ls612's C2C Units
- Thread starter ls612
- Start date
Maybe we should add an Upgrade Preparation property to cities. Some buildings add to it, traits may add to it and there is a basic gain per turn. It has some decay so you can't store it up indefinitely (but you can have storage capacity from buildings that is excempt from decay).
Whenever you upgrade a unit, it uses up Upgrade Preparation proportional to the amount of money you pay and you can't upgrade if there is not enough in the city.
Whenever you upgrade a unit, it uses up Upgrade Preparation proportional to the amount of money you pay and you can't upgrade if there is not enough in the city.
Oh, I forgot about Peace Maker in my last post:
This sucker has Splash 20! That means it will nuke a whoopin 1681 squares. That’s equivalent to 186,7 ICBMs! Granted, it will nuke a lot of useless terrain, but this also means you can launch the nuke outside someone’s borders and still hit a dozen cities. I’m not sure if such an over-the-top unit can ever be balanced, but for the time being, I’d increase its cost to awesome-but-impractical levels.
Suggestion: Increase build cost to ~300,000 hammers.
Also expect a giant post of doom (and possibly several) during this weekend about Infantry.
This sucker has Splash 20! That means it will nuke a whoopin 1681 squares. That’s equivalent to 186,7 ICBMs! Granted, it will nuke a lot of useless terrain, but this also means you can launch the nuke outside someone’s borders and still hit a dozen cities. I’m not sure if such an over-the-top unit can ever be balanced, but for the time being, I’d increase its cost to awesome-but-impractical levels.
Suggestion: Increase build cost to ~300,000 hammers.
Also expect a giant post of doom (and possibly several) during this weekend about Infantry.
Desolator
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2009
- Messages
- 107
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Why? Things like this Splash idea is just not usable. It's just a fantasy for someone who likes to be destructive. Most players can't even make it to the Modern Era in this mod anymore. Much less to where you would even consider using this idea.
JosEPh
I don't agree that it is unrealistic. If the turn scale was shorter (on the day or week scale), yes. But turns cover whole years, so there is a lot of detail that is getting abstracted away.
But then you have a much more developed infrastructure. At that point, it seems strange that units take so long to get where they are going.
You can't have on timescale that makes (realistic) sense for both units and technological progress (unless you wan to change to games with a million plus turns and tech rates of maybe hundreds to a thousand or so turns per tech!). Because of that you just need to forget about the units of time in relation to combat/movement and think of it only in relation to progress.
Praetyre
King
You know, I got to (jokingly) thinking about this one, and I've got a plan that might suit the Time Lords and vampires among us;
It's actually 1,004,200 turns long, but I think that's an acceptable margin of error for an unusable gamespeed. Put in 1000 turns a day, and you'll make it all the way through in just 3 years! My original plan actually worked out to a much more modest 684,200 turns, which is under 2 years. Aside from the obvious time sink, the bigget flaw I can see in it it's the disproportionate turns Prehistoric gets next to other speeds and Renaissance, Modern and Transhuman's tininness, but that's an issue even in my comparatively tiny private 30,800 turn custom Eternity.
Spoiler :
It's actually 1,004,200 turns long, but I think that's an acceptable margin of error for an unusable gamespeed. Put in 1000 turns a day, and you'll make it all the way through in just 3 years! My original plan actually worked out to a much more modest 684,200 turns, which is under 2 years. Aside from the obvious time sink, the bigget flaw I can see in it it's the disproportionate turns Prehistoric gets next to other speeds and Renaissance, Modern and Transhuman's tininness, but that's an issue even in my comparatively tiny private 30,800 turn custom Eternity.
That would be only fun letting AIs battle it out and look in now and then what the state is.
Praetyre
King
That's give you 26k for Chalcolithic, 39k for Bronze, 16.9k for Classical, 13k for Medieval, 4550 for Renaissance, 1200 for Industrial, 600 for Modern and Transhuman and 1500 for Galactic. Leaving aside the impracticality of it all, that gives you one hell of a discrepancy between eras in terms of turn number, whereas my 30,400 turn plan gives you about 3000 turns for every era save Galactic, which is intentionally doubled for a variety of reasons, one of which is the likelihood of the era being split into suberas in future.
i agree even if i thing industrial era should be a bit bigger because its the most interesting era
Infantry - Pre-Musketman
Since there are two progenitor units - Stone Thrower and Brute, we have two basic lines: Ranged and Melee. But very quickly, they split into many other lines that rejoin at the Musketman.
Pre-Musketman infantry can thus be (roughly) summed up by the following table:
The horizontal axis describes the approximate era (Bronze refers to both Ancient and Classical) and Strength typical of units in it , while the vertical describes the type of weapon used.
The table doesnt cover the earliest units (pre-stone tool ones)
Since this part contains A LOT of national units, I will address those only in some cases. So without further ado, lets get started:-
Swordsmen
Used as a base point to compare other units against. Nothing special here.
Spearmen
There are two units in this class available in the Stone Age (kind of, Wood Spearman is technically pre-stone age) , TWO again in Bronze Age and none in the Renaissance.
Wood Spearman
This unit is nearly identical to the Stone Spearman. IMO it would be to make it a starting point for both the Javelin and Spear lines, each of which could then go in their own direction.
Suggestion: upgrades into Stone Spearman AND Atl-Atl
Stone Spearman
Suggestion: Remove upgrade into Atl-Atl (see above)
Spearman
The decision to let Spearman upgrade into Light Swordsman strikes me as a little odd, since their roles are very different. Wouldnt Axemen be better for this?
Suggestion: Remove upgrade into Swordsman and give this upgrade option to Axeman and Maceman, upgrades into Heavy Spearman
Phalanx
Bonuses of this unit are inconsistent with other Spear units.
Suggestions: remove +50% bonus vs Melee and +100% bonus vs Chariots, add +50% bonus vs Wild animals and Mounted units, increase Strength to 6.
Pikeman
This unit should be moved up the tech tree and have its stats adjusted accordingly.
Suggestions: Requires Armor Crafting and Invention, increase Strength to 12, upgrades into Musketman
Landsknecht
This units graphics are perfect for plugging a hole in the Axe branch, so it should be moved there (see below). This does rob HRE of its unique unit, but there are many possible replacements (personally I like this one, but any Teutonic/Gothic type knight, riding or walking, will do http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9948 )
Swiss Pikeman
Should be moved up the tech tree, just like the Pikeman.
Suggestions: Requires Armor Crafting and Invention, increase Strength to 12, upgrades into Musketman
Silat
A little atypical spear unit that should also be moved up the Tech tree a bit.
Suggestions: Requires Martial Arts, increase Strength to 10, upgrades into Musketman
Heavy Spearman (Heavy Pikeman)
This unit uses a spear, hence the change of name. Also it would look weird to have
Heavy Pikeman before the normal one. This unit should be available a little sooner.
Suggestion: Requires Smithing, upgrades into Pikeman
Axemen
There is a hole in their line that needs filling.
Gallic Warrior
A little too strong given how early he is available. Also has rather unusual abilities for an axe unit.
Suggestion: Lower Strength to 6, add +25% vs Melee
Heavy Axeman
This unit is suited for plugging the Medieval hole.
Suggestion: Lower Strength to 9, requires Smithing
Halberdier (new unit, kinda)
With Heavy Axeman moved down, this unit will plug the hole at the end of Axe branch. It uses graphics of the Landsknecht.
Stats: Strength 12, +50% vs Melee
Macemen
Mostly fine, some national units shouldnt probably be here though. The line has a hole at the end, but Flailman can cover it, since it is a very powerful unit for its era.
Dog Soldier
Quite clearly armed with an axe, should be in the axe line.
Suggestion: Upgrades into Axeman, lower Movement to 1
Phakak
Clearly a spearman. Belongs in the spear line.
Suggestion: Upgrades into Heavy Spearman
Gladiator
Not sure if this unit should even be upgradeable, since it has the unique ability to join a city...
Bow
Atl-Atl really shouldnt be in this line, Slinger should upgrade directly into Archer. Other than that, there is the Longbowman, who could use a slight buff and Yeoman Archer, who could use a slight nerf (specially that bonus against Javelin units). Rest is fine.
Crossbow
Again mostly fine. Should probably get +25% city defense and Heavy Crossbowman should have his bonus vs Melee reduced to +50%. Cho-Ko-Nu should have its collateral damage nerfed (say max 50% to 2 units).
Javelin
This line has two units in the Bronze age and none at a later point.
Atl-Atl
Id place this unit more squarely in the Javelin line.
Suggestion: Upgrades into Javelineer ONLY
Javelineer
Has +25% vs Animal Units, while other units in this line have +25% vs Wild Animals. This is probably an error.
Skirmisher (Early Skirmisher)
Should be moved up the tech tree and slightly buffed. Since there is no other Skirmisher, the Early part of name can be dropped. Also it should upgrade into something before Musketman.
Suggestion: Requires Engineering, increase Strength to 9, upgrades into Arquebusier
Gunpowder
Inconsistent bonuses. Should probably just be +25% vs Melee units for Ancient Rocketeer, Ancient Hand Cannon and Arquebusier.
With my suggestions, the table should look like this:
Historical note and a suggestion to redefine class roles:
Throughout history, melee combat was dominated by spears and swords. Swords (especially of the large variety) are widely regarded as the best weapons, but they also require the most practice to master. Spears were most commonly used in warfare, since it they are effective in large numbers and spear training isnt that complicated (most of it centers on proper cooperation of a unit). Axes and maces were secondary weapons typically used by lower skilled troops.
This suggestion would de-emphasize the current rock-paper-scissors approach to ancient units and swap their roles around a bit to be slightly more historically accurate.
This means that the MANY national units will need to be altered as well and thats a LOT of work, so this suggestion can wait for the time being (and probably warrants further discussion as well).
Strength 1/2/3/4 means Strength for Stone/Bronze/Medieval/Renaissance unit in that category.
Sword: Good against melee infantry: Strength -/6/9/13, +25% vs Melee
Spear: Good against cavalry: Strength 4/6/8/12, +50% vs Mounted, Wood Spearmen keep Strength 3, but gain full bonuses of the class, +25% vs all Animal units
Axe: Cheap all-rounder: Strength 4/6/9/13, no special bonuses
Blunt: Cheap fodder for attacking cities: Strength 3/5/9/-, +25% City Attack, Flailman upgrades into Halberdier
Bow: Good for defense of cities, crap in forests. Slingers are cheap, Archers less so and Longbowmen are very expensive (a lifetime of practice): Strength 2/5/10/- +25% City Defense, +25% Hill and Peak Defense, -50% in Forest and Jungle, +25% vs Wild Animals
Crossbow: Similar to bow, but better in forests and less diverse costs (on par with Archer): Strength -/6/8/12, +25% against Melee, -25% in Forest and Jungle, +25% vs Wild Animals
Javelin: Cheap, good against bows and little else: Strength 4/5/8/-, +50% vs Missile, +25% vs Wild Animals
Gunpowder: Very expensive, but strongest overall: Strength -/7/12/16, +25% City Defense
Others: No changes to (Spiked) Clubman, Wood Spearman gets all benefits of Spear
Since there are two progenitor units - Stone Thrower and Brute, we have two basic lines: Ranged and Melee. But very quickly, they split into many other lines that rejoin at the Musketman.
Pre-Musketman infantry can thus be (roughly) summed up by the following table:
The horizontal axis describes the approximate era (Bronze refers to both Ancient and Classical) and Strength typical of units in it , while the vertical describes the type of weapon used.
The table doesnt cover the earliest units (pre-stone tool ones)
Since this part contains A LOT of national units, I will address those only in some cases. So without further ado, lets get started:-
Swordsmen
Used as a base point to compare other units against. Nothing special here.
Spearmen
There are two units in this class available in the Stone Age (kind of, Wood Spearman is technically pre-stone age) , TWO again in Bronze Age and none in the Renaissance.
Wood Spearman
This unit is nearly identical to the Stone Spearman. IMO it would be to make it a starting point for both the Javelin and Spear lines, each of which could then go in their own direction.
Suggestion: upgrades into Stone Spearman AND Atl-Atl
Stone Spearman
Suggestion: Remove upgrade into Atl-Atl (see above)
Spearman
The decision to let Spearman upgrade into Light Swordsman strikes me as a little odd, since their roles are very different. Wouldnt Axemen be better for this?
Suggestion: Remove upgrade into Swordsman and give this upgrade option to Axeman and Maceman, upgrades into Heavy Spearman
Phalanx
Bonuses of this unit are inconsistent with other Spear units.
Suggestions: remove +50% bonus vs Melee and +100% bonus vs Chariots, add +50% bonus vs Wild animals and Mounted units, increase Strength to 6.
Pikeman
This unit should be moved up the tech tree and have its stats adjusted accordingly.
Suggestions: Requires Armor Crafting and Invention, increase Strength to 12, upgrades into Musketman
Landsknecht
This units graphics are perfect for plugging a hole in the Axe branch, so it should be moved there (see below). This does rob HRE of its unique unit, but there are many possible replacements (personally I like this one, but any Teutonic/Gothic type knight, riding or walking, will do http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9948 )
Swiss Pikeman
Should be moved up the tech tree, just like the Pikeman.
Suggestions: Requires Armor Crafting and Invention, increase Strength to 12, upgrades into Musketman
Silat
A little atypical spear unit that should also be moved up the Tech tree a bit.
Suggestions: Requires Martial Arts, increase Strength to 10, upgrades into Musketman
Heavy Spearman (Heavy Pikeman)
This unit uses a spear, hence the change of name. Also it would look weird to have
Heavy Pikeman before the normal one. This unit should be available a little sooner.
Suggestion: Requires Smithing, upgrades into Pikeman
Axemen
There is a hole in their line that needs filling.
Gallic Warrior
A little too strong given how early he is available. Also has rather unusual abilities for an axe unit.
Suggestion: Lower Strength to 6, add +25% vs Melee
Heavy Axeman
This unit is suited for plugging the Medieval hole.
Suggestion: Lower Strength to 9, requires Smithing
Halberdier (new unit, kinda)
With Heavy Axeman moved down, this unit will plug the hole at the end of Axe branch. It uses graphics of the Landsknecht.
Stats: Strength 12, +50% vs Melee
Macemen
Mostly fine, some national units shouldnt probably be here though. The line has a hole at the end, but Flailman can cover it, since it is a very powerful unit for its era.
Dog Soldier
Quite clearly armed with an axe, should be in the axe line.
Suggestion: Upgrades into Axeman, lower Movement to 1
Phakak
Clearly a spearman. Belongs in the spear line.
Suggestion: Upgrades into Heavy Spearman
Gladiator
Not sure if this unit should even be upgradeable, since it has the unique ability to join a city...
Bow
Atl-Atl really shouldnt be in this line, Slinger should upgrade directly into Archer. Other than that, there is the Longbowman, who could use a slight buff and Yeoman Archer, who could use a slight nerf (specially that bonus against Javelin units). Rest is fine.
Crossbow
Again mostly fine. Should probably get +25% city defense and Heavy Crossbowman should have his bonus vs Melee reduced to +50%. Cho-Ko-Nu should have its collateral damage nerfed (say max 50% to 2 units).
Javelin
This line has two units in the Bronze age and none at a later point.
Atl-Atl
Id place this unit more squarely in the Javelin line.
Suggestion: Upgrades into Javelineer ONLY
Javelineer
Has +25% vs Animal Units, while other units in this line have +25% vs Wild Animals. This is probably an error.
Skirmisher (Early Skirmisher)
Should be moved up the tech tree and slightly buffed. Since there is no other Skirmisher, the Early part of name can be dropped. Also it should upgrade into something before Musketman.
Suggestion: Requires Engineering, increase Strength to 9, upgrades into Arquebusier
Gunpowder
Inconsistent bonuses. Should probably just be +25% vs Melee units for Ancient Rocketeer, Ancient Hand Cannon and Arquebusier.
With my suggestions, the table should look like this:
Historical note and a suggestion to redefine class roles:
Throughout history, melee combat was dominated by spears and swords. Swords (especially of the large variety) are widely regarded as the best weapons, but they also require the most practice to master. Spears were most commonly used in warfare, since it they are effective in large numbers and spear training isnt that complicated (most of it centers on proper cooperation of a unit). Axes and maces were secondary weapons typically used by lower skilled troops.
This suggestion would de-emphasize the current rock-paper-scissors approach to ancient units and swap their roles around a bit to be slightly more historically accurate.
This means that the MANY national units will need to be altered as well and thats a LOT of work, so this suggestion can wait for the time being (and probably warrants further discussion as well).
Strength 1/2/3/4 means Strength for Stone/Bronze/Medieval/Renaissance unit in that category.
Sword: Good against melee infantry: Strength -/6/9/13, +25% vs Melee
Spear: Good against cavalry: Strength 4/6/8/12, +50% vs Mounted, Wood Spearmen keep Strength 3, but gain full bonuses of the class, +25% vs all Animal units
Axe: Cheap all-rounder: Strength 4/6/9/13, no special bonuses
Blunt: Cheap fodder for attacking cities: Strength 3/5/9/-, +25% City Attack, Flailman upgrades into Halberdier
Bow: Good for defense of cities, crap in forests. Slingers are cheap, Archers less so and Longbowmen are very expensive (a lifetime of practice): Strength 2/5/10/- +25% City Defense, +25% Hill and Peak Defense, -50% in Forest and Jungle, +25% vs Wild Animals
Crossbow: Similar to bow, but better in forests and less diverse costs (on par with Archer): Strength -/6/8/12, +25% against Melee, -25% in Forest and Jungle, +25% vs Wild Animals
Javelin: Cheap, good against bows and little else: Strength 4/5/8/-, +50% vs Missile, +25% vs Wild Animals
Gunpowder: Very expensive, but strongest overall: Strength -/7/12/16, +25% City Defense
Others: No changes to (Spiked) Clubman, Wood Spearman gets all benefits of Spear
Infantry: Musketman and beyond
Musketman
This unit should define standard bonuses of basic gunpowder Infantry. I suggest that they become the eras defenders.
Suggestion: Add +25% City Defense
Rifleman
Suggestion: Add +25% City Defense
Cherokee Rifleman
That +75% bonus vs Animal and Melee units would make this unit better against them than Trench Infantry.
Suggestion: Lower bonus vs Animal and Melee units to +50%
Trench Infantry
That Trench I upgrade is unique to this unit. It should probably be kept by succeeding Infantry units as well.
Suggestion: Add +25% City Defense
Infantry
The +25% vs Gunpowder units is a relic of the time when Grenadier upgraded into Infantry. The recently introduced alternative upgrades dont make much sense (Marines and Paratroopers coexist with normal Infantry and dont replace it).
Suggestions: Remove upgrades into Marine and Paratrooper, add Trench I
Assault Infantry (Modern Infantry)
The unit itself is fine, but it upgrades into a unit with S90, which is a BIG step up that doesnt exist in other unit branches. This unit looks like Vietnam era Infantry, so lets keep it there and introduce one after it. The upgrades into flamethrower units are also a bit weird.
Suggestions: Upgrades into a new Modern Infantry only, add Trench I
Modern Infantry (new unit)
A proper modern infantry unit to match Modern Armor and other such units. Could use one of these graphics:
Specnaz (with AT weapons) http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11366
Israeli forces (with AT weapons) http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8877
Stats: Strength 70, Movement 1, +25% City Defense, Trench I, requires Composites, upgrades into Powered Exoskeleton Infantry
Digger
AFAIK, this should be a Trench Infantry variant, representing Aussie troops of WW1.
Suggestion: Upgrades into Infantry, increase Strength to 30, change tech requirement to Trench Warfare
Marine (Navy SEAL)
Since the F-14 will replace it as US national unit (see planes section above), this unit can be used to represent WW2 era marines.
Stats: 1 first strike, Strength 39, Movement 1, +50% attack vs Siege weapons, starts with Amphibious, upgrades into Assault Marine, requires Amphibious Warfare
Assault Marine (Marine)
This unit represents Vietnam era marines.
Stats: 1 first strike, Strength 55, Movement 1, +50% attack vs Siege weapons, starts with Amphibious, requires Amphibious Warfare and Manufacturing, upgrades into Modern Marine,
Modern Marine
Contemporary marines.
Suggestion: Increase Strength to 75, add +50% attack vs Siege weapons, remove bonus vs Machine Gun and Artillery
Ski Trooper
This is pretty much just a Marine with a couple of Arctic Combat promotions. Does the game really need a SIXTH parallel Infantry line (to add to basic, marines, paratroopers, grenadiers and flamethrowers)? Personally Id just make this into a national unit (Finnish Jääkäri being the obvious choice) and be done with it.
Ancient Grenadier (Arsonist)
This unit can bombard city defenses. An ability shared by neither of of its successors. Personally Id give that ability to the entire Grenadier line and remove the option to upgrade into Flame throwers and alter the name accordingly (the name Arsonist is a leftover from AoE3, where it was just an alternative to Grenadier anyway).
Suggestions: Change name, remove upgrade into Ancient Flame Thrower
Grenadier
Suggestion: Add ability to bombard city defenses (-5%/turn), remove attack and defense bonuses vs Early tank and Tank. Add +25% vs Wheeled and Tracked units
Rifle Grenadier (Modern Grenadier)
Hardly a modern Grenadier. This unit corresponds to grenadiers of WW1-WW2.
Suggestions: Change name, remove current bonuses, add +25% vs Wheeled and Tracked units, add ability to bombard city defenses (-5%/turn)
Early AT Infantry (Bazooka)
Bazooka was just one of the rocket launchers used against tanks during WW2. The unit should also be available sooner and have different stats.
Suggestion: Use these models http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9897
Stats: Strength 35, Immune to First Strikes, +75% vs Wheeled and Tracked units, +25% vs Helicopter units, can bombard city defenses (-7%/turn), targets any Wheeled and Tracked units first in combat outside cities, requires Rocketry
AT Infantry (Anti-Tank)
This unit represents postwar AT weapons.
Suggestion: Use these graphics http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=6452
Stats: Strength 45, Immune to First Strikes, +100% vs Wheeled and Tracked units, +25% vs Helicopter units, can bombard city defenses (-10%/turn), targets any Wheeled and Tracked units first in combat outside cities, requires Guided Weapons
Modern AT Infantry (new unit)
Modern AT infantry. Choose graphics from one of Modern Infantry graphics packs (see above)
Stats: Strength 60, Immune to First Strikes, +100% vs Wheeled and Tracked units,+25% vs Helicopter units, can bombard city defenses (-12%/turn),targets any Wheeled and Tracked units first in combat outside cities, requires Modern Warfare
KEM Infantry (new unit)
Futuristic AT infantry. KEM stands for Kinetic Energy Missile. Uses graphics currently used by EMP SAM Infantry.
Stats: Strength 80, Immune to First Strikes, +100% vs Wheeled and Tracked units, +50% vs Helicopter units, can bombard city defenses (-15%/turn), targets any Wheeled and Tracked units first in combat outside cities, requires Hypersonic Flight
Modern Flamethrower
Note: Modern flamethrowers do exist, but look very different from their WW2 predecessors. to deal with their greatest weakness (shot range) they are essentially rocket launchers firing either thermobaric or incendiary rockets. See video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxQxJPtJthw In this day and age, flamethrowers are simply obsolete (the stats do reflect it though, so theres nothing wrong with the unit itself).
Plasma Thrower
Same as above.
Tesla Infantry
Tesla weapons are a staple of Atompunk. This unit should be there, which means altered stats.
Stats: Strength 70, -100% vs Helicopter units, -50% vs Tracked and Wheeled units, +25% City Defense, requires Automatic Weapons, Atompunk, upgrades into Modern Infantry
Paratrooper
Id move this unit down the tech tree a little bit and lower its Strength.
Suggestion: Lower Strength to 40, increase paradrop range to 8, requires Aviation and Automatic Weapons
Modern Paratrooper
The current upgrade into Dropship effectively makes this unit a dead end.
Suggestion: Increase paradrop range to 12, requires Aviation, Manufacturing and Automatic Weapons, upgrades into Special Forces
Special Forces
Stats are unrelated to anything that comes before or after this unit. Originally I wanted this unit to merge Marine and Paratrooper lines (since actual beach assaults and airborne ops are nowadays done almost exclusively by Special Forces), the introduction of Hi-Tech Marine complicates that a little bit (of course the Hi-Tech Marine can just be a renamed to Hi-Tech Special Forces and become the next step in this line, but lets first see what Is612 does with the future units .
Stats: Strength 80, Movement 2, 1 First Strike, Immune to First Strikes, can withdraw from combat (20% chance), flank attack against all Movement 1 artillery/rams (log ram, battering ram, siege ram, catapult, trebuchet, great bombard, bombard, mortar, culverin, falconet, early artillery, artillery) and also against Railway artillery (it cant really move away and hide on short notice), starts with Amphibious and Blitz, can perform paradrops (range 16), requires Modern Warfare, costs 700 hammers, upgrades into Hi-Tech Special Forces
UNIT TREE (national units excluded)
Brute - > Clubman -> Wood Spearman / Spiked Clubman
Wood Spearman -> Stone Spearman / Atl-Atl
Stone Spearman -> Spearman -> Heavy Spearman -> Pikeman -> Musketman
Atl-Atl -> Javelineer -> Skirmisher -> Arquebusier
Spiked Clubman -> Stone Axeman / Stone Maceman
Stone Maceman -> Maceman -> Flailman -> Musketman
Stone Axeman -> Axeman -> Light Swordsman/Heavy Axeman
Heavy Axeman -> Halberdier -> Musketman
Light Swordsman -> Swordsman -> Heavy Swordsman -> Musketman
Rock Thrower -> Slinger -> Archer -> Light Crossbowman / Longbowman
Light Crossbowman -> Crossbowman -> Heavy Crossbowman -> Musketman
Longbowman -> Arquebusier -> Musketman
Ancient Rocketeer -> Ancient Hand Cannon -> Arquebusier -> Musketman
Musketman -> Rifleman -> Trench Infantry -> Infantry -> Assault Infantry -> Modern Infantry -> Powered Exoskeleton Infantry ->
Marine -> Assault Marine -> Modern Marine -> Special Forces -> Hi-Tech Special Forces ->
Jaakari (Ski Patrol) -> Assault Infantry
Paratrooper -> Modern Paratrooper -> Special Forces
Musketman
This unit should define standard bonuses of basic gunpowder Infantry. I suggest that they become the eras defenders.
Suggestion: Add +25% City Defense
Rifleman
Suggestion: Add +25% City Defense
Cherokee Rifleman
That +75% bonus vs Animal and Melee units would make this unit better against them than Trench Infantry.
Suggestion: Lower bonus vs Animal and Melee units to +50%
Trench Infantry
That Trench I upgrade is unique to this unit. It should probably be kept by succeeding Infantry units as well.
Suggestion: Add +25% City Defense
Infantry
The +25% vs Gunpowder units is a relic of the time when Grenadier upgraded into Infantry. The recently introduced alternative upgrades dont make much sense (Marines and Paratroopers coexist with normal Infantry and dont replace it).
Suggestions: Remove upgrades into Marine and Paratrooper, add Trench I
Assault Infantry (Modern Infantry)
The unit itself is fine, but it upgrades into a unit with S90, which is a BIG step up that doesnt exist in other unit branches. This unit looks like Vietnam era Infantry, so lets keep it there and introduce one after it. The upgrades into flamethrower units are also a bit weird.
Suggestions: Upgrades into a new Modern Infantry only, add Trench I
Modern Infantry (new unit)
A proper modern infantry unit to match Modern Armor and other such units. Could use one of these graphics:
Specnaz (with AT weapons) http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11366
Israeli forces (with AT weapons) http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8877
Stats: Strength 70, Movement 1, +25% City Defense, Trench I, requires Composites, upgrades into Powered Exoskeleton Infantry
Digger
AFAIK, this should be a Trench Infantry variant, representing Aussie troops of WW1.
Suggestion: Upgrades into Infantry, increase Strength to 30, change tech requirement to Trench Warfare
Marine (Navy SEAL)
Since the F-14 will replace it as US national unit (see planes section above), this unit can be used to represent WW2 era marines.
Stats: 1 first strike, Strength 39, Movement 1, +50% attack vs Siege weapons, starts with Amphibious, upgrades into Assault Marine, requires Amphibious Warfare
Assault Marine (Marine)
This unit represents Vietnam era marines.
Stats: 1 first strike, Strength 55, Movement 1, +50% attack vs Siege weapons, starts with Amphibious, requires Amphibious Warfare and Manufacturing, upgrades into Modern Marine,
Modern Marine
Contemporary marines.
Suggestion: Increase Strength to 75, add +50% attack vs Siege weapons, remove bonus vs Machine Gun and Artillery
Ski Trooper
This is pretty much just a Marine with a couple of Arctic Combat promotions. Does the game really need a SIXTH parallel Infantry line (to add to basic, marines, paratroopers, grenadiers and flamethrowers)? Personally Id just make this into a national unit (Finnish Jääkäri being the obvious choice) and be done with it.
Ancient Grenadier (Arsonist)
This unit can bombard city defenses. An ability shared by neither of of its successors. Personally Id give that ability to the entire Grenadier line and remove the option to upgrade into Flame throwers and alter the name accordingly (the name Arsonist is a leftover from AoE3, where it was just an alternative to Grenadier anyway).
Suggestions: Change name, remove upgrade into Ancient Flame Thrower
Grenadier
Suggestion: Add ability to bombard city defenses (-5%/turn), remove attack and defense bonuses vs Early tank and Tank. Add +25% vs Wheeled and Tracked units
Rifle Grenadier (Modern Grenadier)
Hardly a modern Grenadier. This unit corresponds to grenadiers of WW1-WW2.
Suggestions: Change name, remove current bonuses, add +25% vs Wheeled and Tracked units, add ability to bombard city defenses (-5%/turn)
Early AT Infantry (Bazooka)
Bazooka was just one of the rocket launchers used against tanks during WW2. The unit should also be available sooner and have different stats.
Suggestion: Use these models http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9897
Stats: Strength 35, Immune to First Strikes, +75% vs Wheeled and Tracked units, +25% vs Helicopter units, can bombard city defenses (-7%/turn), targets any Wheeled and Tracked units first in combat outside cities, requires Rocketry
AT Infantry (Anti-Tank)
This unit represents postwar AT weapons.
Suggestion: Use these graphics http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=6452
Stats: Strength 45, Immune to First Strikes, +100% vs Wheeled and Tracked units, +25% vs Helicopter units, can bombard city defenses (-10%/turn), targets any Wheeled and Tracked units first in combat outside cities, requires Guided Weapons
Modern AT Infantry (new unit)
Modern AT infantry. Choose graphics from one of Modern Infantry graphics packs (see above)
Stats: Strength 60, Immune to First Strikes, +100% vs Wheeled and Tracked units,+25% vs Helicopter units, can bombard city defenses (-12%/turn),targets any Wheeled and Tracked units first in combat outside cities, requires Modern Warfare
KEM Infantry (new unit)
Futuristic AT infantry. KEM stands for Kinetic Energy Missile. Uses graphics currently used by EMP SAM Infantry.
Stats: Strength 80, Immune to First Strikes, +100% vs Wheeled and Tracked units, +50% vs Helicopter units, can bombard city defenses (-15%/turn), targets any Wheeled and Tracked units first in combat outside cities, requires Hypersonic Flight
Modern Flamethrower
Note: Modern flamethrowers do exist, but look very different from their WW2 predecessors. to deal with their greatest weakness (shot range) they are essentially rocket launchers firing either thermobaric or incendiary rockets. See video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxQxJPtJthw In this day and age, flamethrowers are simply obsolete (the stats do reflect it though, so theres nothing wrong with the unit itself).
Plasma Thrower
Same as above.
Tesla Infantry
Tesla weapons are a staple of Atompunk. This unit should be there, which means altered stats.
Stats: Strength 70, -100% vs Helicopter units, -50% vs Tracked and Wheeled units, +25% City Defense, requires Automatic Weapons, Atompunk, upgrades into Modern Infantry
Paratrooper
Id move this unit down the tech tree a little bit and lower its Strength.
Suggestion: Lower Strength to 40, increase paradrop range to 8, requires Aviation and Automatic Weapons
Modern Paratrooper
The current upgrade into Dropship effectively makes this unit a dead end.
Suggestion: Increase paradrop range to 12, requires Aviation, Manufacturing and Automatic Weapons, upgrades into Special Forces
Special Forces
Stats are unrelated to anything that comes before or after this unit. Originally I wanted this unit to merge Marine and Paratrooper lines (since actual beach assaults and airborne ops are nowadays done almost exclusively by Special Forces), the introduction of Hi-Tech Marine complicates that a little bit (of course the Hi-Tech Marine can just be a renamed to Hi-Tech Special Forces and become the next step in this line, but lets first see what Is612 does with the future units .
Stats: Strength 80, Movement 2, 1 First Strike, Immune to First Strikes, can withdraw from combat (20% chance), flank attack against all Movement 1 artillery/rams (log ram, battering ram, siege ram, catapult, trebuchet, great bombard, bombard, mortar, culverin, falconet, early artillery, artillery) and also against Railway artillery (it cant really move away and hide on short notice), starts with Amphibious and Blitz, can perform paradrops (range 16), requires Modern Warfare, costs 700 hammers, upgrades into Hi-Tech Special Forces
UNIT TREE (national units excluded)
Brute - > Clubman -> Wood Spearman / Spiked Clubman
Wood Spearman -> Stone Spearman / Atl-Atl
Stone Spearman -> Spearman -> Heavy Spearman -> Pikeman -> Musketman
Atl-Atl -> Javelineer -> Skirmisher -> Arquebusier
Spiked Clubman -> Stone Axeman / Stone Maceman
Stone Maceman -> Maceman -> Flailman -> Musketman
Stone Axeman -> Axeman -> Light Swordsman/Heavy Axeman
Heavy Axeman -> Halberdier -> Musketman
Light Swordsman -> Swordsman -> Heavy Swordsman -> Musketman
Rock Thrower -> Slinger -> Archer -> Light Crossbowman / Longbowman
Light Crossbowman -> Crossbowman -> Heavy Crossbowman -> Musketman
Longbowman -> Arquebusier -> Musketman
Ancient Rocketeer -> Ancient Hand Cannon -> Arquebusier -> Musketman
Musketman -> Rifleman -> Trench Infantry -> Infantry -> Assault Infantry -> Modern Infantry -> Powered Exoskeleton Infantry ->
Marine -> Assault Marine -> Modern Marine -> Special Forces -> Hi-Tech Special Forces ->
Jaakari (Ski Patrol) -> Assault Infantry
Paratrooper -> Modern Paratrooper -> Special Forces
I agree that most players won't get to build one, but that is hardly an excuse. And it probably won't be that long until players start reaching advanced eras in their games. Several people are working on that.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Really?JosEPh
That is, IMO, the greatest flaw still in C2C, is that things get so far out of whack by the Industrial Era that it doesn't make much sense to play past that. I don't really have a good solution for that though yet, although fixing later build times and gold levels would be a good start. I'd love ideas on other ways to make the later eras more playable and balanced.
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