Lotr5 -- Tactless Darius

[Arathorn]

I disagreed with T-hawk on the min sci push for Republic. With libraries coming online and courthouses, well, it was time to push the accelerator to the max. We're already WAY behind, as Cathy is in Industrial clothing....

Took me a while (but a lot less than the 25ish-turn min sci run) to get to Republic. Revolted in 990 AD, so I pass the game off in Anarchy for a few turns (I would've played through the anarcy, but I'd already gone 13 to make the years nice again). We drew 5 1/2, of course, which is about the max for our size. SIGH!

Cities are in revolt, but I think it's better to lose a building than a pop point. Others may have different opinions. I started us on map-making, as getting harbors for food for our coastal cities is the next big push, IMO.

I think/hope we can do a fair number of 4-turn researches once the revolt is over. Map-making, then construction for aqueducts, then currency. In less than 20 turns, I think we should be medieval and racing for universities.

We will want a fair number of marketplaces, because we'll probably not be able to run science higher than about 40% and 20% luxes means 40% or so is going to cash, which means marketplaces will be critical.

You might also look at disbanding a fair bit of our military (any archers/warriors, for sure) in cities for shield boost and to cut our upkeep costs. We're gonna need every penny we can wrangle.... It might make us a target, but I think it's a chance we need to take.

The pace should pick up again here real soon, I imagine.

Gothmog -- up now
Charis -- on deck

Save file at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-1000ad.zip

Arathorn

 

[Gothmog]

Well, I have to start my turns in Anarchy but I get to play them out in a Republic with a well placed FP! This is a big change from my last time up, now we can become a research machine! OK well a research buggy for now, but just wait til we get universities.

I'll look at losing buildings instead of pop points, and at the size of our miliary. MM is my choice as well, harbors will be good for commerce - but also for exploring (assuming their are any pathways off our island). I would love to see a good WM, too bad that I seem to be 'the one who does not know how to ask'.

'I got it', but I may not get to play until Friday night. I've got a big presentation tomorrow for which I am currently woefully unprepared.

 

[T-hawk]

Um, how'd you get Republic in less than 25? Slamming science to 100% wouldn't have gotten it in better than the minimum at the end of my turn. And how'd we do it without going bankrupt? There were still that many libraries left to build around the FP area?

 

[JMB]

WRT losing buildings versus pop points, can't we oscillate between rioting and non-rioting (I seem to remember Sirian doing something like this...) so that we don't lose either during our anarchy?

JMB

 

[Arathorn]

My preliminary calculations indicate that we should be able to maintain a positive cashflow while researching the rest of the ancient age techs in 4 turns each. I'm actually think/hoping that MM will come in 2 or 3 after anarchy, with a few beakers already built up from specialists.

20 turns to reach medieval is 5 turns for anarchy + 3 turns for MM + 3 techs (math, construction, currency) * 4 turns each. I'm really hoping that we get Monotheism to speed us toward Education, so we can get universities going soon.

Really, we're in a massive builder phase coming very soon, with harbors then aqueducts/marketplaces and shortly cathedrals/universities.

Can we catch up by ignoring all optional techs and always researching at last-civ prices? A good FP location and intelligent use of the lux slider may still pave the way. I'm a lot more hopeful than I was after my last turn. We're still WAY behind, but I can start to see a glimmer of hope of a possible way of starting to catch up a little....

Of course, if Cathy invades with infantry and cossacks, we're in a major world of hurt....

As for Friday night, the typical LotR rule is 24/72. I like to keep the game hopping, but I understand that Civ3 can't be #1 priority as much as we'd all like. I was unsure whether I'd be playing before tonight, too, but I found a few minutes. If nothing else, the game is pretty quick with no wars and no deals to make, at this point.

There are a fair number of issues once the anarchy ends, though.

There is a settler and a worker fortified in the middle of the island who should probably be used to build up cities that have enough food/happy to be larger. More workers from max-food cities will probably be good for that, too. And unit disbands can speed buildings along!

Kinda feels a bit like Ice-olationist Cuba read...in a way.

As for Republic faster, in 880 AD, I experimented with turning it up and it was showing significantly lower research times. I did have to sell some buildings, micro cities for research, merge in workers to grow cities, and use all the tricks in my bag, but it wasn't that bad. Libraries completing and a couple courthouses made a difference. And who knows? Maybe we got another contact or somebody else finally researched it or something....

Arathorn

 

[Gothmog]

@JMB - In some cases it may be possible to work tiles for 2 extra food, then riot and lose 2 food and repeat ad-nausium. I will be doing this where possible.

There haven't been any tech offers lately, have we had cash available? I ask because I am wondering if I should be rushing key buildings with cash or saving it for tech buys. I would think 300-400 gold would be enough of a treasury to be ready. Maybe once we're in a Republic another civ in Republic (and with that as it's prefered government) will take pity on us. I'd be nice to have a 'Big Brother' about now. Opinions?

 

[Arathorn]

We have NO cash. I mean, like 3 gold, and we only have that much because I sold some temples/granaries to finish the Republic run ASAP.

Right now, we have science-increasing buildings built and cheap. We have no way of increasing money quickly. Science is relatively certain. Hoping for someone to take pity on us is dangerous. We need all these techs ASAP, for population/markets and to move on to medieval stuff.

I *think* our research power will get us techs in 4 turns each for a while with a small positive cashflow, even without disbanding some units, which we will need to do.

No tech offers lately but zero cash. T-hawk was also selling buildings to fund research. After MM in 2 or 3, I think we'll make money for a while but probably not enough for any techs for a while.

Spending it on our own research seems to me to be the way to go. Beyond that, well, I look at offers to buy techs as nice but not something we can really count on. If, at some point, we need/want to do another 40-turn run on a tech, that will be a major issue. At this point, I'd say rush the buildings, if we have the cash. Or just save it for deficit research later....

Arathorn

 

[Gothmog]

OK, 3 gold and in anarchy - we wont have a treasury of any size soon. I agree that we should just go for our own research and not depend on any stinkin' AI. On my last turn I cranked the research at the expense of a treasury too. But before that we got a few good offers .

 

[Gothmog]

Preturn: First look is a fright. Five cities are in active revolt. I wonder briefly if the last leader was mad, lost to the way of the flame. Then I realize we are in anarchy for 4 more turns. I look around and a couple cities can be taken off riot mode. Click...

(IT) Paris builds Smiths.

(1) 1010 AD - nada. Some cities back to riot, I try surplus food at two locations.

(IT) India calls up and offers us Incense for Spices straight up. We must have a harbor route to them - that's pretty nice considering we don't have MM yet! I take the deal and they go to polite.

(2) 1020 AD - Lux helps, more MM.

(IT) nada.

(3) 1030 AD - not a peep.

(IT) France calls up and wants Furs for Spices. I accept and she goes to polite. Does she not feel the tactlessness in my negotiation tactics? I guess it's take pity on the tactless one decade. Antioch riots again but doesn't destroy any of its buildings. We go to Republic!

(4) 1040 AD - We are in a position to do the deficit research exploit (run -87 gpt at 100% sci when we have 10 gold in the bank), but I decline. I MM extensively and we get it in 3 turns at -3 gpt. I start some harbor prebuilds.

(IT) nothing.

(5) 1050 AD - MM slider and MM now due in 2 at +35 gpt. Got that? I disband a few more troops and we go to +41 gpt.

(IT) Hmm, I feel the tension of trades gone untraded.

(6) 1060 AD - ho hum.

(IT) Map making comes in and we can do math in 4 turns at only 20% sci! [dance] , we are the research machine! I start harbors everywhere.

(7) 1070 AD - start a galley and rush w/a couple new horses.

(IT) France gets Magellans.

(8) 1080 AD - passin' time.

(IT) yes.

(9) 1090 AD - First galley heads out.

(10) 1100 AD - Start some pre builds for markets. We're going to want to pop a couple workers from full food box cities for irrigation duty etc.

Well, I built the treasury up to 273 gold while runnin min time research. Math due next turn (still at 20 % sci) at +46 gpt. Currency or construction next, either would be good.

The save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5-1100ad.zip

 

[Arathorn]

Charis, you're up!
JMB, on deck.

Always nice to start our first galley before the AI builds Magellan's. It was a close thing, though. *Shudder*

Gaining cash while researching math? Nice. A couple luxuries? Very nice.

Arathorn

 

[JMB]

Charis, are you going to to be able to play this game by tonight? (I believe that we are on the opposite sides of the country, so if you finish early on in the evening, I can finish up tonight as well...) If you can't take the game tonight, I can switch with you...

JMB

 

[Arathorn]

Actually, Charis is way overdue. If he doesn't claim by the time you want to play, JMB, just consider him skipped and take the game.

Arathorn

 

[Charis]

Charistactless falls asleep at the helm. Go ahead JMB and skip me this round, my bad. I didn't post got it cuz each night I expected to get to it but got roped into something. Now just got a call and have something to do tonight too 8-\

Good luck,
Charis

 

[Arathorn]

JMB -- up now
T-hawk - on deck
Arathorn -- in the hole

Baseball season's here and I'm darn-well gonna use baseball terminology!

Thanks for letting us know the score, Charis. Hope life gives you a break and you're available next go-round.

Arathorn

 

[JMB]

0 - IBT, we learn Mathematics, and begin researching construction (I think we'll benefit more from getting our cities bigger sooner (aqueducts) than from the marketplaces...). Construction in 4 with a -16 gpt deficit.

1 - Not much. IBT, nothing.

2 - Not much. IBT, Arabia offers us Polytheism for 200 gold. We accept.

3 - Not much. IBT, nothing.

4 - Not much. IBT, we learn Construction and begin researching Currency (4 turns at 30%, +24 gpt)

5 - Change build orders in most cities to aqueducts. IBT, Korea demands that our galley leave their territory... We comply. Russia demands gems from us. Thinking back to the previous discussion about giving into Russia, I decide to cave (I would love to get her into a war (I think we might be able to deal with her alone...), but as we can't begin any diplomatic initiatives I think we'd get dogpiled...).

6 - Not much. IBT, France wants us to move our galley out of her territory...

7 - Not much. IBT, nothing.

8 - Not much. It appears that France is doesn't have Nationalism yet. That is a good thing... We enter a new age and learn the secrets of Engineering. Begin researching Monotheism (I decide to research it slower than our best positive cash flow rate (7 turns at +7 gpt) so that we can build up a fair bit of cash for tech purchases since the AI seems more likely to offer us deals when we have gold sitting around...). Montheism in 13 turns at +45 gpt.

9 - Not much. IBT, nothing.

10 - I have set Arbela up so that it should produce a worker next turn just after it grows (it can't sustain 7 people without increasing the lux rate and it will take ~ 17 turns to build a marketplace...) Oh boy! Russia already has ironclads...

T-hawk, feel free to change the build orders if you feel it is appropriate (i.e., we might want to change some of the cities I have building aqueducts to workers and use them to pump our main cities up).

Sorry for not spending more time MMing the game, but I didn't have as much time as I thought I'd have tonight and wanted to get the game moving again...

Here's the game: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr5_1200AD.zip

JMB

 

[T-hawk]

Got it. It's up next after RBP8 for tomorrow. Yeah, I think we should try to always keep on hand enough cash for a tech buy; can roughly estimate it by looking at the total beaker cost to research a tech.

Do we want to set up one city as an every-other-turn worker farm, for population migration purposes? (No city is anywhere close to making +10 food/turn at size 6 for a faster farm.)

 

[Arathorn]

If we can get a city (or two) on every-other-turn worker farm duty, I think that would be a good use. We need to get our cities up and running as efficiently as possible as soon as possible. The AI civs will be building hospitals soon, so we need to be leveraging our aqueducts. I think continued population migration is a good plan.

If you set up a city or two that way, T-hawk, make sure to let us all know which city it is, so we can keep it running while we need population.

I don't think the AI civs will offer the human gpt deals for tech, so if we want to buy tech, we'll need to have the cash on-hand. We might be better off, though, pushing tech and science rate, though. I'm just not sure....

Arathorn

 

[Gothmog]

Arrgh to Engineering, Monotheism would have been closer to universities and banks. I doubt we want to risk a middle ages war given the dog-pile probability and that we would be technically outgunned at the moment.

Yes to worker farms, we need to get our lands upto maximum efficiency asap. Now that we are a Republic w/a FP we should really rock (OK, once we get a bit more infrastructure built).

It's a hard call on the research. I think the AI is giving us just about what it would cost us to research anyway. At the moment we have more libraries than markets, so we're getting a better return on science than on gold. My preference would be to keep running max science for now, but it's really just a feeling. Once we get markets the balance may shift. Then we may have to choose universities or banks first. This game may actually tell us more about human vs. AI research than the Russian Researcher game.

 

[JMB]

I think we should go for the worker farms and I believe third city N of our capital is probably a good one for this purpose (it should be able to get the +5/+5 pretty easily), and it will let our other better cities have more good tiles...

JMB

 

[T-hawk]

Actually, I forgot about all those wheats around Arbela and Susa. One of those can certainly make +10 food, and just maybe +10 shields as well. Will see what I can do, still after RBP8...