LotR6 - Progressive Paranoia

OK, got a chance to peek at the save between a couple other things.

Peace with Korea - I'd do it right now; if we don't, we lose our horse army and five workers to their MDI stack. And we REALLY want to avoid them buying in any more dogs.

FP - I think we should have the Leader rush it right now in New York. That brings NY, Miami, Washington, and Boston out of low-second-ring status to high-first. (NY itself has at least 75% corruption right now.) All the cities can get large and productive with irrigation; NY won't be a shield powerhouse but it'll pull lots of commerce.

Worker farms - a must! Aydin is an excellent choice. It has a cow, low max size potential, high corruption, and would need an aqueduct. Will need a courthouse and granary but can crank workers every 2 turns then. Ditto for Boston, which with the 3 wheats can reach a worker every 2 turns, but since this city has good long-term potential it won't crank workers forever (probably about halfway through the middle ages.)

Thoughts?
 
T-hawk, looking at the save, your thoughts are good. Making New York our FP will also make any cities around the Pusan area pretty good too. Speaking of which, even though there will be a lot of cultural pressure, we might want to consider planting a city on the river north of Pusan.

By accepting peace with Korea right now, it seems like we can get about a 100 gold discount on Construction.

JMB
 
Sounds good to me. Peace. FP in NY isn't optimal, but an early FP can make a huge difference -- often as big or bigger than an optimally-located FP. Go for it.

Remember...once we get Construction, we'll be in the Middle Ages, so we can only deal once/player turn. T-hawk, as the one who gets us there, you get that one "deal turn," too, even if it's a different turn from getting Construction. (Hope that makes sense.)

Arathorn
 
FP/Palace strategy question: If you build the FP in NYC, would you consider moving the Palace to Uskudar (assume it has the resources to build one) at some point, or is there no real benefit gained from that? Does the fact that you're playing Deity have an effect on that decision?
 
The Palace move is a strategy that has it's place, but it is very rare. Typically by the time you might get around to moving a Palace the game is already won or lost. We would currently have better things to do with a leader than move our Palace. The only time I have done it was on a large map, where my initial continent wasn't enough to win it so I needed a second core later in the game.
 
What Gothmog said. I often build or rush the FP close to the original capital, then move the Palace into newly-captured enemy territory; but it's pretty rare to relocate the palace within already-controlled territory. I'd do it if we were drowning in Leaders, but we aren't.

It's not worth hand-building in the medieval age, but probably is in the Industrial age when production takes a back seat to commerce. I've moved a Palace in that way twice, making a big difference once (it was the LK Korea Deity game, can't remember the number.)

I am more likely to do it on Deity, since that's where it's more likely to make a game-swinging difference. On lower levels I'm much more likely to go conquering enemy territory and move the Palace there instead.
 
OK, here we go.

I move the horse army up next to Pusan which gets us better peace terms, about 20 gold worth. For peace, Korea gives Construction and we pay 8 gpt.

And so the Ottomans return to peace for the first time in a millennium, but with a great and justified distrust of any foreigners, all of whom have already brutally betrayed the Ottoman people. Some might even call it Paranoia. For now and forever, the Ottomans will conduct diplomatic dealings reluctantly and at great lengths between.

And as promised, the great Murad I directs construction of a Forbidden Palace in the city of New York.

Our Scientific nature got us Feudalism for free. All the other civs, unsurprisingly, have it already.

==========

Why the ding-dong is there a stack of eight fortified workers outside Kafa?! There's much work to be done! Starting with bringing irrigation into and through the entire Boston Plains.

Between turns, Pusan expands borders, meaning we can't cram a city in there.

Some civs start Sistine Chapel. Looking at the wonders list - holy cow, England has SIX wonders already, five in London!


130 AD: Republic is due in one turn, and I do lots of partial-whipping. We revolt as the tech comes in, and get 3.5 turns of anarchy. Fine with me, especially since that means we'll get into Republic on my turn. :D


150 AD: Darn, Korea didn't have Republic last turn but they do now. Well, no point in looking for any diplomacy during anarchy while we don't have income to offer. All known civs have Monotheism and Engineering.

I start one scientist on Engineering although I highly doubt it'll finish.


210 AD: The Ottoman Republic is founded, as England starts COPERNICUS in London! Yikes!

Well... if they just discovered a tech, there just might be brokering opportunities way up there. I rush the harbor in Antalya (the city that will get best use out of it) so we can have water trade routes with England, Korea, and France.


230 AD: Here's my round of trading.

Korea can buy the most resources from us; we get Monotheism for Horses, Furs, 250 gold.

Japan and Mongolia lack Theology - excellent!

Theology from France for Furs + 23/turn.

Engineering from Japan for Theology.

33 gold + full World Map from Mongols for Theology. (He wouldn't give Monarchy.)

We also trade Silks for Dyes with Korea, and sell the world map back around to everyone.

I park the one scientist on Printing Press.


250 AD: Thunderhawk III was so pleased with the last round of diplomatic discussions that he attempts to send his envoy to France again, but the envoy, still shaking with fear and paranoia from the last season, knifes the leader in the back instead.

==========

Highly Detailed Wrath (tm): I'd suggest merging the two workers that are in New York right now; then Istanbul and Edrine should be the next worker merge targets.

Boston will very shortly become a textbook every-other-turn worker farm, although I'd recommend squeezing a library in first to hold off culture from Inch'on.

Groom Aydin to be the other worker factory; it'll need the courthouse that it's currently building and then a granary, natch.

Get irrigation into the few grassland tiles of Izmit; it can actually reach size 8 before rails, working five hill tiles for good productivity.

An Education-for-Chivalry brokerage is on the table (Korea lacks the former). I can't do it, but JMB can, or you can hold out for an Education-Invention brokerage or a three-way. Up to you.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr6-250ad.zip
 
And the map:

lotr6-250ad.jpg
 
PEACE! An increase in paranoia. Republic. FP. Most excellent.

Of course, we've completely wiped out the Americans and are still behind a few other nations in land area. Sigh....

JMB -- you're up, man! Give 'em heck
Arathorn -- on deck (a knight sweep east in the making?)

We do need a bunch of infra, though.

Arathorn
 
I see it and will play tomorrow night.

Screw the knights. I think I should concentrate on infrastructure and then we go straight for Sipahi before expanding our territory... In any case, I'll wait until playing to decide as who knows, we might get thrown into another dogpile...

About the tech deals, I think I'll probably hold off and try for a three-way (hopefully even more!!) deal.

JMB
 
Great turn for the mighty Ottoman Empire. I like our peninsula much better than the island we had last time, even if it is a bit smaller. I see that T-hawk has a nice wall of defence in position already, if we have idle workers they should road up those positions and then put some fortresses there.

I agree with JMB that we should concentrate on infrastructure while we can and I am sure that will take us out to MT and our uber-UU. We should be able to sweep out and "Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the women!". With time to make peace before we become totally paranoid. England seems a good target with all those wonders, but that's a question for later.
 
250 AD - Everything looks good :thumbsup:. IBT, the Mongols begin Sistine.

260 AD - Merge the 2 workers as instructed ;). IBT, Aydin builds courthouse, begins granary.

270 AD - Invention has arrived!! 3 AIS have it and 3 do not. I would prefer not having to trade with Liz, but she is the only one who will consider trading with us (and we have an extra gems that she is interested in...). Invention for gems, 40 gpt, and 239 gold. Invention and 43 gold to Tokugawa for Education. Education to Wang Kon for Chivalry, 5 gold, and his WM (he had nothing else to offer). Joanie has nothing to offer for Invention except Ivory (getting Monarchy from her is doubtful...). Because we are limited with the number of trades we can make per turn, I take the deal. England and the Aztecs have the tech lead (Liz has banking and astronomy while Monty only has banking), everyone else is only ahead Monarchy (and we have Invention while the Koreans do not (they seem like they are close to discovering it though...)). IBT, the English and Mongols begin Leo's.

280 AD - Sure enough, Wang Kon gets Invention. IBT, the Japanese want to exchange TMs. Sure. Istanbul builds aqueduct, begins pikeman. The Aztecs begin Leo's.

290 AD - Merge 2 American workers into Istanbul. Join another one into Edrine. IBT, England declares war on the Aztecs. The Japanese begin Sistine.

300 AD - Not much.

310 AD - Not much.

320 AD - A few worker merges. IBT, the Mongols ally with the Aztecs. The Koreans begin Leo's.

330 AD - Not much. Liz now has a monopoly on Gunpowder. IBT, Palace expansion. The Japanese begin Leo's.

340 AD - Nothing much.

350 AD - Not much. Please change the courthouse in Miami to an aqueduct or marketplace (I wasn't thinking and forgot that it is right next to our FP...). If we were to irrigate the BG tile 2 tiles SW of Istanbul, we could still maintain 15 spt and would gain 1 more fpt.

I have been moving our pikemen towards the Korean border, so that we can send the spearmen to our undefended cities in the W. Other than that, I think we are in pretty good shape.

30 turns until PP comes in. The tech situation hasn't changed much over the past few turns. Banking has made it around to a few more civs, but it isn't worth it to make a deal right now. We currently have 382 gold and are making 59 per turn. This should be enough to purchase techs when a good brokering opportunity presents itself and perhaps to upgrade a bunch of our horsemen to take on Wang in 9 turns (when our trade deal with him expires).

We are currently at peace with Wang (it expires this turn), I could cancel our gpt payment to him right now, but don't want to be forced into another 20 turns of peace with him (essentially, I am hoping that he will let peace continue without renegotiating it and tying our hands for another 20 turns...).

Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/LOTR6PP350AD.zip

Sorry about not getting setting you up for a knight sweep east Arathorn. Perhaps you'll be able to upgrade our horsemen near the end of your turn and then be able to raze Pusan...

JMB
 
To my knowledge, the AIs always renegotiate peace that has a per-turn payment associated with it, and almost always settle for straight-up peace in the renegotiation. And if we don't accept renegotiated peace, we declare as the aggressor and break the deals and our reputation.

Besides, I don't think we're ready to take Wang on yet. Let's get to Sipahi and stomp on him good rather than chipping away with knights. He'll have Gunpowder by the time we get any decent number of knights, too.

Are Boston and Aydin farming workers yet?
 
T-hawk,

Sorry about not mentioning anything about the worker farms. They aren't yet, but will be within the next turn or two. I followed your advice about getting the library in Boston (to alleviate the cultural pressure from Inch'on) and skimmed a worker off of it earlier. The library is due in 2 turns and Boston is maxed out at size 6. Aydin is also maxed out and will complete its granary next turn, and can then pump out workers ad nauseum.

Thanks for the renegotiating peace tip.

JMB
 
Pretty boring turns. Made a couple bad moves, though, that may come back to haunt us.

Nothing interesting until about 380 AD, when Montezuma came demanding furs. When I turned him down, he declared on us. Sorry.

400 AD was my trading year.
562 gold to France for Music Theory.
MT, WM, 20 gpt, 9 gold to Korea for Gunpowder.
We have 3 saltpeter, 2 connected, France has two. Korea none on map but doesn't need, so must be getting it from France. Everyone else has one, exactly.
MT, WM, 23 gpt, 4 gold to Mongols for Banking.
MT, Gunpowder to Japan for Astronomy, 43 gold, WM.
Furs to Mongols for 12 gpt and 1 gold (stupid of me to ask for the one gold).
We still have 62 gpt income. And, at this point, we were at parity, minus Monarchy (big deal).

By 410 AD, our line to the Mongols was cut and our rep trashed. I should've just done Furs for 12 gpt or not done it. I have NO clue why we had a path for one turn and not the next. Sorry, guys. :( On the plus side, cash will get us through the rest of the Middle Ages and we'll be tactless then, anyway.

440 saw France ally against us (sound familiar?). We lost our supply of incense. I stave off major riots by scroll-ahead. Military is moving SW, to be nearer French border. We should free up another horse in the east soon, once some cultural borders expand.

I built a fair few pikes, a couple knights, no muskets yet (one would be good, just for show). Boston worker farm is up and running. Aydin worker farm wouldn't run because of happiness. Marketplace nearing completion there.

Navigation is out there. So is Printing Press, so that run didn't work either.

I'm building both libraries and banks. I figure we'll probably do some research. Plus, we need all the cash we can get our mitts on.

New York really needs a harbor to grow. Let that one finish, please. The rest of the stuff is vetoable. Minimize/do no cash-rushing, though, as we'll need the cash for leveraging deals.

I itched to fight Korea, but we're still not really ready. We could probably beat them, but it would be Pyrrhic, I fear.

Gothmog, you're up.
Skyfish -- on deck, pending the new boss's approval! :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr6-450ad.zip

Arathorn
 
Nice trading turn oh tactless one, then we have dogpile revisited eh? At least we have a better strategic position this time; 'got it' - may not get to play tonight though, we'll see.
 
(IT) England starts Magellan’s

(1) 460 AD – Wake our cats and send to coastal regions for defense. Aydin set to work gems (maxed food and pop). Check diplo and Japan and Korea both lack saltpeter.

(IT) Aztecs pull in Japan against us. Oohh that makes me sooo mad, you’ll get your Monte just you wait.

(2) 470 AD – Got some gpt back from somewhere. Chemistry is out there now, English monopoly.

(IT) England and Aztecs come to peace.

(3) 480 AD – Istanbul now size 12, MM.

(IT) Spot French galley. England, Korea, France and Mongols all start Smiths. Aydin completes market, but has no aqueduct? IMO it’s too good a city to be a worker farm.

(4) 490 AD – Cant trade gpt, resources, or even RoP for hard goods. Close to deal on Chemistry with cash, Mongols still lack it.

(IT) France unloads 1 warrior, see a Caravel coming. England completes Bach’s in London. That city will be a prime acquisition. Cascade to Smiths.

(5) 500 AD – Trade window closes as Mongols now have Chem. I kill the French warrior with an elite horse and get a leader! Time to trade for economics and rush Smiths. I decide to use my limited tact to start a world war rather than make peace :evil:
I get Econ from Korea for WM+555 gold, then I sell him furs for 18 gpt.
15g+WM+Saltpeter goes to Mongols for MA vs. Japan, then I trade him spices for furs+5gpt. He is now polite.
68g+6gpt+WM+Gems to Liz for MA vs. Aztecs.
Finally Saltpeter to Korea for MA vs. France
That should keep them all busy!
I rush Smiths in Boston and put various slackers back to work.

(IT) Mongols and Korea MA vs. France. Smith completes. The people think we’re not so tactless after all and expand palace.

(6) 510 AD – Bomb french caravel. Join some workers where appropriate.

(IT) France sails off. I see some English ships (the dreaded Man-o-War?) mobilizing for war.

(7) 520 AD – More merges, our worker farm will replenish our stock in time for rails. Income now at 203gpt, and still giving 58gpt to others.

(9) 540 AD – Savin' up cash, going to need it to get to MT and our uber-UU as well as upgrades.

(IT) Korea and England MA vs the Aztecs. Now that shows the power of investing for the future! Take that Monte!

(10) 550 AD – not much.

Notes: New York should be pumped up to at least size 11, each coast is giving us +5gpt w/market and no corruption. We’re now at 237gpt with 58gpt still outgoing (most of that ends on next players turn) and 1151g in the bank.

Have fun Sky, should be mostly a builder’s turn despite us being at war with 3 civs.

The Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/lotr6-550ad.zip

Edit: FYI, I just learned that I'll be on a trip from friday to sunday. Shouldn't affect anything since I just played.
 
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