. I can find out if 20 means 20 or if it means 19. This move also helps NF grow in one turn instead of two, with no food waste. Sala debates what to do with its citizen and puts it on the forest to get the granary faster. Yes, this slows growth, but it's better to finish the granary before growing. The other options were a 1/1/1 hill and a 2/0/1 grass by the river. Forest for now.

Nothing good for sale.

(9) 3050 - Scouts are bored. They keep doing their stuff. Russia has nice lands to the south, so maybe they'll expand that way and leave us alone. I wouldn't count on it, though. Tiny peninsula SE of our capital.

The temple whips in NF. It does give 20 shields for one citizen. There's a happiness problem, so lux taxes go back to 20% -- probably for only one turn because once the temple finishes, it will make the people happy itself.

What to do with the citizens? I leave the Sala citizen on the forest for a bit, straining to get the granary before it grows (if you grow before the granary, the food drops to zero, so you can actually have more food by waiting to grow and getting the granary faster). That means NF keeps both wheat.

On diplo front, Russia now has two cities.

Interturn road and temple complete. Settler ordered from NF.

(10) 3000 - Sala worker moves one north to the grass there. I would've liked to get him to the hill but that's a two-turn trek and I HATE wasting worker turns, so he'll at least road across the river here before making his next decision.

Our western scout climbs a mountain and sees a warrior dressed all in grey. "Hey, you, there!" he shouts. "Who's your leader?" "Ghandi!" they reply. India has alphabet we don't and we have nothing that they don't. Alphabet costs 52 gold. Finally thinking, I wait. We don't need it right this second and the price might well drop if we can find another civ who has the alphabet. No workers here either.

China has a second city. Neither Mao nor Cathy has a worker for me.

And I forgot to check lux tax rate.

Arathorn

Save file:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-shadow-Arathorn-3000bc.zip

 

[BrianJ]

Originally posted by LKendter



Well I suspect you will get a weed on this one

Well sure, But I'm hoping for some detailed indication of what I should have done.. this in particular is one of my weaker aspects of play..

 

[Arathorn]

- Slow down! Wait for me to post an "all clear" or a "next round -- play 'til such-and-such-a-year" message or something, please! I was not done commenting on the first set of turns yet. I realize I didn't make this particularly clear, so let this serve as a warning. Next player to forge ahead without some kind of say-so gets a

- Sirian, I set-up this game to be continents, so I knew we would have company. I think it's most indicative of a "standard" set-up. And even one neighbor is enough to provide a lot of techs -- if only at the end of a With only one AI, I have absolutely zero fear of war (even against immortals). With two or more, there are trade options open. I don't think it's as much a risk as you think. With that said, there is certainly NOT one "perfect right" way to win/play at the high levels. Some things simply don't work, but there are lots of things that do. (I also did some experimenting with 1.21f on the "Screw You" factor and found it much reduced with a couple contacts.)

- More first turn comments:
* Brian J, you did by far the least exploring. And your ending entertainer in Salamanca meant it was NEVER going to expand to size three -- certainly not before the settler was done in 6 turns. Even high food, it would take at least 10 turns. A bit of beating a dead horse here, I realize. (Just additional comments in my savegame perusal -- I'm very glad to have you aboard.)
* Arizona_Steve, you played one less turn than the rest of us. To make things nice the "inherited" turn (4000 BC in this case), is always counted as turn 0.
* ChrTh, you had the best exploration/fog-busting operations of the shadow turns -- kudos.

- Brian J, I didn't see your shadow turn. Please follow the naming conventions at the beginning of this thread or it will get ignored. This game is quite an investment of my time anyway and I'm just not gonna spend time tracking down savegames. Following the naming conventions, I can see 'em all quickly and download in a few seconds. Call me an impertinent youngster (I'm only 29) if you'd like, but I'm gonna try to be firm on this point.

-charliehoke is still out. He's the only one who hasn't played until 3000 bc. I will try to review all the turns tonight and post tomorrow sometime. NO going on until that is done -- and possibly some discussion.

- Lee, the reason I wanted you in the game is because you run/participate in so many games, I'd like to see your advice improve a bit. That, and as your gameplay improves, I'll see and learn (more) things from your games myself! See, I'm just as selfish as ChrTh on that point.

- Lee, too bad about the computer. You're only required to do the one turn per rotation, though, so no worries about this one. Hope you can keep reading/posting/learning and that you're back in full operation by the time your turn comes around.

Arathorn

 

[BrianJ]

- Brian J, I didn't see your shadow turn. Please follow the naming conventions at the beginning of this thread or it will get ignored. This game is quite an investment of my time anyway and I'm just not gonna spend time tracking down savegames. Following the naming conventions, I can see 'em all quickly and download in a few seconds. Call me an impertinent youngster (I'm only 29) if you'd like, but I'm gonna try to be firm on this point.

Arathorn, I'm more than happy to oblige, and anything I can do to make your very tough job easier I will do.

However, you made comments based on my save game, and then as quoted above you didn't see it? I'm a little here..

Which save game are you missing? I've played 2 shadow turns and thought I uploaded both.

You already made the point of not attaching the save directly. I did this on the first shadow but uploaded properly on the second. I'l check after posting this message but I'm pretty sure both are there. If not I will attach the missing one for you.

I don't think you've even started reading the second shadow turns yet, but if you can't find that one, the link is at the bottom of the post . The actual save game is named correctly I believe.


EDIT: Well almost, forgot about 'lotr3' in the name for some reason. Sorry, I dont want to clutter the server by uploading a third time. I'll use the correct naming convention next time, but this one stands.. Sorry Arathorn, I'll have to take my lumps on this one.

 

[BrianJ]

- More first turn comments:
* Brian J, you did by far the least exploring. And your ending entertainer in Salamanca meant it was NEVER going to expand to size three -- certainly not before the settler was done in 6 turns. Even high food, it would take at least 10 turns. A bit of beating a dead horse here, I realize. (Just additional comments in my savegame perusal -- I'm very glad to have you aboard.)

Arathorn.. no disrespect to the teacher intended, but.. I didn't have any entertainers on my FIRST turn. That was my second (in NF).

CORRECTION: Just checked again, WTH.. there IS an entertainer there? Don't know how it got there.. I dont remember creating it.

Sorry for the confusion. Must have been because we all jumped the gun there.

Also, you said I did the least exploring? Again, did you mean first or second turn? My extremely weedy first turn would have had less exploring yes, due to my failure to build scouts.. That was already covered.

My second save is clearer and now includes SHADOW in the name

Also next time I'll try to remember to zip the save..

 

[Arathorn]

Weed vs. carelessness
I suppose I should make this distinction now -- to help clarify in my own mind, too. For me, I'm defining weed ( ) as when a conscious effort is made to do something which is not only sub-optimal but is actually detrimental. This includes things like making entertainers when unnecessary, changing build orders poorly, working poor squares with workers, going out of your way to make a deal worse, etc. These are the ones that cause a lot of and frustration. Carelessness, on the other hand, is when something that is good is missed or something bad is allowed to happen. This includes such activities as not buying workers early, not catching an incipient revolt, not moving the AI's choice of citizen assignment, science rate problems, etc. Careless mistakes can often be just as deadly as weedy decisions, but they're harder to spot and more a function of playstyle.

Preventing carelessness
Like most things, it's magnified in the early game. For the first ~50 turns, I have an end-of-turn routine that I go through to make sure I don't miss things. Yes, I do this at the end of every turn for the first several turns. I find it fun (and I *know* it's helpful for winning). Anyway, I first check all cities for citizen assignments (using right arrow to get them more quickly -- much faster than exiting each city and entering a new city). I then F1 and check happiness (once I get beyond a page's worth of cities, I often stop checking this) and try to remember to check science rate. This sometimes causes a reevaluation of the citizen decisions. I then F2 and go through each opposing civ to see what they have for sale (this is tedious -- I wish I could see what they had without so many clicks -- even a right-arrow equivalent to cycle through other leaders would be helpful). I also do this process (without the F2 necessarily) through every turn of the GA. And some cities need constant watching (where good tiles are shared, for instance). In SGs, I also (try to) do this review at least before my first turn and after my last turn.

Science
There are two optimal times to get a tech -- first and last. If you're the first, you can broker it or use it to your advantage or both. This is good. If you're last, it's dirt cheap. This saves tons of commerce for other tasks. Being in the middle doesn't help much with costs and limits the benefit of early discovery -- even worse is wasting commerce points "overresearching" something (by which I mean spending more commerce than it costs when you discover it -- the infamous one gold purchases). My personal experience in high-level games is that I'm basically never the first to techs, so I've gotten very comfortable being last. Thus, my minimum science opening. I also have bad luck with AI civs being able to afford a tech until at least the middle ages.

Citizen vs. worker
I've been confused many times by people using worker to mean both the unit on the screen who does the improving of the land and the people in the city who work the land to get food/shields/commerce. Effective immediately, I am calling the latter "citizens" and will try to refer to all city denizens as citizens. I encourage others to do the same to minimize confusion.

Grading
When I was teaching college, I was considered a harsh grader. I'm even worse in this context. "C" really doesn't mean average -- it means a solid turn with either no mistakes and little to recommend it or where good moves are approximately equal to bad. This is about what I would expect of a "good" AI -- e.g. one I could probably explain but could never hope to program. Note: This "imaginary" AI is better than Civ3's AI, which is still pretty darn good, so take that definition with a grain of salt.... Nothing personal is intended (indeed, one of the reasons I do self-assessments is to see where I would grade myself and to let you see that very high grades are hard to get, indeed). I expect a C to beat monarch and lose narrowly to emperor.

Interturn
When a warrior (or whatever) completes after the 3350 BC turn but before the start of the 3300 BC turn, is that reported as 3350 or 3300? I, personally, tend to report it as 3350, but I'm pretty sure others do otherwise. Reporting it as 3350-3300 would be clear, as would some kind of Interturn label. There's also interturn diplomacy that sometimes happens. To make things clearer, if we could all adopt labeling Interturn as Interturn or IT or I or with both years, I'd appreciate it.

Arathorn

 

[Arathorn]

Pre-turn: Good catch on my careless science rate -- that'll save a few gold over time -- probably at least 10 gold during these 10 turns. That's 1/4 of a tech -- major stuff.

Right call waiting on the tech purchase. We don't NEED BW at this point -- it won't change what we're doing, so we can afford to wait.

I would call the lack of catching the AI's citizen choice carelessness, not :weed: but yeah, it's suboptimal.

Very good call on using the first warrior as MP in NF. And building a second warrior is a good use of Salamanca's resources. But, building a worker in Salamanca is a waste of its shields and doesn't use NF's food glut properly. This is an example of one mistake cascading to another. I'll explain....

NF has the highest food output -- with always one floodplain wheat, sometimes a second floodplain wheat and lots of floodplain which can produce three food, even in despotism. NF will, for the foreseeable future, have food (and population) but will lack for shields. Your decision to do a slow temple build there means that it couldn't produce a worker. But we needed a second worker, so Salamanca got saddled with that job, which it could do quickly (and recover from not too slowly), but it slowed down the settler and it just builds on itself. Changing NF to a worker immediately would've gotten the worker out earlier and freed Salamanca for higher shield duty.

Leaving NF on temple isn't necessarily bad, as one is needed there. But I would've whipped that sucker out as soon as I could do so for one citizen. Now, normally, whipping is gonna be bad with the new 20-shield max, but the EXTREME growth potential of NF and its severe shield lack makes it (probably) worth it in this case. Yes, whipping the temple hurts in lux tax for a bit, but that's a minor blip (one turn high and then it can be turned back down as the finished temple helps with happiness). In your game, NF is stuck building a slow temple, growing with less-than optimal speed, because the worker comes from elsewhere. Changing the temple to a settler can be done at any time with no loss (since we're religious), and that might be the best option, were this game continuing.

The worker on the hill is probably doing the best thing -- mining. You're on the shared hill, so the odds are quite high that it will be being worked every turn. The mine only gives one shield in despotism, but that's worth something -- especially for NF. It will need to be roaded, too. And good rationale behind the move.

Last worker move, I give a to, too -- it's thinking ahead, it's moving to a square that will be used soon -- for a variety of purposes.

However, there is a minor problem in Salamanca. Let's look at its production....

Only one food is needed for growth, yet there's an excess of 4. Move that citizen from the wheat to the two-shield grass and save some time on the settler. Were NF not one turn from growing, too, it could use that wheat for one turn. But those two shields should get the settler one turn earlier, which again institutes a chain of effects, this time in a positive direction.

Your scouting gets a call as you had anticipated. You filled in all the holes near our capital, which has value, but only in a limited sense. Yes, we know there are no goodie huts near us, but the Russians passing through probably gave us that information already. By staying close to home, you lessened the number of squares of fog you could bust, which lessens the chance of finding something good. Straying further from home also increases the chances of meeting another civ, which is pretty much only positive in "normal" games. OTOH, your southern scout near Russia got the furthest of anybody's. As for the territory violation, yeah, it's not good, but the AI is pretty forgiving about non-military units infringing on their territory. Certainly not a major concern -- it's something we want to try to avoid when feasible but not really much negative overall.

Note: Were the scouting troops warriors, there can be more advantage to being near home, as warriors also serve as barb-beaters and can MP if need be. These are scouts and they should be away from home scouting as much as possible. The less fog we have, the more our map will be worth, when that time comes.

Overall:
- 2 (first warrior to NF for MP, science rate catch)
- 2 (NF builds, Salamanca end problem)
- 1 (scouting pattern)

Overall grade: C+

Arathorn

 

[Arathorn]

OK, you asked for the wrath of Arathorn. Here it comes, for what it's worth. Changing the build in NF was probably a good idea. But what you changed it to makes no sense. NF's biggest strength is its food output and its biggest weakness is its shield output. We want to accentuate the positive as much as possible, while minimizing the weakness. At this point, only about three things make sense to build in NF -- worker, settler, temple. Both worker and settler require pop (~= food) and thus are good choices. Temple is good to get more squares into range and to help with happiness. Order probably matters some, but it's a bit more complicated than I can figure in a few minutes to know what is best, so I'm willing to call it close enough to not matter. But ONLY those three things make sense in NF -- and a granary eventually, but getting 60 shields there is going to be very problematic. The warrior could have been completed in Salamanca much faster and still served as MP in NF while NF did what made sense for it. Those 10 shields in NF are nearly priceless (at least a 5 turn investment, possibly as much as 7 or 8 turns), whereas 10 shields in Salamanca is just two or three turns. And NF's long-term potential is not helped at all, unlike getting a worker or a temple done ASAP would've done. Definitely on what to change to. I say again, though, that changing is not bad.

Why did you buy Warrior Code when you did? Could it have waited? Almost assuredly, as they're unlikely to declare immediately. Can we find someone else who was WC and make our price cheaper? If it can wait, it probably should. In this case, we weren't going to be immediately building archers/barracks, so why buy now, when it might be cheaper 15 turns from now, when we actually need/want it? I understand the temptation to "do something now because I can", but it's best to think and evaluate long-term before acting.

I fully understand and appreciate the Russian paranoia. It's good to note such movements and to track them as much as possible.

Settler in 3050 in Salamanca is the earliest settler, but it comes at some cost. Still, a good choice and helps, somewhat, alleviate the earlier decision in NF -- in this case, the domino effect was somewhat positive as you had the 2 MP in place slightly earlier than the rest of us did.

Granary next? I approve. It's not the only good choice, but certainly a solid one.

Your scouting was generally solid. Your east-coast scout didn't get quite as far as mine did, but further than Lee's. You noticed and crossed the land bridge, which is definitely good. The Russian scout is quite behind -- did he scout the jungle first? More knowledge of enemy and LOTS of squares is probably more important than a few close at home (we'll need barb-busters soon and they'll explore that land).

Another MAJOR in NF, though. You stopped its growth -- for a measely one commerce. You say "Niagra Falls is due to grow next turn and will riot if allowed to do so." Not true -- it will only riot if it grows and you do nothing. You can up the luxury tax (costing commerce). Or if commerce is low, that poor citizen can be made into a taxman, getting the same benefit of extra commerce while having more population when needed for workers/settlers/later growth. In our case, he could become our lone beaker and science rate could go down to zero. Since NF has SO MUCH food, it can continue to grow even with the new population. At pop 5, one citizen can be an entertainer and it's another working citizen to encourage things to grow more. Stopping growth simply to stop growth is always a bad decision. Occasional no-growth to get shields or to finish a granary before growing or to save a ton of commerce can be done, but, in general, growth is king.

You also never adjusted the science rate down, to keep it at as close to one beaker as possible. This cost us at least 10 gold, which may not seem like much but which is quite a bit early in the game -- a couple such things and we can get an extra tech.

Another minor point is that your final worker move was kind of forced by the lack of an additional worker, but in general it's bad to have a worker "wasting" a turn -- he should either be doing something where he stands or ending in a square so that he can do that next turn.

Overall:
- 1 (early settler)
- 1 (final worker move)
- 4 (NF target, buying WC, NF stopped growth, science rate)

Overall grade: D

Arathorn

 

[Arathorn]

This is gonna be brief, as I make some comments in my turn about what was wise/unwise. I think about Civ3 a fair bit, though, and I'm gonna see what a bit of perspective brings to my attention.

All the other shadows (not sure about Architect) missed the micromanage of Salamanca in 3400 BC to get the warrior one turn earlier. This is HUGE! The one turn earlier gives us freedom to get lots of other things one turn earlier, which snowballs into settling earlier and so on and so forth. Early on, it's pretty important to manage shields carefully. That's two shields and one turn essentially wasted across the other turns.

First warrior produced in Salamanca should've headed directly for NF. If the spear attacked our worker, we were hosed anyway, so the "show of strength" was not even a feint. Cost a couple gold there (in lux tax). Also, the science rate cost a couple gold. Those things add up. That's important to watch.

A granary in Salamanca? Yeah, it has pretty high food growth potential, but it's ultimate role may well depend on its shield output. A lot of food can be saved, but with NF doing a temple, we'll have no third city for a LONG time at this rate. Sala can crank out one settler to get the luxuries between us and Russia before they can, which might not be the case waiting. In this case, a settler couldn't healthily wait. He was needed ASAP, so this is .

Buying BW from Mao was as weedy as buying WC from him. It didn't change anything I did, so having BW this early was a waste. More contact will make the cost go down and there was no need to hurry. Definite in the air.

The temple whip -- I'll comment on more fully on Architect's turn. Suffice it to say, I agree.

Slowing growth to get the granary faster? Well, at least all the good squares were fully in use, so it's not too horrible. And NF is growing at max rate, so not too weedy.

Final worker move slightly questionable, as the road south for the city might've helped. Actually, the time for the settler to arrive is identical without it and roading the mountain will be the long bottleneck for connection anyway. Not too bad a choice -- especially in conjunction with the too-late-to-stop-now granary.

Scouting a plus here -- especially down the east coast. I had the peninsula down S of NF all mapped by end-turn. Nobody else was particularly close. Lee got further south of Russia than I but violated their sanctity and didn't cross the land-bridge.

Overall:
- 5 (NF worker change, micro Sala for growth/warrior in 3400 and on-going, diplo checking, scout pattern, temple whip)
- 0 ()
- 3 (granary before settler, buying WC, sci rate/warrior moves)

Overall grade: B+

Arathorn

 

[Arathorn]

The exploration and entertainer comments were from your first set of turns -- not from the second. I have no clue about your second set of exploration.

Yeah, letting a city riot is bad. See my general comments on my general approach to prevent that.

The warrior/warrior/settler builds in Salamanca would be my first, in retrospect, choice, so no there.

It also sounds like you're a bit behind the exploration curve.

We'll get it all worked out next time...

Arathorn

 

[Arizona_Steve]

Inherited turn:
Science slider is at 20% - I lower it to 10%, which makes no difference to the time taken to research mysticism, yet gives us an extra gold per turn. No change to the luxury slider at 50%, although this will need to be reviewed when the temple completes this turn.
Check China and Russia for any workers on sale. None available, although I notice that we have one in our capital.
Salamanca produces a settler and starts a warrior. My reasoning is that there are 10 turns before the city will grow from 2 to 3 again, and a settler can be produced in 6 turns. Each warrior will take 2 turns to train, so we can produce two of these for military police in Niagra Falls before switching to another settler.
I zoom to Salamanca and confirm that both the shielded grasslands are being worked by the 2 citizens at Salamanca.
Niagra Falls completes it's rushed temple. Another worker would take 10 turns, so I switch production to worker - I will review the situation once the borders expand, with a view to possibly changing to settler.

(1) 2590BC
Scout #1 (next to Niagra Falls) is sent to check out the peninsula to the South of Niagra Falls. He takes two step South.
The two Chinese workers begin mining the hill to the East of Salamanca. This hill, when mined can be used to boost production in either Salamanca or Niagra Falls.
The Iroquois worker in Salamanca is moved East onto the hill to start building a road to connect our two cities next turn.
The settler in Salamanca crosses the river on his way to form a city near the spices.
The second Iroquois worker (on the irrigated wheat next to Niagra Falls) is sent towards the other wheat to irrigate and road it. No matter what, he's going to take two moves to get there, as the trek involves a river crossing to get to Niagra Falls.
Scout #2 encounters the Indians. Their leader, Ghandi, has two techs for sale, Bronze Working and Alphabet. We have Warrior Code and Pottery. Since we don't have any barracks yet (and Lee would SCREAM if I don't build veteran spearmen), I decline any sales, as their offer for Alphabet is Warrior Code, Pottery, 45 gold and 3 gold per turn! Sheesh. The infamous Sirian "Screw the player" factor in action, I guess.
Scout #3 (next to the Russian borders) moves to the grassland inside the border, then onto the mountain just outside.
Before hitting the space bar, I go to the Domestic Advisor screen and cut Luxuries from 50% to 20%. Now making 7 gold per turn (up from 3).
No workers for sale.
A spearman wanders near scout #1 from the East. I wonder if there is a land bridge over there.

(2) 2900BC
Scout #1 moves onto the mountain via the plains, and finds no land bridge.
The iroquois worker on the hill begins a road while the two chinese workers continue to mine.
Our settler takes a hike in the mountains.
Iroquois worker #2 reaches the second wheat.
Scout #2 moves around the India borders, attempting to scout "around the back" via the grasslands as opposed to the jungle.
Scout #3 hikes the mountains to the South of Russia. There are no opportunities for two-square moves where no new ground is uncovered.
Recheck advisors. Niagra falls about to go into disorder so luxuries up to 30% - income drops to 5 gold per turn.
India has acquired Masonry since I looked last turn. Our military advisor scares me by telling me the Indian military has the warrior
No workers for sale.
Salamanca trains the first of two warriors. Second one started.

(3) 2850BC
Warrior from Salamanca is GOTO'd to Niagra Falls.
I decide to road the wheat rather than irrigate it. I already feel that the current growth rate is quick enough as we have a worker due there in 3 turns, and the population will grow in 3 turns. I will irrigate as soon as the road is completed though.
Settler hikes South East onto the next lofty peak.
Scout #1 heads towards Russia.
Scout #2 reaches the grasslands to the back of India, but the Indian borders continue too far. Not wanting to piss off Ghandi, he will head back and explore the jungles to the South.
A Russian settler and a barbarian hut have appeared in view of scout #3. I will move the scout away, and hopefully the Russian settler will get some
No workers for sale.

(4) 2800BC
Scout #3 runs into a barbarian warrior. He is killed on their turn
Salamanca builds the second warrior and starts a settler.
Culture borders expand at Niagra Falls. The expansion brings one plains, one mountain and several desert and flood plain squares into our borders.

(5) 2750BC
Warrior at Salamanca is GOTO'd to Niagra Falls, as this is where the growth is.
First warrior from Salamanca reaches Niagra Falls. As we have military police there, I change the worker that will be produced at Niagra Falls next turn to a settler. The two warriors sent from Salamanca will function as military police and allow further growth at Niagra Falls while the settler is trained.
Our spice settler is in position and ready to plop next turn.
Luxuries down to 10% for 1 turn (due to warrior in Niagra Falls). This will need to be raised next turn as the city will grow.
No workers for sale. The other civs are zipping way ahead in tech (China is five techs ahead of us).
The Russians found Kiev two squares away from the barbarian hut

(6) 2710BC
Grand River is founded next to the spices. The position selected will maximize early production and growth (fewer mountains) once a temple is in place, in addition to denying the Russians access to both spices. Only problem is that it's not on a river.
Wheat street is completed. Irrigation begins.
Scout #1 moves into the mountains on his way to continue where scout #3 left off.
Scout #2 starts exploring the Indian jungles.
No workers for sale.
Luxuries up to 30% - otherwise New River will go into disorder.
Even with the hill and the plains square being worked, it will still take 10 turns before the settler is trained at New River. Worker priority is to get those squares mined.

(7) 2670BC
More movement of scouts.
Still no workers for sale.
Second warrior arrives at Niagra Falls - luxuries down to 10%.
Road between Salamanca and Niagra Falls completed.

(8) 2630BC
Worker is moved onto hill across the river to begin mining next turn.
More movement of scouts.
Somebody - Please move a worker into your capital... Please... Pretty Please...

(9) 2590BC
Mining of second hill commences.
More movement of scouts.
No workers for sale.
Irrigation completed at Niagra Falls.

(10) 2550BC
The river at Niagra Falls is killing us. It takes three moves to get the worker from the wheat to the plains. Probably but it IS the best production square we have other than the hills being mined.
Luxuries up to 30% as Niagra Falls has grown to size 5, and about to go into disorder.
No workers for sale. Guess I won't get any brownie points from Arathorn for buying workers


File: lotr3-shadow-Arizona_Steve-2550BC.zip

 

[BrianJ]

Well, Steve called them Spices, I called them Dyes, but they are, in fact, Silk..

 

[LKendter]

(0) 3000 BC (I) - Salamanca starts warrior - I want at least a token unit in the new city.
NF has one purpose to me - starts a settler.

(1) 2950 BC - nf scout s, se
workers on hill - start mining
wheat worker - heading toward other wheat
India scout - n
russia scout - se, s
India appears on the Diplomacy screen!
China knows CB already - so I prefer that we do something with it.
Trade Russia CB to gain Bronze Working and $4.
India won't trade Alphabet.

(2) 2900 BC - worker to to wheat, flood plains
russia scout - w (I want to define that coast line)
India scout - ne, n
nf scout - s, w
Science back to 10% (? did I miss last time?)
I spot a Russian settler moving.

2900 BC (I) - Salamanca orders another Warrior - this version doens't have nf warrior.

(3) 2850 BC - Warrior to nf.
Food in nf is absurd - road for nf worth more.
nf scout - sw, w (bad key hit - meant w,w)
India scout - nw, n
Russia scout - s

(4) 2800 BC -
Russia scout - sw
nf scout - w,w
India scout s, se - can't explore any futher due to culture borders
China now 3 techs ahead of us.

2800 BC (I) - Salamanca order a Granary - we need city growth.

(5) 2750 BC - Grand River is formed. Now we see how Arathon argues with city placements.
I prefer the current location on the river, even though it creates 2 1 food ocean squares long term.
A warrior is already available for the city, so I order a temple.
nf scout - sw, I can't avoid several turns of slogging through the jungle.
India scout - s, sw
russia scout - plains spotted so s, w
first CONTACT - Egypt, I cost all $56 in our treasury, but I gain 2 workers from them.
The 10% science rate paid off
Send another to the hill.
The 2nd goes to help the exist working between Salamanca and Grand River.

(6) 2710 BC - 2 workers now mining the next Salamanca square.
The Niagra MP arrived just in time to avoid a luxury increase.
Irragate the other fpwheat

India scout - s, se
Russia scout - nw to confirm coastline.
nf scout - continues south.

(7) 2670 BC - I spot Kiev - started in a HORRID position.
Russia scout - w, s
India scout - s, s (Stumble onto a barb camp, scratch 1 scout)
nf scout - s

(8) 2630 BC - First barb spotted by Salamanca. We will need to add spearman soon.
nf scout - s
Russia scout - n, nw

(9) 2590 BC -
nf scout - s, s
russia scout - w, w
China has a 4 tech lead.

(10) 2550 BC - 2 workers move to mountain next to gr - we need to connect the silks to our road net.
nf scout - sw
russia scout - w, nw

Summary - Not much of anything.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-lkendter-shadow-2550_BC.zip

 

[Arathorn]

(0) 3000 - Move Sala citizen from forest to anywhere with a commerce. Shields/food wasted so we might as well get the commerce.

Decrease science rate to 10%.

Interturn: Sala finishes settler and starts warrior. NF finishes temple and starts settler. Road in irrigated wheat finished.

(1) 2950 - E scout south two. W scout north to mountain -- contact ASAP and learn before doing other things. It's Ghandi with BW and Alphabet and lacking Pottery and Warrior Code. No *good* deals, but this is dicey, as we're not the only suppliers of Pottery and Warrior Code. If we don't act now, we might lose our options. I delay this decision until EOT.

Both workers on the hill begin to mine -- will road next -- but the extra shields are nearly paramount at this point. Worker in Salamanca ... well, he moves west into the forest, but rather unhappily. What was his purpose where he was? Settler moves south. There are enough "good" tiles down by the spices to make it too tempting for me to pass up. Beat Russia, there, too. Wheat worker moves NE, will road and move again and then return to irrigate, I believe -- depending on situation.

Lux rate drops clear down to 20%. Whew. That saves some gpt.

MM decision. Put NF on both food and let it grow this turn and leave Salamanca on shields to get warrior in two turns -- rather have Sala grow, too, but 3/3/5 kinda wastes a turn and what does NF do in the meantime? It can go shields then medium food and grow one turn later. On second thought, I like that better -- gets Sala back up to speed faster. Actually, NF on food first then shields, just as precaution against hill mine finishing early. So, Sala will go 5/3/3 with shields and grow when it can.

China can provide both Pottery and Warrior Code to India, so it's a use-it-or-lose-it opportunity. What can wait should, what can't wait, shouldn't. BW also available from Russia (hence cheaper), so let's try for Alphabet first. Hmm...Alphabet costs Pottery, WC, 3 gpt, and 21 gold. OUCH! Cost will have to go down. BW costs WC and Pottery and gets us 3 gold besides. Not the deal I wanted, but waiting might prove fatal. I go the safe route and take this deal.

(2) 2900 - East scout finishes exploration of the peninsula, ending on the mountain. West scout goes NE, N looking for flat lands to pass quickly. South scout goes SE to mountain as all moves are one and done -- staying out of Russian space.

Worker in forest starts road -- we might use this square for shields and it will help speed a settler west to the nice lands over there. Worker on flood plain begins irrigating (changing my mind), because his square will probably be used for a long time -- and he can irrigate and road before the hill is mined. There's a citizen on this square right now, since the wheat is in Sala hands.

Settler goes SW S to try to bust a bit of fog and because it doesn't delay him at all.

NF citizen moves to hill, since we will still grow in one turn and this way we get one extra shield a turn earlier. Sala citizens stay put.

India now has Masonry and Alphabet that we don't.

Interturn see a Russian settler zip along the roads to near our scout.

(3) 2850 - Russian scout goes SE to see, to block, and to get near "fast lands". E scout goes N, W to maximize speed of getting to new areas. W scout enters Indian lands (Ghandi is pacifist and won't declare war over a scout -- very few AIs will) by going W and sees no way through at all! He slinks S one to a hilltop.

Settler goes SE. I hate wasting the only forest in the area, but the spices are too nice to pass up. The forest is on the river, wastes no squares empty, and leaves a nice second city area east of it.

Sala citizen needs moving. I can tell before even looking at the city -- anytime there's two turns left to build, CHECK! Sala from food to shields, warrior finishes in one turn. NF citizen then moves to shared wheat, from a simple flood plain, where the AI placed it. While there, I notice NF people unhappy. Why didn't I mobilize the warrior in Salamanca earlier? Wake him and send him towards NF! (NE first to keep barbs from popping too close -- use sight where available).

Lux tax raised to 30% as short-term solution.

Russia now has Masonry, too. That means the cost is down, but with no immediate need, I wait.

Russian spear near undefended NF has me nervous, too. He can beat the warrior there. YOUCH!

Interturn, apologize to Ghandi, intending to actually move our "troops" out ASAP. Russian spear still just watching - that's good.

Salamanca finishes warrior, starts Granary, due in 12. Settler in 6 was a close option. Can finish deciding later easily enough. A third warrior also an option -- for new city and cities to follow after that.

(4) 2800 - New warrior fortifies in Salamanca. Other warrior moves east towards NF.

E scout goes W W to join settler momentarily. S scout goes SS to bust as much fog as possible. W scout poorly goes S out of Indian territory and into jungle.

Settler moves SE onto forest.

China has the Wheel. Russia has no gold -- they've apparently met someone.

Put Salamanca on high food because it needs it more and because it can handle the happiness as it's not already growing weedlike. NF settles for floodplain being worked -- and stays on the hill as its only other shield source. But, shoot! That makes NF unhappy. OK, raise lux tax back to 40% and lose 2gpt. Kinda sucks but it's only for two turns.

Interturn -- LOVELY! A nice barb warrior by our new city site and the scout near there. Where are the Russians to remove such threats? Do we have a warrior to spare?

(5) 2750 - Warrior reaches NF.

Middle scout flees S, SW to not be adjacent to barb warrior. Russian scout nearby -- hopefully he'll be the one to die. Mobilize the Salamanca warrior? Yep, he moves one south. (Intention is to wait until the barb warrior reaches level ground and then attack -- else the barb would probably pillage.)

Grand River built near the spices. Warrior sounds like a good option here. One primo square (bonus grass on river) and one nice square (bonus grass off river) add to some other grasslands on the river. Growth to size 5 is easy and nice foodwise. Cool.

W scout goes W. S scout goes S, SE to see what he can from hilltop -- and that's not a whole lot.

CB only will have limited time value to Russia. Let's deal it now. And get what we can. Masonry's been fully bartered to our known neighbors. CB + 31 gold nets us Masonry. That's ~9 gold value for CB. Wish it was more, but it's not. I pull the trigger.

Sala still needs the wheat to grow this turn -- so I leave it there. In Sala, it pays for itself as the new citizen will work this turn. But NF doesn't get the turn of irrigated wheat to grow. NF citizen put back on floodplain being worked, with a stern reprimand.

MP means we can drop lux tax to 20%, which we do.

Interturn, the Russian scout flees first. The barb warrior moves towards undefended Grand River. Irrigation of flood plain by NF completes.

(6) 2710 - Warrior returns to Salamanca -- not much he can do. Warrior in NF fortifies. Worker on floodplain builds road.

Central scout moves west into jungle. West scout west into jungle. South scout SW, S to mountaintop. And sees new people!

India has a warrior way over here, which is slightly disturbing. And we meet Cleopatra -- our equal in techs, with similar gold and two cities.

I consider 48 gold and 1gpt for the Wheel, to see where horses are, and to eliminate our treasury from barb sacking. But it's not fully shopped and I think we can wait. So I do. (I shouldn't have.)

Sala stays high food, as it can grow fully once and be close again before the granary finishes regardless of my actions.

Rest looks good.

Interturn: we lose 16 gold to the barbarian. OUCH! That's a lot...didn't expect it to be that high. Had hoped he would just pillage the work on our warrior. Oh well, too late now.

(7) 2670 - Center scout goes SW, intending to get to land bridge and/or explore west of Russia. West scout goes west. South scout heads W, SW for another mountaintop view.

Sala warrior fortifies.

Cities all look fine.

Russian spear in our lands, but he's probably just passing through.

Interturn, forest road completes.

(8) 2630 - S scout goes SW SW to maximize fog-busting. Center scout goes S. West scout goes W.

Worker in forest goes SE to grass.

NF will revolt without help. Lux to 30% costs 3gpt. Other option is to make the new guy a specialist. That hurts growth time but helps with income. 5 turn vs. 10 turns to grow. In 5 turns, then, I could continue to grow and make a specialist and keep Sala happy when it grows. Or I can gain 4 gpt and then possibly change. I take the gold and make him an entertainer. (Working the plains just gives one extra shield, which is then lost to corruption.)

Making him an entertainer lets me LOWER lux to 10% for a bit, which is actually even more helpful with gpt.

Interturn: Watch Egyptian warrior kill something -- probably a barb. And then NF is hit by disease -- curses! It shrinks to size 3. Road completes, though, on the second flood plain. So much for the entertainer!

(9) 2590 - Worker on floodplain heads to wheat. We'll need to regrow NF after the disease runs its course. Worker by Salamanca builds a mine, to make the grass square a different option from the wheat (road considered but the forest road helps speed settlers west just as well, if not better).

Center scout SW to avoid Russian warrior in his way. West scout SW to hill in middle of jungle. S scout S then SW to hill and near Egyptian lands.

Still nothing to purchase. I think to check and Russia is the only AI with 3 cities.

Sala to grow in one turn but needs all its food to do so. NF working most appropriate squares. GR too young to worry about.

Interturn: More disease in NF. Warrior in GR completes. GR begins another warrior.

(10) 2550 - Warrior in GR fortifies.

Worker on wheat irrigates.

Center scout S. W scout W to coast, unfortunately. S scout SW SW (as 2S is impossible).

Sala wheat citizen to hill to gain one turn on granary, unfortunately going to no growth as the forest is being used. But NF really needs the food so that its settler won't finish before the food. NF now down to size two working both wheat. Sala unhappy, too. Lux back to 20%.

I had an accident and hit return to go on to 2510 – and then lost my older autosaves. The only save I have available is the 2510 autosave. Mea maxima culpa.

Arathorn

Save file at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/lotr3-shadow-Arathorn-2550bc.zip

 

[Arathorn]

You fixed the science slider right away. Very nice. It's always good practice to review the passed turn before hitting enter.

Warrior in Salamanca -- almost a necessity. We're way behind on military right now, for MP, not to mention having troops for defense from the AI and barbs. You can only run with no troops for so long.

Worker in NF? Were it not for the two workers purchased from China, I would say that this might well be the best move, as improved tiles are important. However, we got equivalently one extra worker (since slaves work half-speed) already, so we're not as behind on workers as other things. I would call this questionable, as a settler is almost assuredly the better move. Expansion is the name of the game right now. Not bad per se, just not the best, probably.

Yes, the other wheat near NF is definitely the priority. It's probably better to move through the flood plain, though, roading as you go, to make the near-term potential better. With NF's insane growth rate (especially when it's running both wheats, as in your game), it's going to be on those flood plain tiles soon anyway. They might as well be somewhat improved, especially since it saves a later worker-turn.

Let's talk techs. In 2950, you contacted Ghandi. You had two techs he didn't and he had two you didn't. But he also had another supplier of those techs -- namely China. With as close as those two are to each other, you know they have contact with each other. If India doesn't get his WC/Pottery fix from us, he'll get it elsewhere. We might as much get as much benefit from those techs while we can, because later they may well be worthless. What can wait, must wait. But this can't really wait, because our window to get ANY value from WC/P can close at a moment's notice -- and did at some point during your turn (and you didn't even notice).

Oh, and if Lee screams about non-vet troops, I'll scream back at him. Troops have many purposes -- many, MANY purposes and several of those (like MP, AI intimidation, revolt quieting -- nearly anything but fighting) can be accomplished just as easily by regular troops as by vets. Reg troops are quite fine, if used correctly.

Goodjob remembering to turn down the lux rate -- 4 gpt is significant.

2900 - Two workers mining and one roading? If workers gang up on tasks in the same square (and there are times to do so and times to do otherwise), they should all be doing the SAME task! In this example, if all three had mined, the mine would've finished significantly earlier, allowing extra shield production in whichever city was using it -- and the workers probably would've had time to get the road built, too. Or the other order (road first), as there's something to be said for connecting cities. The important thing is to GANG UP if you have workers in the same square. The Iro worker should've mined, since that's what the first workers were doing here.

Nice catch on the luxury rate again -- NF shouldn't riot. And 2nd warrior in Sala is a solid choice, too.

2850 - Road before irrigation? Why? You seem to have this idea that cities should only grow so fast and no faster. Growth rate is NEVER quick enough. Yes, the road will get us some extra short-term commerce, but the slower growth costs us an occasional population point, which adds up more over time. If there were a settler going to be headed north that could get a boost from the road, that would be one thing, but growth is king.

I unsuccessfully tried the same Indian end-run trick as you. Too bad -- twas a good idea. It was a medium reward, pretty low-risk maneveur. No, it didn't work out this time, but it's a paying proposition to take, in general. And some extra kudos for not being stubborn about it and moving the scout south to where he could get through.

2750 - 2nd warrior to NF. Yep, there's where the growth is -- and that's where the biggest problem with riots are bound to occur. If Sala needs protection against barbs, though, this will be a disappointing move. Still, probably the right thing to do.

The Russians found Kiev two squares away from the barbarian hut

Hmm...the AI is getting smarter. Its choices probably were found where it was or get the settler killed by the barbs. Additionally, the founding puts the barb hut in visibility range of the city, automatically destroying it (not sure if they get the gold for it or not). Certainly not something to laugh at.
2710 - New River = Niagara Falls? If so, another move, working both the plains and the hills. With no road connecting NF to Salamanca, waste at NF eats that 3rd shield. You're sacrificing both growth (food) and commerce for an illusionary shield. Always check whether moving a citizen has the desired effect or not.

Location of Grand River -- the discussion between where you and Brian J placed and where Lee and I placed it. You posted first, so the write-up goes here, Arizona_Steve, but everybody should read it. (r) means the square is on a river, getting a commerce boost.

On silks -- initial area -- 8 squares -- 1 bonus grass(r), 1 regular grass, 1 forest(r), 3 jungle, 1 jungle silk, 1 coast.
On forest river -- initial area -- 8 squares -- 2 bonus grass (r), 2 regular grass(r), 2 regular grass, 1 jungle silk, 1 mountain.

Advantage: Forest river -- clearly, as it has an extra bonus river grass, and lots more grass for growth. Yes, the forest (shields) is lost, which is somewhat unfortunate, but the food growth makes up for it. (More people working more squares yields more shields, even if each square is slightly less).

After a cultural growth (f means forest, m mountain, bg bonus grassland, rg regular grassland, j jungle, h hills, c coast) and with minimal/no worker work:

On silks -- 20 squares -- 2 bg(r), 2rg(r), 2rg, 1f, 3j(r), 5j, 4c, 1j with silks.
On forest river -- 20 squares -- 2bg(r), 2 rg(r), 2rg, 5m, 2h, 2j(r), 2j with silks, 1j, 2c.

Essentially, the silks has extra 1f, 1j(r), 4j, 2c and forest river has extra 5m, 2h, 1j, with the same "core" of 12. Putting aside for a moment the freshwater issue, forest river can work better to size 12 without work than can silks. The hills are better than the jungle and forest river has two jungle silks if it's desperate.

Post-clearing and rails, forest river looks better, too. Using some grass irrigated and some mined, it can support plenty of pop to work the mountains, too, at 4 shields a pop, as well as the hills at 4 shields a pop. Those extra coast/jungles of silks are going to produce just food, leaving Grand River a food station but a shield weakling. That's pretty bad for a first-ring city. Yeah, forest river loses two food because its coasts only produce one each, but all the grassland under the cleared jungle makes that loss EASY to bear.

Fresh water vs. coast access: I imagine Arizona_Steve and Brian J were lured into thinking the coast would help. It is good to have some cities on the coast, so that ships can be built and harbors can be made for trading. But it's not essential and each city needs to be judged on its own merits. It's entirely probable GR will build our first harbor and maybe our first boat, but both of those could've waited for a better spot. OTOH, fresh water access allows expansion beyond size 6 without an aqueduct. Construction is a bit away (not as far as you might think), but the 100 shields needed for an aqueduct are going to be very VERY hard to come by at the present location -- and will take away from other necessary projects.

Commerce: Building on the silks has a short-term edge here, as the silk bonus is larger than the river bonus, for the city itself. Long-term, they're nearly equivalent, once the forest river site can get the silks cleared to work.

Luxuries: Founding on silks requires road a mountain, a grass, and either a forest or two more grass to get that luxury "home". Forest river would require a mountain, a grass, and a jungle. This is pretty similar time to get one luxury home. Building on the silks will have an easier time with the second silk, though, as no cultural expansion is necessary. Founding on the silks also protects it a bit better, as no amount of culture can take the first silk and getting the second will be very difficult. This is probably not an issue.

Lay-out: Forest river wastes no squares. Founding on the silks wastes mountains. Founding on forest river led to an easy decision on the SE peninsula, with minimal loss. Now, that city is harder to place correctly and will probably have all many extra flaws, including not being on the coast, despite having lots of sea in its borders. This city is low-priority, though, and shouldn't be founded too early.

Other: Forest river can be founded one turn earlier, due to less walk. This might have some corruption effect, but that would be minimal. The earlier founding helps get everything done one turn earlier basically forever, though, which does have an impact.

Verdict: Founding on the forest river is better short-term, mid-term, and long-term, in terms of growth potential and shield potential. Its flaws are minimal and are overwhelmed by its strengths. Your city site selection gets classified as .

A plus, though, in checking diplomacy and lux tax every turn. For me, it's mostly habit (unless I'm interrupted during the turn, which happens more frequently than I would like).

Mining the second hill is , too, though. It will only give two shields under despotism, or the same as a forest. Only Salamanca can access it and it has access to at least one forest. Roading that forest is faster than mining the hills and starts a route west to the nice lands out there. You could've reached the forest the same turn as the hills. Not a good use of his time.

Moving the last worker from the wheat to the plains is probably a good idea. It's often worth it to stop and build a road on the way, first, though. In this case, it would be in the desert, a very low priority square. A settler will head in that direction and want a road, eventually. Probably better to to straight on, as there's a floodplain next door that will serve as the next work area nicely.

Your scouting looked OK. You got the one guy killed, which is one of those unfortunate things that just happens and we can't control. This hurt, too, because you couldn't contact the Egyptians, but moving scouts once barbs are around is at least as much luck as skill.

- 2 (checking diplo, tax allocations)
- 2 (scouting, city build orders)
- 1 (tech trading (lack thereof))
- 3 (Grand River location, NF citizens, workers)

Overall Grade: D+

Arathorn

 

[Arathorn]

3000 - Agree 100% on Salamanca warrior and NF settler.

2950 - Agree that CB was in a now-or-never state for selling. BW and $4 is a good price -- very good. Waiting until India appeared on the list of available civs was good, too. Did you try to trade with them? You made no mention of their situation or any efforts in that regard. But, you definitely get a for not following the advice of the previous leader in regards to the luxury tax rate. It's still running along blithely at 50% in 2550, which cost us probably close to 30 gold over these 10 turns. You'd even been notified that it could go down once the temple was complete.

2850 - Yes, the food in NF is absurd. It should be more so. Irrigation before road nearly always. The extra commerce of the road can be absorbed and overcome by the extra commerce of an extra citizen.

2750 - I agree with the city placement. Were Russia not so close, I'm not sure I wouldn't have headed west first, but getting the silks couldn't really wait, so it didn't. GR, where you put it, can easily be a powerhouse, short- mid- and long-term. I will argue a bit with the building of an initial temple, though. We're still thin on troops and eventually the barbs/AI will care. A temple doesn't fill any immediate need, whereas a warrior (or even a worker -- at least until you know what the Egyptians had to sell!) does. The second silk isn't an immediate need, as we have no one to trade it to -- nor even the first one hooked up yet!

Buying the workers, yeah. At some point, we'll need to start using gold for other purposes, but 4 slaves and 2 workers this early would give us a tremendous head-start on land infrastructure (as opposed to city infrastructure, i.e. buildings, which are another story).

A nit -- moving the warrior from Sala to NF immediately would've saved some time -- and a lot of lux taxes, if it would've made you look earlier. The larger cities need MPs first.

Scouting was solid. Scouts die sometimes. Nice job checking the land west of Russia.

- 2 (checking diplo/buying workers, BW trade)
- 3 (scouting, GR location, city build orders)
- 1 (workers(NF wheat order))
- 1 (lux tax rate)

Overall Grade: B+

Arathorn