[C3C] Love the AI

[tjs282]

I suspect it's more a case of someone near the top of the playlist handing a big wad of gold or tech to someone further down the list in return for an MA or MPP.

And then the new Ally, having those assets in hand, promptly uses that windfall to do the same thing themselves.

 

[Fergei]

I suspect it's more a case of someone near the top of the playlist handing a big wad of gold or tech to someone further down the list in return for an MA or MPP.

And then the new Ally, having those assets in hand, promptly uses that windfall to do the same thing themselves.

Well I suppose the proof of that would be in mods with custom techs, where techs like Nationalism and Fascism (and hopefully MPP) don't even exist. Does the AI turn more bloodthirsty late on in those settings? Assuming great wealth later in those games (both to raise the AI calculation of its own power/superiority and to bribe others to join the madness).

It just seems like despite getting huge offensive bonus of cavalry late in the medieval era the AI waits for about 30-40 further turns before going truly mad. Even though there doesn't appear to be a large difference in AI wealth in those 30 turn. Unless Banks are made in the same 30-40 turn period and ingite aggression through wealth inequality.

I am going to give up a search for a definitive answer rather than remove banks.

 

[Fergei]

I am going to try and make Industrialisation required for Communism (ideologicaly accurate) and Fascism to see if that pushes back the time that the AI start focussing on producing units (which likely increases warmongering). I might bring forward research labs for the same reason.

 

[Fergei]

If it is completely seperate it would make sense. I will see if removing Trade Embargoes makes any difference to late game madness, but it seems not. The best bet seems to be to reduce unit support for Mon/Com/Fas to encourage AIs to return to a government type with war weariness (and more importantly low unit support) thereby reducing the frequency of the AI amassing enormous armies that it then feels compelled to use.

Its a bit frustrating as I think the game handles early to mid game wars/aggression very nicely. In the first couple of eras there can be widespread peace, total bloodbaths and everything inbetween.

So even though the link below suggests Trade Embargoes damage AI attitude more than razing a city (less only than nuking or breaking an alliance) and therefore creates a lot of hostility, removing them had a very disappointing impact in my experience. As does delaying Fascism and Communism. I actually had my worst experience under these settings (although if I did proper testing I'm sure it would not be worse on average).

AI attitude

I spent a few weeks with an unpatched version of PTW and no internet access (to dowload the patch), so I decided to spend some of that time testing AI attitudes. This test was with the 1.01 version of PTW, so there might be a possibility that some of this was changed in a patch, but most likely...

forums.civfanatics.com

In my most recent game I was enjoying, with 24 Civs, cue the industrial era then give it about 10 turns and then within a space of 3 turns I had approximately 50 war declarations. Mainly by Republics and Democracies. The exact same timing as always but supercharged anger. It was so mad with the way new wars have no relationship to existing alliances. If it had been World War 2 it would have been like 'Japan has declared war on Italy', 'Britain has declared war on the Soviets'. It completely destroyed my enjoyment of the game I was playing.

So in desperation I have as my next step removed Military Alliances forever and replaced them with Trade Embargoes. Initially it gives things more of a Civ1 & 2 feel but I am not optimistic this will work well.

This change is on the assumption that with the editor I cannot introduce Military Alliances with one tech and remove them with a later tech (e.g. start of Industrial era).

 

[Fergei]

So, the solution for those that bemoan the level of warmongering from the early Industrial era onwards may be more straightforward than I thought. In the early Industrial era huge amounts of money circulates and creates leverage for military alliances. Mutual Protection Pacts then act as a sort of multiplier for wars, as you now get alliances before and after war declarations and this contributes to endless wars and changing allegiances. Trade Embargoes also create massive ill feeling around the same time. The combination of money, TEs, MAs and MPPs just seems too much. If you remove MAs and MPPs it is just too passive.

So far I am enjoying these simple changes:

1) remove military alliances entirely from the game
2) make both Trade Embargoes and Mutual Protection Pacts available at Writing.

In my experience levels of aggression remain similar to default settings in the first two eras and TEs are used sparingly by the AI. The AI does still have a bit of a tendency to dogpile against the weaker side in the war, even without an MPP.

The AI still does get more aggressive in the Industrial Era but unlike with default settings natural AI friendly relationships / factions stay fairly constant as we move into the Industrial era rather than being compeltely re-written and friends start killing each other for no discernable reason. So you get a more cohesive sort of narrative throughout the game. The world can also shake itself out of the 'endless war' cycle, at least for a few turns at a time.

In one game a supposed friendly Montezuma marched his army into my territory under RoP in a way that meant a war declaration was certain in a turn or two (he wasn't chasing barbs as I occupied all land on an extensive peninsula). He would crush me, but he accepted a MPP with gold attached and I effectively became a client state of his dreading this powerful loose cannon declaring war on someone. I prefer these pre-war alliances compared to the default of Montezuma declaring war on me (no matter what I try) and I bribe half the world to fight him on my behalf.

Later Montezuma made a MPP with the Byzantines, with the most powerful Civ Spain dominating the continent but placed between them both. Sure enough Montezuma next turn declared war on Spain and she is engulfed in a classic war on two fronts. It all made perfect sense and you can anticilpate a little what is around the corner when MPPs are announced. Maybe I am just being lucky but I think I have found the solution to my issue.

 

[vmxa]

Why would I want to remove the pressure and excitement of early aggression? Lebensraum is always a good reason.

 

[justanick]

Why would I want to remove the pressure and excitement of early aggression?

The early industrial age ist not exactly early. What Fergei seems aiming to change is that in the early industrial age there is a sudden uptake in aggression and that this uptake in aggression is (way) beyond reason.

The early industrial age also roughly coincides with the availability of cavalry, which makes warfare convenient. That is a good time for the human player to expand by force.

 

[vmxa]

It is not "sudden", it is expected. As you say it is not "early" and depending on the level can come sooner than the IND age. If they perceive you as weak, they can come at any point and the AI likes to have it be a party and invites friends. I say the more the merrier.

 

[Fergei]

Why would I want to remove the pressure and excitement of early aggression? Lebensraum is always a good reason.

I made a thread about making the early game more violent. Now I have aggression levels fairly consistence until the Industrial era.

[C3C] - Early game AI passivity

As part of my quest to make game settings that match my preferences I have now come towards targeting the issue of the AI generally not being interested in conflict until all easily available land has been grabbed by all the Civs (at least on Emperor, which is my preferred difficulty)...

forums.civfanatics.com

Apologies, when you said the AI was "too funny" in the OP I thought you were being disappointed with the game. I think it is disappointing and makes the game too easy because the AI trips over himself and often needlessly ruins their chances of a diplomatic or space victory.

Even though, as a primarily large land mass archipelago player, I consistently get the Civ madness appearing for the first time in the Industrial era, you are right to point out it can happen any time on a Pangea or Continent, so the Industrial Era won't feel so different.