Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Town Watchmen and Guard are Melee units that can defend cities well. They have +50% City Defense.
ls612's C2C Units
- Thread starter ls612
- Start date
Town Watchmen and Guard are Melee units that can defend cities well. They have +50% City Defense.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Well... I didn't realize they had been given those bonuses. I think it works but it does make their purpose overlap a bit between Law Enforcement and Military, though in that era I can see that making sense.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
In my cities I usually have 4 types of units (pre-gunpowder) ...
- Archer Type
- Spearman Type
- Town Watchmen Type
- Canine Type
Between those I can defend the city well, keep down crime and even keep a watch for Rogues. I will also sometimes have a Healer Type too (if i have enough money).
- Archer Type
- Spearman Type
- Town Watchmen Type
- Canine Type
Between those I can defend the city well, keep down crime and even keep a watch for Rogues. I will also sometimes have a Healer Type too (if i have enough money).
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I'm going to begin my rundown of what I would like to do to rebalance units after Thunderbrd's changes hit the SVN. This may be slightly confusing if you haven't been sent the changes, but in time it will make sense. Thunderbrd and Hydro are the two people I'm primarily seeking comment from.
Infantry (pre Gunpowder)
- High Armor (except for Ranged Units)
- Bonus vs Non-Animal Barbarians (except for Melee Units)
Axeman Line:
- High Pierce (Yes. Unit power is a lot of how hard they hit but pierce gets through armor well. In this case, we should not allow axes to completely clear the heaviest armors but should be very capable of outdoing Medium Armor levels. 'Axe Wielder' would be a subcombat class of its own to guide Axe equipment upgrades and to allow for promos that teach units how to use the methods and weaknesses of an axe against such opponents. However, rather than putting these values directly on the Axeman, we should put the puncture on the weapons they wield. Since the requirements for building a unit should roughly equate to the same requirements for said unit's weakest weapon form, we can measure increases in Puncture on this and other weapons via the weapon equipment promo itself.)
- Low Armor (I believe this should be considered 'medium' armor. Armorless, Light Armor, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, and Extreme Armor would all be SubCombat Classes of their own to guide the assignment of equipment upgrades. Axemen wouldn't have the weakest armors designed for stealth and speed but also wouldn't want to be further encumbered than Medium Armor, though the 'Heavy Axemen' unit may be able to break that concept line and progress to heavy. So again, the Armor value of the unit would be a matter of the Armor itself. Primarily, the unit brings to the table much of the same base data they currently do with Armor and Puncture primarily being a matter of their equipment promos.)
- Unyielding (Interesting. I like this. Boorish and refusing to yield to repel and knockback. A good idea to include some of that on this line. With Unyielding, 100% value will completely make any enemy repel or knockback completely useless so we should establish something like a base 20 for units that naturally have this kind of ability as 3 promo potentials should follow for adding further unyielding values at +25% each.)
Weakness of an Axe Unit should primarily be a low 'Precision', one of the new traits I'm adding now that wasn't yet mentioned (Precision counters Dodge... I'll explain more on that once its established in the code this week.) They swing a bit wild despite hitting hard. Their weapon and armor would both combine to reduce their Dodge a bit too which makes them a fairly easy target to hit.
So Axemen will hit hard and die fast, which is the feeling I want them to evoke
Spearman Line: (This would largely be considered the Polearm combat class to be assigned into subcombat definitions on these units. Polearm purposes varied a lot so the weapon should go a long ways towards defining the purpose of the unit. For example, Halberds were very strong for guardians and city defense troops while Bill Hooks and Lucerne Hammers were used to dismount and get through armor. In fact, a lot of Polearms were made in the ongoing arms race against improving heavy armor forms that would often only be useful on knights due to the fact that such 'Extreme Armor' such as Full and Field Plate would nearly eliminate all mobility without a mount. Pikes and spears such as were used in Phalanx formations in Greece were awesome at creating an initial defense line and that's where the (Fortified) Repel and Dig In could come in (but careful not to get extremely excessive with such values until trench warfare - buildings like walls and such will be able to add Repel to its units too and if Repel gets too strong (at least without fully developed castles) during the Middle Ages its going to be too overwhelming). Tridents would fall under this line too... which were awesome at disarming so would be great at anti-melee.
However, Classically, Medium Armor would be the best choice for field fighters, allowing them to not tire too greatly and giving them enough mobility to make quick adjustments with these rather unwieldy poles, while Heavy Armor would work for Guardian style pole arm fighters (since they didn't have to lug the stuff around without a mount.)
They would lack for precision, though not as much as an axe line, but would probably not face too great a dodge hindrance from their weapons, especially on the shorter spears (may even help a bit in that dept.)
As many which form a 'spear wall' would have their strongest ability to repel early in the fight, they'd make a good candidate for Early Repel values and promos.
Also, smaller spears would be throwable and thus would add the Hurling Weapon combatclass and some abilities much like javelineers early on. The longer polearms get, the less they'd be able to do this.
Enclose (the surround and destroy bonus that increases maximum surround and destroy when supporting) is also intended for this line as they can form a spike wall to keep defenders hedged in more effectively than most unit types can.
- High Armor (As stated above, should be Medium to Heavy depending on the purpose of the unit.)
- Lower Strength (careful not to under strength them too much, perhaps only one step less than the avg for their age.)
- Repel
- High Pierce (Agreed but make sure to base this on the equipments themselves. Note: on equipments if their LineID is the same AND their Line Value is the same, this is fine - just means that only one will be assigned. In such a case, it should be important to make sure a given city can only create one of these lateral competing but equally valuable equipments. I mention this here because many polearm types varied greatly in effect and form but not inequally, especially the closer time marched on towards gunpowder.
Note on Pierce in general... Only once gunpowder starts hitting the scene should Pierce values start taking a huge leap, making armor useless and more of a hindrance to dodge which becomes the only real defense capable of fighting guns. Early guns would have very weak Precision values but they would still pierce any Renaissance era armor with ease. Only recently, with Kevlar, are we finding armors worthwhile again.)
- Dig In
Weakness should be shielded units (a SubCombat class many LIGHT axe and Single-Handed blade wielders would possess.) in particular. Shields are REALLY good at deflecting the first attack from a spear style opponent, allowing you to close the gap and start making their heavy pole a hindrance against them. Axes can also be used to hack off the spearhead so would probably get a benefit against them (vs melee as is should be sufficient) and Two-Handed Sword wielders were primarily put to field to do the same, so such weapon wielders should have some specifically anti-Polearm strength. Also, Hurling Weapon wielders would be good at getting close enough to hurl with deadly accuracy while making the unwieldiness of the poles work against these units. Thus, some weakness against Hurled weapons should apply.
I would like to reduce the combat strength of spearmen so that they will be balanced with the armor and pierce bonuses. Their Cav bonus can stay, but Spear units will be mostly the opposite of Axemen, slow and tough bricks.
Javelin/Skirmisher Line:(Hurled Weapon wielders (don't forget Stone Throwers, Hatchet throwers etc in here.)
- Very High Puncture (Actually, a new concept in design here is Power Attacks - makes the first attacks from the unit much stronger than the norm. Puncture will certainly be high for these but thereafter they'd be switching mostly to melee so should be considered to have sidearms or retaining their last as a shortspear or hatchet or whatever. At this point, puncture should be fairly medium so that would be the base setting. But for those first throwing attacks, High puncture is a good idea... much stronger at breaking through armor than lighter arrows in most cases.) Obviously, subcombats go deeper in layers here and in these other categories to further define the weapon style of use down to what can be assigned in weapon equipment promos. SO earlier complained that Rogues had been changed to melee... they'd be Throwing Weapon units and Light Blade units to represent this and as such their weapons wouldn't be so great with puncture but much better than the standard throwing unit for precision.
- High Early Withdrawal (I would not make them HIGH early withdrawal. I don't see a problem with having some but Early withdrawal is extremely effective at even a moderate withdrawal value. Even a 20% Early Withdrawal combined with a 20% Withdrawal value is quite effective. As they aren't an extremely fast unit as a mounted would be, I'd be careful here. However, this is probably best represented much as you've stated, fairly good early withdrawal but fairly low withdrawal odds.)
[*]Armor should be light as mobility is a chief concern for these units.
[*]Dodge should be higher as they are well trained at avoiding hits on approach and exit.
[*]Precision should vary greatly on the particular weapon but should be one of their lower traits, making it harder for them to land their hits.- Bonus vs Elephants
- Bonus vs other Megafauna (bears, Bison, Mammoths, girrafes)(these kinda make sense as it takes a lot of piercing depth to hit vitals on these types.)
Javelins currently counter Archers, which I think is a mistake. Archers have far longer range in most cases, and they should be what counters Javelineers. Jav units will be fragile but deadly against heavily armored units, and can get away quickly from danger. Bring Cav to counter them. (Or anything else that can pursue such as canine units. Javelins currently counter archers as a proxy for their mobility (dodge) so once this gets into full swing, I believe they should actually be as suggested here, perhaps even a bit weak vs archers, though this is probably best simply depicted by the fact that their armor will be weak and arrows would suffer from somewhat low puncture values.)
Archer Line:
- Bonus to City Defense
- Dig In (definitely!)
[*]Lets not forget first strikes to represent range and speed of fire.
[*]Precision should be quite high. But puncture should be some of the lowest among comparable era units. (with the exception of crossbowmen who'd have extremely high puncture but little to no first strike as their reload rate sucks)
[*]Armors should be Light - Medium at worst to keep dodge values up and senses at peak for the best accuracy.
[*]Some repel should be valid here (base repel not by fortification) as they are good at moving to new positions, staying out of range of attackers and generally playing stick and move tactics until their enemy grows too frustrated to carry on. City buildings should be adding by combat class repel and archers are their primary targets for this bonus.
[*]With Flaming Arrows they'd get knockback ability for those 'Attack' style archers.
[*]With Poisoned Arrows of many varieties, they can really deliver hell on an enemy while ending the fight non-lethally with a repel.- Bonus vs Elephants (Actually... I think they'd struggle here... think of the scene with the Oliphants in Return of the King and how many dang arrows were in that creature before it was finally fallen (admittedly by a very well placed point blank arrow shot... VS the rider you're thinking? I can understand that concept I suppose.))
- Bonus vs other Megafauna (bears, Bison, Mammoths, girrafes)
Still the city defense unit of choice, Archers can fortify and not be moved behind walls. (Then don't forget that Unyielding can be used against knockback, although primarily knockback is FOR getting archers and such to leave their excellent defensive positions... So perhaps some skill access to a minor Unyielding promo line for archers is in order?)
Macemen Line
- High Puncture (Yes... most armors didn't do too well against these high impact hits. But low precision on chain weapons, quite high precision on non-chain maces. However, Such a chain-weapon wielding unit should be absolutely amazing against shielded units as the chain based weapon, although initially employed due to the poor peasants needing to use their wheat threshers in battle, was found to be an awesome way to get around shields. Just a straight combat bonus vs shielded units would suffice. A minor vs melee bonus could imply the chain weapon usage for disarmament.)
- Medium Armor (Agreed. Mobility was a value in both chain and non-chain variations here. Both were quite heavy weapons to wield, perhaps at times to the point that it could begin to lessen the ability to dodge, particularly among the chain weapon wielders.)
- Bonus to City Attack (and defense I think, at least for the non-chain weapons... but not quite as much perhaps. Doors could be bashed through with such weapons but the light 'thumper on a stick' mace was a very good weapon to use in tight spaces while the chain was terrible at fighting indoors.)
Balanced units designed for hitting Cities, Macemen will be a good jack-of-all Trades. They will get murdered by Cav though (see below).
Don't forget the Shields. If shielded, units should have anti-archery and anti-polearm benefits. (shields themselves should also offer some added armor and dodge but lessen precision a little. Some mace classes could certainly be shielded like many sword classes.
And as for Swords, they should be the best overall at precision and dodge (parry). They should also make for great urban fighters both in attack and defense as these weapons were light and extremely motile and a wielder could command a lot of control and use them to use the urban environment against its foes (think dropping chandeliers and such.) They were great weapons all in all but were just under par for Puncture as most armors were particularly designed to face these dreaded weapons of skill. Strength should be a bit high on Sword wielder units though as it represents both general fighting skill and damage on attack.
Cavalry (pre-Gunpowder)
Melee Cavalry:
- Knockback
- Early Withdraw
- Bonus vs Ranged units (archers and javelineers)
- Pursuit
Everything needed to destroy melee units (except Spearmen, which get a bonus against cav) in one unit. Make sure to guard them, as the still won't get defensive bonuses.
Ranged Cav:
- High Early Withdrawal (and in contrast to throwing weapon types, strong chance of withdrawal as well. Take care not to ever establish early withdraw too high though as if it gets up to 100% the unit becomes nearly worthless to attack with outside of its initial first strikes.)
- Pursuit (Probably quite good at this yes - in fact, as they'd be some of the fastest units of the age, much better than heavier mounted types, though canines are intended to be the strongest pursuers as they can track with smell when sight is lost.)
- High First Strikes (As archery units with range and speed of fire, some first strike would be good here yes.)
- SAD bonuses (don't remember what they are called)(Agreed. Wolf pack tactics could make these extremely lethal.)
Ranged Cavalry will be best used en masse and in a surounding position. With large bonuses to SAD mechanics, lots of First Strikes, and Withdrawal chances they will be very dangerous in an open area. Don't get them caught in hills or forests though, as they are fragile and will keep their penalties in those terrains.
Elephants:
- Stampede (At least initially and from some promos that may make them more savage but they should be trainable OUT of this double-edged ability - see below for more)
- Overrun (probably the strongest at this in this era, yes.)
- Knockback (I don't think this should apply here - rather, I think the collateral works well. Knockback should be kept to fire/gas attacks due to the wording on its messages and the intention of its application. They should also have a strong degree of unyielding as they are not ones to be easily repelled.)
Yes, and this includes Bison, Bears, Mammoths, and other larger megafauna. Zebras and Girraffes and Deer go with either Ranged or Melee Cav though. These will wreck you if you aren't prepared, but can and will go berserk in combat, so don't use them against Archers or Javelineers. (This is why the bonus there against these units? I figured it was their ranged ability to take down the rider... Berserk in combat is exactly what stampede is already all about. But you can also get 'berserking' promos that make the unit fight stronger and stronger every round of battle AND with each attack - these would increase reasons for the unit to have stampede but would give benefits to units as they use the ability. I'd hate to be the rider on this sort of savagely trained animal!)
Your mounted outlook sounds about right aside from noted comments. But keep a few things in mind, much of which seems you're already considering but I feel is worthy of mention nevertheless...:
Only mounted can really make use of the heaviest armors so there's really two types of mounted primarily, fast and nimble and heavy and hard hitting. Fast and Nimble, like mounted archers for example, should be masters of withdrawal, come in, hit (possibly with poisoned arrows) and get the hell out - goal: take little to no damage and wear down frontal defenses. Heavy types would be field combatants extroardinaire... extreme armor, though little to no dodge, but absolutely overbearing to those on foot, especially if their mounts are equally armored (barding equipments). Although somewhat slow for mounted units, they'd still be extremely mobile on the field and would be great with an initial charge (a PowerAttack from a Lance style weapon equipment).
Be careful with stampede. In general, a big savage animal like an elephant, buffalo, mammoth, bear or rhino should start with Stampede as a base ability of the unit but with a promo can overcome it by advanced training, thus when the unit has earned the right to be considered valuable by leveling and surviving, one might want to calm their animal to reduce the risk of a stampede gone bad. Although stampede is powerful, its an out of control kiss of death for the unit if not used with great care. Each condition that adds a source of cause for having stampede needs to be equally countered with another condition that removes it. So you can have promos that make the animal even more savage and thus give a second source of stampede that must be then countered by two causes for stampede to be removed.
That's good for now, I'll go into Industrial/Modern land units tomorrow.
All that said though, its nice to see you are embracing the mechanisms and showing a desire to really push to get them in play and active quickly.
I also include some axes to defend against melee attacks nicely. But I think the mace line should also be a good city defender as well as city attacker. I would think Town Watch would be the 'Sword Style' urban fighter so I can see them being functional as melee city defense too.
Some Anti-Mounted polearms such as we see with the standard 'spearmen' style are great, but we should also have, in later middle ages, the halberd style city guard units that are superb at getting through armors and defending in urban environs. Think 'Gate Guards'... they almost always had pole weapons so they could cross poles to form barriers (thus were good at holding door and gateway positions). These were kinda like mixes between axes and spears, far more wieldy than an axe(Precision) and more damaging than a single handed sword (power), designed specifically to be like can openers (puncture) and were decent against mounted as they had the reach to get to the rider but were shorter than pikes which were made to form anti-attack walls against charges from mounted units. They were still less wieldy (Precision) than a sword, were subject to slow response times (lower dodge) and such guards often wore Heavy Armor such as Breastplates over chainmail as mobility wasn't their purpose. They also did not have the benefits of shields as they wielded these polearms with two hands.
I'm getting redundant now I think. All just thoughts to consider here.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
On the subject of Elephants/Mammoths I was thinking not only can they stomp but they can gore with their tusks (or tusk swords). Thus they would have features like ...
- Stomp
- Gore
- Trample
- Pick Up (such as picking up with their trunks)
- Destroy (as in pushing down walls and buildings with their sheer brute strength)
Link to video.
- Stomp
- Gore
- Trample
- Pick Up (such as picking up with their trunks)
- Destroy (as in pushing down walls and buildings with their sheer brute strength)
Link to video.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
This is all early discussion regarding what we're going to do with the changes I'm bringing in soon (possibly this coming weekend) with the Combat Mod.
What kind of game effect are you looking for here exactly?
Sounds like a good tag to increase chances for critical injuries... hmm... looks like you've just added another tag to the Combat Mod, Hydro! Well done
(How would this differ from Stampede? I've left this term open for potential use still...)
(such as picking up with their trunks) (Not seeing the game effect here outside of 'Elephant Workers'...)
(This could be implemented by giving them the same basic ability as log rams without all the limitations - can bombard defenses. The other side of this is why they have overrun (which allows them to ignore a % of their opponent defender's fortification bonuses = to the value of their Overrun total.) Perhaps we should include that ability on a number of units... or maybe we're implying that we need a new ability tag here for allowing units to break down city defense WHEN they attack, rather than just making it teardown on bombard attacks?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Thunderbrd
1. Stop could be possibly a large Bludgeon Damage with the fact that neither unit can move. Because one is pinned down and the other is stomping. Note one could possibly dodge the stomp too.
2. Cool! Bison or Deer riders could possibly get this too. Since they have Horns and Antlers.
3. Yeah its probbly just the same thing.
4. Well in the video I provided they picked up the enemy troops and they pulled them apart. They could also potentially throw an enemy too. Thus using them as a projectile to hit other troops. Thus maybe you might want to have "Throw" which can make non Archery/Siege units able to throw projectiles if engaged in battle with a unit. Note this unit would have to be smaller thus no throwing other elephants or horses.
5. Yeah sort of a "city bombard" mixed with "pillage tile", but no money from the "pillaged" tile.
6. In games like D&D they have Piercing, Bludgeoning or Slashing for types of attacks. Are you going to have the same? Also they have element attacks. While most would not apply to us I know that some might such as ...
- Fire (Arsonist, Flamethrower, etc)
- Poison (Or even Acid)
- Gunpowder
- Explosives (ex Grenades, Mines)
- Electricity
- Sonic
- Non-Lethal (Not sure if we need this)
- Future Weapons (ex. Laser, Plasma, Anti-Matter, etc)
1. Stop could be possibly a large Bludgeon Damage with the fact that neither unit can move. Because one is pinned down and the other is stomping. Note one could possibly dodge the stomp too.
2. Cool! Bison or Deer riders could possibly get this too. Since they have Horns and Antlers.
3. Yeah its probbly just the same thing.
4. Well in the video I provided they picked up the enemy troops and they pulled them apart. They could also potentially throw an enemy too. Thus using them as a projectile to hit other troops. Thus maybe you might want to have "Throw" which can make non Archery/Siege units able to throw projectiles if engaged in battle with a unit. Note this unit would have to be smaller thus no throwing other elephants or horses.
5. Yeah sort of a "city bombard" mixed with "pillage tile", but no money from the "pillaged" tile.
6. In games like D&D they have Piercing, Bludgeoning or Slashing for types of attacks. Are you going to have the same? Also they have element attacks. While most would not apply to us I know that some might such as ...
- Fire (Arsonist, Flamethrower, etc)
- Poison (Or even Acid)
- Gunpowder
- Explosives (ex Grenades, Mines)
- Electricity
- Sonic
- Non-Lethal (Not sure if we need this)
- Future Weapons (ex. Laser, Plasma, Anti-Matter, etc)
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
@ls612,
In current game just reached garrisons and have built the 1st ones. Guard dogs also available.
But, Guard does not Upgrade to City Guard now. In one city the build list had shown Guard after building new Garrison only TW shows up in build list. Uh Oh! No City Guards and reverted to 1st unit in chain. Not good. Savegame in Bug thread shows this. One caveat though is that this game is a 3509 .dll build with a 3512 update. I held off on further updating because of the rash of reported CTDs from 3513 to 3535.
JosEPh
In current game just reached garrisons and have built the 1st ones. Guard dogs also available.
But, Guard does not Upgrade to City Guard now. In one city the build list had shown Guard after building new Garrison only TW shows up in build list. Uh Oh! No City Guards and reverted to 1st unit in chain. Not good. Savegame in Bug thread shows this. One caveat though is that this game is a 3509 .dll build with a 3512 update. I held off on further updating because of the rash of reported CTDs from 3513 to 3535.
JosEPh
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
1. I'll think more on that for a bit. Civ's quickly resolved battle system makes it tough to really bring home what's happening in a combat so it takes a lot of work to figure out how to make an effect as entertaining in play as it ought to be. So systems must be evocative from the player observer's distant and approximated viewpoint. Thus I'm trying not to get to tricksy with combat effects that manipulate things inside the scope of the rapidly resolved civ combat unless it can make an obvious and big difference in how things played out when you look at the combat log.
So some ways units fight are still approximated into the strength and general combat ability of the unit. Perhaps what should become a part of the 'next round' of combat mods down the line would be a size definition on units and Stomp would be a promo line for large units that increases their strength drastically against units smaller than they are. Perhaps not as definitive as what you suggested there, but the idea with much of these adjustments are to evoke the imagination to fill the blanks anyhow. (If stomp changed the animation graphic of a unit in combat that would carry the strongest possible impact too.)
2. And Rhinos of course
Gore would become a line of promos available to such savage attack styles like horns, and possibly even axe lines. It would improve chances of rendering a critical injury on the defender... I may have to adjust my take on criticals now - I was going to make it like afflicting in that it takes place at the end of the combat, but perhaps I need to make it possible to receive a critical injury every round (with an EXTREMELY low chance each round though...) I'll probably make the base chance of receiving a critical injury something like 1/10th of the damage taken. Most damages stretch between 5 and 20 or so so this means .5 - 2% chance range per round of combat which seems appropriate. Modified by Gore and perhaps other promo lines which have an iCriticalHit value representing a percentage increase in the chance per round you inflict damage of inflicting a critical.Criticals, once inflicted, will be an ever developable list of affliction promotions and it will randomly select one out of the list without weighting any particular selection. Criticals would be like Broken Leg, or Busted Ribs, or Deep Gash... etc...
3. I was thinking about trample earlier... I realized it could be an effect where once you've dealt a certain amount of damage (100 - the trample damage), you 'withdraw' (or rather move on through) and go on to attack the next best defender. This would make the ability an advanced and more controlled version of Stampede. I'd need it to have a second value though to determine the maximum # of such attacks it would make. I'll save it for additional Combat Mod addons to come but its very feasible to do this.
4. This'll need a bit more thought but would probably be contingent on setting up the size categories of units first.
5.Part of an additional combat mod installment to come is a plan for a 'destructive' tag to go on some units that makes it so that when they attack a city, a local building is randomly targeted and must check against possible destruction based on that building's value for that (for when cities are taken) vs the destructive power of the unit. An advanced version for siege would be to target specific buildings this way when bombarding. This destructive value could also become a percentage chance to destroy an improvement on a tile you're attacking too (which would mean I should put a toughness value on improvements too...).
I could also work into that plan a tag that makes units reduce city % defense when they attack (in case you get a bit too impatient to wait a round to clear out that last bit you're cats couldn't quite get rid of.)
6.At the moment, there's no plan to really fully differentiate unit damage types much beyond some additional effects that may be encountered with certain types of damage.
Flame wielding, explosive and toxic gas units would have Knockback to force defenders out of their defensive positions, eliminating fortification bonuses and forcing defenders in an open field setting to flee if possible.
Poison isn't really damage but an infliction of an affliction promotion on the enemy: effects can be extremely varied.
I didn't find it necessary in the scope of civ to get into piercing/bludgeoning/slashing (at least not yet) as simply working in Puncture vs Armor and Precision vs Dodge worked quite well to encapsulate those things with enough variety. Perhaps down the road once those have been fully balanced into the unit scheme we can look at further complexity.
I have an idea for cold damage to reduce precision and dodge values but its a rough concept at the moment and probably won't make it quite into this first combat mod segment.
Most other forms of damage you mentioned there aren't widely used throughout history, with perhaps the exception of acid which could be designated as an anti-armor poison. The future could start really opening up those options so perhaps more to come there such as electricity weapons causing a stun effect etc...
Also, one way we COULD define the differences in Slashing, Piercing and Bludgeoning would be again, Subcombats. Make them Combat Classes and give armors specific modifiers against those types. AND/OR make general armor types like 'Chain/Leather/Plate etc...' combat classes (you can add a combat class to a unit when it gets a promotion and it can lose that combat class when that promotion goes away or is overridden. And then give each damage type standard bonuses and penalties vs given armor types.
If you want to arrange that it will be possible. There aren't tags for Puncture, Armor, Precision or Dodge modifiers VS particular combat class types (maybe down the road) but general combat modifiers vs combat class types can be given to various equipment promos of course.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Yeah damage a cities buildings or the improvements your standing on while fighting and not having to take a separate round to "pillage" or "bombard" would be nice.
Yeah having a unit stunned for a round where they could not attack would be cool. Also some sort of trap or net to where they cannot move but still attack would be interesting too.
That would be amazing if it could be done. Since different armor protects against different types of attacks. Such as Chainmail works well against piercing and slashing, but you are still going to get hurt from bludgeoning. Likewise even full plate is not going to help from guns (except maybe very early gunpowder). And for modern units you could use kevlar and other such modern armor.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I'm saying it can be done with the way the Combat Mod coding is designed already. The combat mod will open up the ability for (there's a LOT more of course but this is what's pertinent to this subject):
1) Multiple combat class definitions on a given unit
2) Combat classes to be added by promotions
3) When promos are removed, the combat class goes away as well. (I have a bit of programming still to force promos on a unit that are made invalid by removing a combat class to also be removed from the unit (and if xp earned gives the ability to reselect a new one to replace it) but I oughta have that worked out this week.
4) promos still being quite capable of being made dependent on combat classes means you have a new dimension to designing access chains.
So my suggestion there was really just explaining how you could establish damage type modifiers with the existing system.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Regarding the TW (They are everywhere in the game), mainly guarding worker(s)??
The other problem i see is that WITH Llama's, do you get the "mountaineering" to go with them, because its like 30 techs more ahead yet? and no way they are that far ahead
The other problem i see is that WITH Llama's, do you get the "mountaineering" to go with them, because its like 30 techs more ahead yet? and no way they are that far ahead
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
The other problem i see is that WITH Llama's, do you get the "mountaineering" to go with them, because its like 30 techs more ahead yet? and no way they are that far ahead
Yes, Llama units get the Mountaineering Promotion. But so does the Pack Mule and some special Culture Units.
So yeah if you want to get across some peaks, build some llamas.
EDIT: From what I recall the culture units that have it are ...
- Dob Dob (Tibet)
- Lighting Warrior (Zapotec)
- Chasquis (Quechua)
- Swiss Pikeman (Swiss)
There might be another but I don't remember.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Regarding the TW (They are everywhere in the game), mainly guarding worker(s)??
The other problem i see is that WITH Llama's, do you get the "mountaineering" to go with them, because its like 30 techs more ahead yet? and no way they are that far ahead
That has been fixed, you now need the Llama resource to build the Pack Llama.
OK, my suggestion list is 12 pages long and still nowhere near done. In case you want to look at it it can be found here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kl_KU98YQSwoeCuHTjzXtY-Pr4_riFwajXFgOwDFOmI/edit
The further down the list, the less final the contents are and there are still many things missing from it, but IMHO it's already worth a look.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kl_KU98YQSwoeCuHTjzXtY-Pr4_riFwajXFgOwDFOmI/edit
The further down the list, the less final the contents are and there are still many things missing from it, but IMHO it's already worth a look.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@intlidave
I actually feel the same way and would like many of the units to have generic names like they were in RoM/AND. Its only the Aviation mod that brought new units into the game. I have no problem with them being renamed into generic names (unless they are specific culture units such as the Panzer for German culture). The main reason we have not is that I have no idea what to rename them to.
I believe this has already been changed by ls612.
Not much has been done with Tanks since the times of RoM/AND so I am open to suggestions. I will wait to see what the others think.
Before we could not have 2 buildings requirements for units, but now we can. So yes I agree with this. ls612. please add the cannon forge as a requirement for the Da Vinci Tank.
I don't know. I rather like the stats for this. it has kept me alive in one game where the AI was more powerful than me. It was the only thing keeping me from getting overrun.
Well in real life this was never used because it got stuck in the mud. It was just too heavy. However in the alt-timeline we assume this version CAN work. It also is linked to Dieselpunk. However your changes I suppose are acceptable as long as the Armored Warfare tech requirement is removed.
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I will review more of the document later. Thanks for doing this.
I actually feel the same way and would like many of the units to have generic names like they were in RoM/AND. Its only the Aviation mod that brought new units into the game. I have no problem with them being renamed into generic names (unless they are specific culture units such as the Panzer for German culture). The main reason we have not is that I have no idea what to rename them to.
I believe this has already been changed by ls612.
Not much has been done with Tanks since the times of RoM/AND so I am open to suggestions. I will wait to see what the others think.
Before we could not have 2 buildings requirements for units, but now we can. So yes I agree with this. ls612. please add the cannon forge as a requirement for the Da Vinci Tank.
I don't know. I rather like the stats for this. it has kept me alive in one game where the AI was more powerful than me. It was the only thing keeping me from getting overrun.
Well in real life this was never used because it got stuck in the mud. It was just too heavy. However in the alt-timeline we assume this version CAN work. It also is linked to Dieselpunk. However your changes I suppose are acceptable as long as the Armored Warfare tech requirement is removed.
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I will review more of the document later. Thanks for doing this.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@intlidave
Ok now for a few more ...
Seems to already be at 36. So yeah.
I am not quite sure what you mean. We do have the Dreadnaughts which are like huge tanks. Could you show a picture?
That seems like a drastic change. Afforess specifically made units have a wide Strength difference as you go further in time. Thus preventing spearmen defeating tanks.
Also I like the existing model.
Ok that makes sense the stagger the strengths of the tanks. Speed Change seems reasonable.
Sounds ok.
Ok. Should it be faster than a Medium tank too?
Sounds cool.
Also sounds fine.
Probably a good idea. In addition all Tanks should requires Oil Products OR Biofuel.
I like this a lot. I will see if I can get a graphic made for it.
Good call. I like the way you are thinking.
Sounds reasonable.
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So far I am liking most all of your changes. Great job on these. I will post some more responses later.
Ok now for a few more ...
Seems to already be at 36. So yeah.
I am not quite sure what you mean. We do have the Dreadnaughts which are like huge tanks. Could you show a picture?
That seems like a drastic change. Afforess specifically made units have a wide Strength difference as you go further in time. Thus preventing spearmen defeating tanks.
Also I like the existing model.
Ok that makes sense the stagger the strengths of the tanks. Speed Change seems reasonable.
Sounds ok.
Ok. Should it be faster than a Medium tank too?
Sounds cool.
Also sounds fine.
Probably a good idea. In addition all Tanks should requires Oil Products OR Biofuel.
I like this a lot. I will see if I can get a graphic made for it.
Good call. I like the way you are thinking.
Sounds reasonable.
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So far I am liking most all of your changes. Great job on these. I will post some more responses later.
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