Lumber Mills

[GenocideBringer]

What do you folks think of it?

I know a lot of people like to chop down all their forests beforehand. Is this really a great idea? Although a forest square can't be improved for awhile, it is a pretty nice square on its own. Yes, you can chop it for resources, but then you lose the +1 hammers. The only time, though, where such hammers are really important are before mathematics, where it doesn't give a lot. After mathematics, it's useful, but isn't as important.

Of course I'll chop a few...but I think lumber mills, once ya get them, are pretty damn nice.

 

[manu-fan]

Ah. To Chop or Not to Chop, that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler to.....

1. River forest - Chop and build a watermill. Get an additional gold and Watermills get +1H later in the game too.

2. Grassland Hill Forest - Chop and build a mine (especially if by a river). Get more early H that way.

3. Plains Forest - Chop or not depending on what else is in your Fat Cross. If food is abundant, and you want a production city, keep as forest. If food is scarce, chop and farm.

4. Grassland Forest - Chop or not depending on what else is in you Fat Cross. If you're going for a Financial city and have other production, chop and build a cottage. If food is scarce, chop and farm.

Those are just a few ideas based on my play, and of course IMHO. When I get Replacable Parts, I've usually left 1 or 2 forests per city alone given the above guidelines.

Cheers.

 

[GenocideBringer]

Erm...yes, watermills get +1 health...but don't jungles and forests also give health bonuses?

 

[Percy]

Forests + Lumbermills are only +2 when the forest is on hills (because you can get the railroad bonus to mines too), and +3 on grasslands/plains. The commerce bonus is actually not a bonus, but just allows the normal river bonus to work with forests. There is the +0.5 health too, of course.
Now, +2/+3 improvements are not so bad, but there are plenty of others (most notably towns, of course), and they can be in place a looong time before you start your first lumbermill. Add to that the fact you get much needed when chopping them, and i don't think lumbermills are a good thing to have, generally speaking, for your main cities. Now, when you still settle cities post Replaceable Parts, it might have its uses.

 

[manu-fan]

Erm...yes, watermills get +1 health...but don't jungles and forests also give health bonuses?

Sorry. I''m not up on how to use those fancy graphics. By +1H, I mean +1 Hammers.

That is

Hey, I'm now up on how to use those fancy graphics

Cheers.

 

[obsolete]

Erm...yes, watermills get +1 health...but don't jungles and forests also give health bonuses?

Jungles give problems. Look at your output from a tile BEFORE the jungle is removed and compare it to AFTER. Bet you'll see a +1F once you're rid of it.

Forests are far, far different a thing than jungles.

P.S. Everyone who knows me, knows I'm a very big fan of lumber mills. Unfortunatly, we don't get the luxoury of keeping many of them around on Immortal/Diety. And Ironically, those are the levels where we need them the most.

 

[futurehermit]

I'm not a fan of lumber mills. I find that a cottage or a workshop is generally a better improvement.

 

[obsolete]

I would have to see some mathematical evidence on a WS beating a LM.

LM can be placed on flatplains, OR hills. Also benefit +1h from rail-roads.


Then compare the +.5 health from forest & +1 commerce as well in many cases to a WS that fails in this area. Also factor in the issue that a LM can be chop-rushed even still, so you are nesting an emergency load of hammers.

Also, throw in the fact that a WS has to give you a -1F penalty, which means less growth/specialists, which means less production for one element or another. Running SP is not a solution, as it prevents you from running other important civics, and in most cases the UN votes will prevent you from running SP at all.

In any case, if you can show me some good tabulated data on this to change my mind, then I'll probably change my mind. But that is very doubtful, as this would mean having LMs would be dominated by the WS.

I believe the WS was made as a fix-it for when a city failed to have many forests, or was forced to lose them in some way. But I don't see them as being better.

 

[Jet]

in most cases the UN votes will prevent you from running SP at all.

No, not in most cases.

In any case, if you can show me some good tabulated data on this to change my mind

Not to speak for anyone, but I'm sure he'll get right on that.


That said, I like lumbermills, myself. Not as much with the Environmentalism change in BTS, though.

 

[futurehermit]

Well, I'm not going to do the math on cottages. I know you don't like them but pound-for-pound a mature cottage is the best improvement in the game.

I use workshops when I plan on running state property. I use lumbermills always on tundra forests but otherwise no. If a city is really, really hurting for health (don't know why that would be...if it has lots of floodplains all those tiles are going to *eventually* be cottaged) I might keep some forests that could get lumbermills, but frankly by the time lumbermills come online my health problems are usually in order (this has changed somewhat in bts with extra unhealthy now late game if you tech "wrong").

I'm doing this off the top of my head, so please correct me if I'm wrong here:

Grassland workshop: 1f1h; after guilds 1f2h; after chem 1f3h; with state property 2f3h; with caste system 2f4h (also chopped hammers)

Grassland lumbermill: 2f2h; after rr 2f3h (also +.5 health)

Does a lumbermill get any other bonuses? If these guesses are correct then a grassland lumbermill wins out if not in state property, you have to decide if you prefer the chopped hammers or the .5 health with state property in the picture, and with caste system factored in workshops win out.

At the end of the day I think it's a matter of preference and what the situation calls for. But on average I tend to prefer getting the chopped hammers and then laying down workshops in my production cities with a mind to switch into SP later in the game (although now with corporations in the picture that could change).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to lumbermills at all frankly, but I remember doing calculations (more meticulous ones) in warlords and coming to the conclusion that I would always be better chopping and putting down a workshop.

 

[Siaphi94]

there isn't much of a problem chopping down forests since lumbermill is available later in the game. by the time you can do that, you'll be able to build a workshop making +3 production and if you have a certain civic, (i forgot what it was) you don't lose any food, either.

 

[CTH]

I really like lumbermills, they give a nice hammer boost in late game. and it is then you need it the most. And you don't get tied down to certain civics.

 

[GenocideBringer]

Meh.

1) Workshops can get +3 hammers and no effect on food IF you choose State Property, which is a pretty niche civic in my opinion.

2) Lumbermills, with railroads, give +3 hammers over a blank square, as well as +1 commerce when next to a river, don't affect your food income EVER, and give you +.5 health.

3) The forest is giving you +1 production and +.5 health throughout the whole game, before you get the techs required.

 

[Random Oracle]

Meh.

1) Workshops can get +3 hammers and no effect on food IF you choose State Property, which is a pretty niche civic in my opinion.

A niche civic? It has been the ultimate economy civic by far for me in my games before BtS. Granted, my empires have been large, so its benefits would be reduced if you don't have a lot of territory.

BtS changes the balance somewhat and it is my understanding that the developers intended to nerf State Proper by disallowing Corporations under the civic. However, I feel the costs of corporations can be so huge thanks to inflation that State Property is even stronger than before in the current version of BtS.

 

[GenocideBringer]

Meh. It's useful, but unless your empire is really, really, really spread out, Free Market's is more impressive, in my opinion. Then again, I'm not a warmonger, so I generally don't have massive empires.

 

[cabert]

calling SP a niche civic is a bit overboard
Of course if you need a corporation to get aluminium or oil, you cannot run it.
Other than that it is THE civic.

I'm not very experienced in BtS yet, and not at all in its space race (only a cultural victory for me).
But I guess there is little change in the production options.
So here are my ways with forests :
- going for anything other than space, I chop them away without regrets. Troops now are better than anything later, and if I go for cultural I don't get to replaceable parts anyway.
- going for space, I tend to keep more forests around. They have a good output with lumbermills and railroads + the health is good. In the rush for the final parts, i cut everything down (instant replacing them with workshops).

 

[MrCynical]

I've always been a little doubtful about lumbermills as well. The half a health point is simply too little to counterbalance their late appearance and usually weaker output (e.g. than a mine or a workshop, let alone a cottage/rushbuy combo).

Workshops are a little weaker now though in my opinion, since even with the messed up maintenance costs corporations are extremely powerful. Losing that isn't worth a few hammers from being able to run workshops instead of lumbermills. On a flatland production city there therefore might be something to be said for lumbermills, though I'd still question their value compared to cottages (especially given how much earlier you can improve the tile).

 

[Black_Waltz]

I've always been a little doubtful about lumbermills as well. The half a health point is simply too little to counterbalance their late appearance and usually weaker output (e.g. than a mine or a workshop, let alone a cottage/rushbuy combo).

Workshops are a little weaker now though in my opinion, since even with the messed up maintenance costs corporations are extremely powerful. Losing that isn't worth a few hammers from being able to run workshops instead of lumbermills. On a flatland production city there therefore might be something to be said for lumbermills, though I'd still question their value compared to cottages (especially given how much earlier you can improve the tile).

If you're planning to maximise production in a city you can't go much wrong with lumbermills. Yes. It's a bit of a trade off for early rushing for late sustainable production but depending on the terrain it may be your best bet.

 

[DrLaban]

I think lumbermills got stronger when early chopping was made weaker. I often save 2 or 4 forests around my cities for late game health, I think it's worth more than 1 or 2 axemen early game.

 

[futurehermit]

Early game > late game

if those 1-2 axemen help ensure you double your empire early on that is far more important than 1-2 late game health frankly