ls612's C2C Units

@MoogleEmpMog

Hmm some good points. How about +15% production of those War Elephant type units with Copper or Iron. Sound good?

Absolutely! I've loved this mechanic since it first showed up (in AND or RoM, I believe, or maybe as far back as Legends of Revolution), and wish it, or a more extreme version of it, would be made ubiquitous. They probably need to have their base cost raised by 15% and the discount bring them in line with their current cost, that way they won't be an overly effective unit for Iron-owning civs to spam.

In general, I think it both makes more sense and would play better if strategic resources reduced hammer cost rather than locked what types of units were available. IRL, I don't know of any instance of a "resource embargo" shutting down a country's production - even in modern times, when embargoes are more widespread and more effective and resource demands are more severe, they make it difficult for a country to buy and sell goods, but aren't enough to shut down a country's access to anything with the possible exception of uranium. And even that doesn't seem to work.

You'd probably have to go deep into the ancient or maybe even prehistoric era to find examples of what Civ defines as a civ that are flatly unable to produce what Civ defines as a unit that they understood the technical and tactical requirements of. It might not be worth it for them because of the cost of imported resources, but they could do it.

The closest historical example I can think of to how Civ models strategic resources is the absence of horses and metal in the Americas. But once the natives of the Americas started fighting, trading and interacting with Europeans, horses and guns rapidly spread amongst them, to the point that the popular image of many North American natives is as expert horsemen! :o

In Civ terms, without "Horse" and "Sulphur" resources of their own, they weren't able to produce huge standing armies of cavalry and gunpowder units (and due to disease and differing starting populations, didn't have the population to), but the smaller number of units they did field would still be "Cuirassiers" and "Cavalry."

From a gameplay perspective, there are certain periods where the lack of a strategic resource, or worse, a series of strategic resources, can simply end a Civ. If you miss Copper, Horse and Iron, or Horse, Iron and Sulphur, that's potentially Game Over for the human and almost certain doom for an AI. The latter trio is especially vicious because the archery and siege units, which can keep a medieval civ viable at least on the defensive, are respectively phased out and start requiring the same resources as the main combat units.

I'd rather see, for example, a unit cost 200 hammers, -25% with Horses, -25% with Sulphur, rather than 100 hammers, requires Horses and Sulphur. Being the owner of Horse and Sulphur resources would still be a huge advantage, since you'd get the unit for half price (probably = its current price) while if you didn't have those resources, you'd get it for twice the price and thus have to invest significantly more production.

Actually, I have no idea if this is possible, but tying it to being on a trade route with a Civ that had the resource (not actually trading the resources on the trade screen, just being linked via routes) would probably represent it better. It would also allow you to use Mercantilism to shut down access to a resource you controlled ALL instances of in the known world, a sufficiently difficult goal that it's worth a significant reward.

Equipment will come into play to make them stronger with stronger materials as well.

Equipment ala Fall From Heaven? Didn't realize that was a planned addition. :(

I'm not at all a fan of that method, since it merely reduces the significance of the unrealistic and very swingy strategic resource method, rather than replacing it with something that makes more sense and plays better (faster construction with strategic resources).
 
Equipment ala Fall From Heaven? Didn't realize that was a planned addition.

I'm not at all a fan of that method, since it merely reduces the significance of the unrealistic and very swingy strategic resource method, rather than replacing it with something that makes more sense and plays better (faster construction with strategic resources).
We'll be handling it a bit differently than FFH2. It'll have a bit more bearing on a wider variety of unit statistics than FFH2 has to work with and flat out won't be nearly as simplistic. I intend far greater depth than I've seen in that system (though I haven't looked at it in a while and must admit they may have gone a bit deeper with it themselves since... I dunno...) In general, though, I thought it one of the more underdeveloped but brilliant elements of that mod.

Furthermore, it doesn't stop us using the faster construction with strategic resources method either.
 
We'll be handling it a bit differently than FFH2. It'll have a bit more bearing on a wider variety of unit statistics than FFH2 has to work with and flat out won't be nearly as simplistic. I intend far greater depth than I've seen in that system (though I haven't looked at it in a while and must admit they may have gone a bit deeper with it themselves since... I dunno...) In general, though, I thought it one of the more underdeveloped but brilliant elements of that mod.

Cool. :)

FFH2 itself does not go any further with equipment, but the Master of Mana modmod does, making individual type purchasable for each unit. It seemed overboard to me and perhaps in the wrong direction, but at the time I tried it my PC struggled to run the mod so I never delved too deeply. Actually, the way they handled resources in that was pretty interesting, IIRC.

It would be neat to eventually see a division between armament and tactics, with unit types representing new tactical doctrines and equipment promotions representing new weapons and equipment.

Furthermore, it doesn't stop us using the faster construction with strategic resources method either.

Better still. :)

(btw, my idea with the trade routes looks unclear now that I reread it. I was thinking that if YOU had the resource, you could build the unit - or equipment - for its current price. If you DIDN'T have the resource, but WERE connected to anyone who did via trade routes you could build it for 150% or 200% its normal price. If you didn't have it and neither did anyone you were trading with, you couldn't build it at all.)

EDIT: I'm definitely not suggesting this trade route thing as anything to be implemented in the near future. There's more than enough much more important stuff you're already working on. I just wanted to clarify what I meant by it.
 
@MoogleEmpMog

I would not go so far to make all units not require resources. For instance without the Europeans coming to America there would be no horses (and other livestock). Trade can account for the Native Americans getting guns and horses. Same can be done in C2C.

Though it might be cool if one could steal a resource too.
 
@ls612

Based on recent suggestions I would like to tweak the Organ Gun and Ribauldequin. Please make the following changes.

Ribauldequin
Req Tech: Metallurgy
Cost: 250
Strength: 15
Upgrades To: Organ Gun
Additional Stats: Can Only Defend

Organ Gun
Req Tech: Naval Cannons
Cost: 260
Strength: 20
Upgrades To: Gatling Gun
Additional Stats: Can Only Defend

Gatling Gun
Additional Stats: Can Only Defend

Thanks in advance! :goodjob:
 
@Hydro:

I like the idea of having Iron as a prereq for Classical era units, as IRL Iron was the difference between a civ being a great military power or not. There was no two ways around it, if you didn't have iron, you lost, and so you either got iron or traded for it. I've added Iron to the prereqs for all those Elephant units you listed.
 
@Hydro:

I like the idea of having Iron as a prereq for Classical era units, as IRL Iron was the difference between a civ being a great military power or not. There was no two ways around it, if you didn't have iron, you lost, and so you either got iron or traded for it. I've added Iron to the prereqs for all those Elephant units you listed.

Couldn't you just make them cost more hammers and give a big production bonus if you have iron? Iron as a requirement will delay the elephant units significantly, and by then you'll have access to light swordsmen which are arguably better.
 
Couldn't you just make them cost more hammers and give a big production bonus if you have iron? Iron as a requirement will delay the elephant units significantly, and by then you'll have access to light swordsmen which are arguably better.

These elephants are later than Light swordsmen on the tech tree (they have Str of 12 to 14 for the most part).
 
Something to consider:

Mounted horse and elephant units start with Commando promotion but camels, mammoths, chariots (+some others) do not. Should'n all of these have commando start as well.

Put ancient handcannon and flametrower national limit(15 or so). Kind of takes the feeling out of medival combat when traditional medival unit make up less than half of your army.

P.S. Can I adjust national unit limits somehow? Couldn't find it from CIV4UnitInfos or other XMLs.
 
@Hydro:

I like the idea of having Iron as a prereq for Classical era units, as IRL Iron was the difference between a civ being a great military power or not. There was no two ways around it, if you didn't have iron, you lost, and so you either got iron or traded for it. I've added Iron to the prereqs for all those Elephant units you listed.

"Realism" aside - the utter inability to acquire iron by the medieval period strikes me as ess realistic than ignoring it outright, much less making things cost more as you "import" small quantities - what about the gameplay effects of making the medieval elephants dependent on the same resource as all the other medieval units?

I've always found the Iron requirement to result in boring, unfun wars when the human player has it and the AI doesn't or vice versa, and dead (or worse, lingering but crippled) AIs when one of them has it and another doesn't. The human can compensate by leaning even more heavily on siege, which... I don't consider a good thing. It certainly isn't realistic! The AI can't cope at all.

In vanilla BTS and most mods, War Elephants are one of the very, very few units that sometimes break up that monotony. C2C's base Elephant Rider is weaker and medieval Iron-based units are stronger, so it can't fill the same role. Take away the promoted elephant units from non-Iron civs and they can't do it. If they have an aggressive neighbor who does have Iron, those Civs might as well be deleted in world builder, same as if they didn't have Elephants.

Increased production costs will make it very hard for a civ to become a great military power. That's already difficult to impossible with Elephants only, since the iron-mongering rival can always spam Pikemen. It would, however, allow that civ to have a chance to survive. And that's with a relatively rare resource.

Put ancient handcannon and flametrower national limit(15 or so). Kind of takes the feeling out of medival combat when traditional medival unit make up less than half of your army.

Please don't. These units aren't useful unless a civ has missed out on melee-boosting wonders or - once again - Iron, at which point they become very handy for fighting back against civs better equipped for medieval war.

As for their historical standing? I'm fairly sure greek fire projectors were used on land in the early-mid medieval period. AFAICT they were a land weapon first and only later deployed at sea, where they were more useful and famous. Firelances, which could be either of these units, were most certainly in use in China. Handcannon came into use in Europe and the Middle East in the high Middle Ages. These are traditional medieval units, they just aren't ones that Victorian painters were especially interested in, so they haven't come down to us as part of the popular conception of the era.
 
"Realism" aside - the utter inability to acquire iron by the medieval period strikes me as much less realistic than ignoring it outright, much less making things cost more as you "import" small quantities - what about the gameplay effects of making the medieval elephants dependent on the same resource as all the other medieval units?

I've always found the Iron requirement to result in boring, unfun wars when the human player has it and the AI doesn't or vice versa, and dead (or worse, lingering but crippled) AIs when one of them has it and another doesn't. The human can compensate by leaning even more heavily on siege, which... I don't consider a good thing. It certainly isn't realistic! The AI can't cope at all.

In vanilla BTS and most mods, War Elephants are one of the very, very few units that sometimes break up that monotony. C2C's base Elephant Rider is weaker and medieval Iron-based units are stronger, so it can't fill the same role. Take away the promoted elephant units from non-Iron civs and they can't do it. If they have an aggressive neighbor who does have Iron, those Civs might as well be deleted in world builder, same as if they didn't have Elephants.

Increased production costs will make it very hard for a Civ to become a great military power. That's already difficult to impossible with Elephants only, since the iron-mongering rival can always spam Pikemen. It would, however, allow that Civ to have a chance to survive. And that's with a relatively rare resource.

If you don't have iron, you are supposed to trade for it. That is what actually happened in history, peoples without Iron (or other valuable resources) either traded for it or got defeated. Maybe we need more iron on maps, but that would be unrelated to my units responsibilities.
 
You always have iron, is the point. Iron is to be derived in some degree of content from nearly ANY mined ore. Have you ever wondered what production a mine could possibly give if there's no 'resource' on that hill? The answer is a SMALL degree of anything... just not enough to trade or make FULL use of.

I'm on the fence with this. I see all sides.

But I don't think Elephant units should require iron. We'll be able to vary their STRENGTH considerably with equipment variations but the elephants themselves are the real key figure in that unit line. The point made about them being an alternative means to military strength in that era is extremely valid I think. If we say 'anyone who doesn't have iron' in that era is screwed, its going to be harder for AI civs too. Its too early to demand trading... I've seen entire continents unable to gain access to iron.

And I think what Bill is trying to say below here is that with so many map resources in play in C2C, making one of them a prereq to survival is just too much until later in the game (oil, uranium etc...) because they compete for space more now. What would've been a plot with Iron in vanilla may now instead be a plot with Salt. The greater numbers thin the possibility of getting a particular resource.
 
If you don't have iron, you are supposed to trade for it. That is what actually happened in history, peoples without Iron (or other valuable resources) either traded for it or got defeated. Maybe we need more iron on maps, but that would be unrelated to my units responsibilities.

yea the problem is due to 1:how heavy the game is 2: hight numbers of resources players play in medium maps and in this map you are not going to have too much iron
 
If you don't have iron, you are supposed to trade for it. That is what actually happened in history, peoples without Iron (or other valuable resources) either traded for it or got defeated. Maybe we need more iron on maps, but that would be unrelated to my units responsibilities.

Why and how does this make the game better?

Civ 4 makes resources a pass/fail, zero-sum game, which isn't remotely realistic. A civ that trades you Iron is probably losing access themselves (unless they're very large or very lucky). In reality a civ could trade enough iron to supply an ally's (or an enemy's enemy's) war effort without crippling itself or being one of the greatest iron producers in the world.

Does the AI even know to try? I've seen them try to get me to give them strategic resources, so hopefully they do trade aggressively for them with each other.

I'm not even saying to drop the Iron prerequisite from all medieval units, or even to disconnect it from the later elephants entirely. They would still be more expensive, resulting in fewer total units to throw into the fray, at least with Multiple Production on. They'd just give some non-Iron civs an alternative that would allow them some kind of offensive punch besides mass catapults.
 
I still disagree, most maps i've played on (I'm limited here by personal experience), have had enough iron to keep things competitive. I'll wait and see what Hydro says, but i still like having iron as a greatly important prereq.
 
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